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  #481  
Old 10-10-17, 11:46 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peak View Post
Isn't the knee moving up a "preliminary" movement, as the pitcher could go to a base (1B for lefties, 3B for righties) instead of proceeding to the pitch? The pitcher's movement towards home would be the "pitching motion". If I use the definition you have above, then he could never throw to a base, due to any movement of the pitcher's front leg in general would indicates a pitching movement.

Not trying to nitpick, but trying to understand this situation. We faced it a few times and I'd like to know it's legality under the rules, one way or another.

Devil's advocate on the rules is this one from MLB Rules 5.07 (d):
"At any time during the pitcher’s preliminary movements and until his natural pitching motion commits him to the pitch, he may throw to any base provided he steps directly toward such base before making the throw."

When does preliminary movement end and natural pitching motion begin? Just because a knee is raised, the pitcher could still go to a base or begin his pitch. Does the preliminary movement end once the pitcher moves towards home? When his foot in the air either breaks beyond the rubber (i.e. Cueto)? Nothing I've seen in the rules stipulate the end of one and the beginning of the other - in regards to raising a knee. Every Ump I have spoke with has different views.
Let's keep it simple here....

From the windup, once he makes a movement that commits him to pitch, he must do so without interruption.
From the set, once he makes a movement that requires him to pitch or throw to a base, he must do so without interruption.

He he fails to meet that criteria, it's illegal. It's not a philosophy, it's not an opinion, it's not what some guys think..... it's the rule.

Anything else is just overthinking this.

Last edited by AllSports12; 10-10-17 at 12:05 PM.
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  #482  
Old 10-24-17, 04:16 PM
Yappi Yappi is offline
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Runner on 1st, batter hits the ball to left center. Runner on rounds second and heads to 3rd.

Throw from left center to 3rd base is a little offline and forces the 3rd baseman to move about 3 feet away from the bag into the runners baseline. Ball gets there about 3 steps before the runner gets there but short hops the 3rd baseman who smothers the ball (loose ball on the ground). Runner slides feet first towards 3rd base but is stopped short of the bag due to the collision with the 3rd baseman on the ground. Runner gets up on their knees and reaches for 3rd base and is tagged out by the 3rd baseman who located and picked up the ball just before the runner could touch the bag.

Is this obstruction?

Just for clarity, the smothered ball and slide were not simultaneous. The ball was mishandled first and the slide did not dislodge or impede the attempted catch.
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  #483  
Old 10-24-17, 04:58 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yappi View Post
Runner on 1st, batter hits the ball to left center. Runner on rounds second and heads to 3rd.

Throw from left center to 3rd base is a little offline and forces the 3rd baseman to move about 3 feet away from the bag into the runners baseline. Ball gets there about 3 steps before the runner gets there but short hops the 3rd baseman who smothers the ball (loose ball on the ground). Runner slides feet first towards 3rd base but is stopped short of the bag due to the collision with the 3rd baseman on the ground. Runner gets up on their knees and reaches for 3rd base and is tagged out by the 3rd baseman who located and picked up the ball just before the runner could touch the bag.

Is this obstruction?

Just for clarity, the smothered ball and slide were not simultaneous. The ball was mishandled first and the slide did not dislodge or impede the attempted catch.
Obstruction

Smothering the ball does not qualify as possession. Blocking access to the base without possession of the ball is the basis for this ruling.
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  #484  
Old 02-17-18, 05:04 PM
Bugsy8875 Bugsy8875 is offline
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At State Umpire Clinic today. Two different things told to me on this situation.

Runner on 2nd base. Right Handed Pitcher in stretch picks up left leg and does not break the plane. Runner takes off for 3rd Base. The pitcher then continues with his motion and throws to 3rd... The ball beats the runner and he is tagged out... Ruling???
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  #485  
Old 02-18-18, 10:12 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bugsy8875 View Post
At State Umpire Clinic today. Two different things told to me on this situation.

Runner on 2nd base. Right Handed Pitcher in stretch picks up left leg and does not break the plane. Runner takes off for 3rd Base. The pitcher then continues with his motion and throws to 3rd... The ball beats the runner and he is tagged out... Ruling???
As described, under NFHS rules, this is legal. There are variations to this that could cause this to be illegal.

Have to see the whole play to properly rule.
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  #486  
Old 02-19-18, 09:22 AM
Bugsy8875 Bugsy8875 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
As described, under NFHS rules, this is legal. There are variations to this that could cause this to be illegal.

Have to see the whole play to properly rule.
This is the situation presented and walked through to several umpires that have done big tournaments games. It was done in different groups and one said I would balk them and the other said it was legal.

One other inconsistency that stuck with me was this situation.

Runners at 2B and 3B. There is an attempted pick off of the runner at 2B and while that runner is going back to 2B, he is obstructed.

One umpire told us that the runner is given third base and the runner at 3B is pushed home.

Another umpire said the runner stays at 2B because there is no base available to give the runner that was obstructed with.

We go to these things to get better and there were some things I picked up on that will help, but to have umpires who have umpired at the highest HS level be inconsistent in understanding the rules, this is not good.


