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  #61  
Old 10-09-18, 07:29 PM
SECfb SECfb is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eastisbest View Post
It does help, mainly because I was forgetting that Ginn Academy and Glenville are different schools.



I think you (and others) were having difficulty for the same reason as me. The problematic players were attending Ginn Academy, not Glenville, but they were playing for Glenville even though they didn't live in that district.
Yes, I was just thinking as the Ginn Acadamy being tied in with Glenville, but they are classified as two totally different schools. My thought were also Ginn puts this school up for these kids, you would think the kids that do go could at least play football for Glenville, especially since the academy has no sports.So getting down to it, to do it right, I guess the kids that wanted to play for Glenville, should have just enrolled there to begin with.
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  #62  
Old 10-09-18, 07:41 PM
James x2 James x2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tribefan23 View Post
Sounds like these kids were all attending Ginn Academy. Ginn Academy doesn't have a football program (It's basically an all boys school for at-risk kids, kinda like the LeBron James school that opened in Akron). Cardale Jones is the most "famous" player that attended Ginn Academy. Anyone that lives in any part of Cleveland can attend Ginn Academy. However, technically you are only allowed to play sports for the area that you live in. Many kids that lived in the areas of John Hay, Collinwood, Whitney Young and other areas with terrible football programs all went to Ginn Academy so that they could just play for Glenville (can't really blame them). It's kinda like if you are home schooled, you can't just pick and choose what school you want to play sports, you're supposed to play for your home district or home high school. So if a student attends Ginn Academy but lives in the neighborhood that attends Whitney Young, they're supposed to play for WY.

Glenville and Ginn Academy aren't too far apart, so a lot of the boys that attend Ginn Academy already live in the neighborhood that would go to Glenville anyways. Unfortunately, a small number of players dont, and that's what screwed them. I'm sure this has been happening for years though, not sure why it's being investigated now.

Hope this helps
Ginn Academy is just off Saranac/St.Clair in Collinwood.Near E.152nd.Glenville is near St.Clair and E.105th.They are not in the same neighborhood.Collinwood is about 2mi. away.Glenville is easily 15min with traffic lights.Glenville is a few miles north of the university circle -Case Western campus area.Ginn is a shorter,easier drive to Euclid just down St.Clair.
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  #63  
Old 10-09-18, 07:53 PM
SECfb SECfb is offline
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Now what games this year, did these players participate in? I am sure we should here about forfeits. The OSHAA most likely givrs out losses on the schedule for this
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  #64  
Old 10-09-18, 08:12 PM
bucksman bucksman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bennies'01 View Post
I see what you're saying and now that I think about it you may be correct, but I think it's messy. Consider this hypothetical: If Collinwood dropped football next season, would kids attending Collinwood would still have the option to play football at another school in CMSD? Or does the OHSAA make districts distinguish between "neighborhood schools" (like Collinwood) and "magnet schools" (like Ginn Academy), and if a neighborhood school doesn't have a sport, students attending are out of luck, but if a magnet school doesn't have a sport, a student attending such a school can play for their home school if they have that sport?
I think that is incorrect.

If a "neighborhood" school, or for that matter a public high school in a single-HS district, does not sponsor a sport the kid cannot go elsewhere and play. If a private or magnet high school does not sponsor a sport, the kid can play at their "home" school.
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  #65  
Old 10-09-18, 08:29 PM
Sykotyk Sykotyk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SECfb View Post
Now what games this year, did these players participate in? I am sure we should here about forfeits. The OSHAA most likely givrs out losses on the schedule for this
In their first release, they only mentioned John Marshall forfeits. Glenville is just getting a postseason ban and probation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bucksman View Post
I think that is incorrect.

If a "neighborhood" school, or for that matter a public high school in a single-HS district, does not sponsor a sport the kid cannot go elsewhere and play. If a private or magnet high school does not sponsor a sport, the kid can play at their "home" school.

Okay, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Ginn Academy start out utilizing space AT Glenville's campus? And then move to their own separate building once it was up and running? Or am I not remembering its history right?
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  #66  
Old 10-09-18, 08:36 PM
Bennies'01 Bennies'01 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SECfb View Post
Yes, I was just thinking as the Ginn Acadamy being tied in with Glenville, but they are classified as two totally different schools. My thought were also Ginn puts this school up for these kids, you would think the kids that do go could at least play football for Glenville, especially since the academy has no sports.So getting down to it, to do it right, I guess the kids that wanted to play for Glenville, should have just enrolled there to begin with.
Or perhaps label/link Ginn Academy as being part of Glenville? John Hay has a number of smaller schools within its building and I believe they're somewhat autonomous but all still technically part of the same school, at least as far as the OHSAA is concerned.
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  #67  
Old 10-09-18, 08:42 PM
Bennies'01 Bennies'01 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucksman View Post
I think that is incorrect.