One more just came to mind. I had an instructor during my plate mechanics station tell me not to put the ball in play with my right hand, yet it clearly states in the Blue Book put out by the OHSAA that is what you are supposed to do.
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  #487  
Old 02-19-18, 12:37 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bugsy8875 View Post
This is the situation presented and walked through to several umpires that have done big tournaments games. It was done in different groups and one said I would balk them and the other said it was legal.

One other inconsistency that stuck with me was this situation.

Runners at 2B and 3B. There is an attempted pick off of the runner at 2B and while that runner is going back to 2B, he is obstructed.

One umpire told us that the runner is given third base and the runner at 3B is pushed home.

Another umpire said the runner stays at 2B because there is no base available to give the runner that was obstructed with.

We go to these things to get better and there were some things I picked up on that will help, but to have umpires who have umpired at the highest HS level be inconsistent in understanding the rules, this is not good.


One more just came to mind. I had an instructor during my plate mechanics station tell me not to put the ball in play with my right hand, yet it clearly states in the Blue Book put out by the OHSAA that is what you are supposed to do.

Well, at least you now know....

1) working "big games" does not automatically mean someone knows the rules
2) Who not to listen to

With regards to the play at third..... What was the reasoning for the Balk call? Usually, the guys who say this is a balk try to justify this by claiming the pitcher is throwing to an unoccupied base..... This is a myth and is backed up by Rule, Case Book and Written interpretations. It is perfectly legal to throw to an unoccupied base if there is a play to be made. A steal of third here makes this a play.

As far as the obstruction play, ask yourself this question, if no base is to be awarded because of a preceding runner, what deterrent is there for the defense from purposely holding, tackling, tripping or other forms of impeding the runner? Does anyone really think that in this situation the defense can either get an out or be right where they started with the obstructed runner put back to where he started?

And finally, to your instructor.... ask him politely why his teachings are different than the Blue Book......No need to shove it down his throat, but ask him in the sense of consistency.... if he's offended by this, you know another person who to be careful of.

Last edited by AllSports12; 02-19-18 at 12:50 PM.
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  #488  
Old 02-19-18, 01:38 PM
Bugsy8875 Bugsy8875 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
Well, at least you now know....

1) working "big games" does not automatically mean someone knows the rules
2) Who not to listen to

With regards to the play at third..... What was the reasoning for the Balk call? Usually, the guys who say this is a balk try to justify this by claiming the pitcher is throwing to an unoccupied base..... This is a myth and is backed up by Rule, Case Book and Written interpretations. It is perfectly legal to throw to an unoccupied base if there is a play to be made. A steal of third here makes this a play.

As far as the obstruction play, ask yourself this question, if no base is to be awarded because of a preceding runner, what deterrent is there for the defense from purposely holding, tackling, tripping or other forms of impeding the runner? Does anyone really think that in this situation the defense can either get an out or be right where they started with the obstructed runner put back to where he started?

And finally, to your instructor.... ask him politely why his teachings are different than the Blue Book......No need to shove it down his throat, but ask him in the sense of consistency.... if he's offended by this, you know another person who to be careful of.
The reason given was the unoccupied base and the runner was probably going to be far away from third by the time the ball got there.. Just paraphrasing what they said, not that I agree.

A follow up thought I did have on this situation was a runner at first is stealing second. Can a pitcher then jump turn and throw to second base without penalty?

The obstruction situation seemed confusing when it was discussed. Awarding a base and penalizing the offending team makes sense as your question to me was phrased. I was just surprised by the inconsistency to which a rule like that is mistaken. The person who talked about only being able to award a base if available was one of the main guys running the clinic. I am just trying to learn and get better, didn't like the inconsistency in some of the instruction.
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  #489  
Old 02-19-18, 02:08 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bugsy8875 View Post
The reason given was the unoccupied base and the runner was probably going to be far away from third by the time the ball got there.. Just paraphrasing what they said, not that I agree.
2013 NFHS Baseball Rule Interpretation...

SITUATION 19: The runner at first base takes off in an attempt to steal second base. The pitcher legally makes a spin move and throws to unoccupied second base to easily retire the stealing runner. The third-base coach argues, saying the pitcher cannot throw to an unoccupied base. RULING: A pitcher may throw or feint a throw to an unoccupied base in an attempt to put out or drive back a runner. The out stands. (6-2-4b)

^^ That should dispel the myth. The distance the runner is away from the bag has no bearing on this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bugsy8875 View Post
A follow up thought I did have on this situation was a runner at first is stealing second. Can a pitcher then jump turn and throw to second base without penalty?
See above.......it's the exact play

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bugsy8875 View Post
The obstruction situation seemed confusing when it was discussed. Awarding a base and penalizing the offending team makes sense as your question to me was phrased. I was just surprised by the inconsistency to which a rule like that is mistaken. The person who talked about only being able to award a base if available was one of the main guys running the clinic. I am just trying to learn and get better, didn't like the inconsistency in some of the instruction.
That's where you develop the skills to ask the instructor one on one or via e-mail citing the rule or mechanic specifically to this person. If he persists in teaching contrary to the rule or the mechanic it's time to learn to screen out the incorrect stuff and find the guys out there that do it the right way. Once you find them, develop a relationship with them and use that relationship to learn from them.
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