If a "neighborhood" school, or for that matter a public high school in a single-HS district, does not sponsor a sport the kid cannot go elsewhere and play. If a private or magnet high school does not sponsor a sport, the kid can play at their "home" school.
Initially I wasn't making the connection but now I believe you're right. It's akin to a small rural high school that doesn't sponsor football. A student attending that school couldn't just decide to play football for a school in another district while still attending his home district school. In a larger district like Cleveland, particularly since they do push intra-district choice, in some ways it's sort of an issue of semantics in labelling some schools magnet schools and others not. It becomes even more confusing when some of the magnet schools have a full complement of sports programs, including football.
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  #68  
Old 10-09-18, 08:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bennies'01 View Post
Or perhaps label/link Ginn Academy as being part of Glenville? John Hay has a number of smaller schools within its building and I believe they're somewhat autonomous but all still technically part of the same school, at least as far as the OHSAA is concerned.
Always assumed they were labeled together anyway. Until today. Lol
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  #69  
Old 10-10-18, 12:24 AM
erdna erdna is offline
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Just change the name to Arch Bishop Ginn Academy or Cardinal Ginn Academy and then you can get any player in the state...problem solved!
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  #70  
Old 10-10-18, 01:07 AM
tom 48 tom 48 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erdna View Post
just change the name to arch bishop ginn academy or cardinal ginn academy and then you can get any player in the state...problem solved!
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
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  #71  
Old 10-10-18, 02:22 AM
eastisbest eastisbest is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom 48 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by erdna
just change the name to arch bishop ginn academy or cardinal ginn academy and then you can get any player in the state...problem solved!
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

Which nun left the stick in you? It was funny and oh so correct so what's the complaint?
Unfortunately, Coach Ginn would have to die to begin the process but I think we could come up with a miracle or two he's involved in. St. G. Academy.
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  #72  
Old 10-10-18, 02:31 AM
tom 48 tom 48 is offline
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Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Yawn. So predictable. Get some new material.

Last edited by tom 48; 10-10-18 at 05:54 AM.
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  #73  
Old 10-10-18, 04:41 AM
E.S. Furgeson E.S. Furgeson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erdna View Post
Just change the name to Arch Bishop Ginn Academy or Cardinal Ginn Academy and then you can get any player in the state...problem solved!


Well played. You could have old, fat, half drunk alumni go to CYO games and locL middle school contests.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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  #74  
Old 10-10-18, 07:20 AM
scbuckeye99 scbuckeye99 is offline
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As an athletic admin in south carolina we have this same rule. If a kid attends school A but lives in school B's attendance zone they can plan football at school B if school A does not field football. We also have this rule for Home School children who don't have sanctioned athletics, they can play for the school they would've gone to have not they been home schooled. Down here this sort of rule applies MOSTLY to charter school kids like the ones at Ginn Academy.
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  #75  
Old 10-10-18, 08:09 AM
Sykotyk Sykotyk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scbuckeye99 View Post
As an athletic admin in south carolina we have this same rule. If a kid attends school A but lives in school B's attendance zone they can plan football at school B if school A does not field football. We also have this rule for Home School children who don't have sanctioned athletics, they can play for the school they would've gone to have not they been home schooled. Down here this sort of rule applies MOSTLY to charter school kids like the ones at Ginn Academy.
Pennsylvania and West Virginia have that same rule for homeschool kids. No need for teams like Columbus Crusaders and the like in those states.
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  #76  
Old 10-10-18, 10:53 AM
Bennies'01 Bennies'01 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sykotyk View Post
Pennsylvania and West Virginia have that same rule for homeschool kids. No need for teams like Columbus Crusaders and the like in those states.
Ohio has the same rule for charter school and home school students as well. It's a fair rule, but I think it really complicates how the division enrollments are calculated. In fact, maybe some people remember that a few years ago the OHSAA was going to count charter school students against their neighborhood school's enrollment, which was going to wreak havoc on urban school divisional placements. The backlash was enough that they changed their minds, but there's still a problem when you have, what, maybe a few hundred high school kids living in Glenville's attendance zone attending charter or magnet schools but eligible to play football for the Tarblooders without counting against their enrollment number.
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  #77  
Old 10-10-18, 11:37 AM
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It appears the home school kids do not count in the base enrollment, but what tier do they count in the CB adjustments?
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  #78  
Old 10-10-18, 11:42 AM
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AD’s in the large districts need to be on top of the rules. Rules for non OHSAA / charter schools (Cleveland Ginn) differ from OHSAA schools that don’t offer a specific sport (Cleveland MLK).
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  #79  
Old 10-10-18, 11:56 AM
tribefan23 tribefan23 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EagleFan View Post
It appears the home school kids do not count in the base enrollment, but what tier do they count in the CB adjustments?
I was intrigued by this so I looked it up on the OHSAA website.

**Students Participating Per State Law (HomeEducated,
Community/STEM, Non-Public)
Even if these students and his/her parents DO live in your district, they should be counted as Tier 1 NonEnrolled as a consequence for not being included in
the Initial Enrollment Count (i.e. EMIS).

So basically, home schooled students count as 1 for CB, which is kinda weird because they technically reside in the district that they play sports.

For what it's worth, Glenville has a CB number of 16, which probably means that 16 of their football players attend Ginn Academy (or another Cleveland HS but live in the Glenville area, probably Ginn though)
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  #80  
Old 10-10-18, 11:59 AM
tribefan23 tribefan23 is offline
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Glenville reports 317 boys with a CB number of 16. Surprisingly, JFK actually has a higher CB number than Glenville for football. John Marshall's CB number is 17
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  #81  
Old 10-10-18, 01:43 PM
erdna erdna is offline
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Originally Posted by tom 48 View Post
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
Truth hurts....
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  #82  
Old 10-10-18, 02:13 PM
JJBulldog JJBulldog is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erdna View Post
Just change the name to Arch Bishop Ginn Academy or Cardinal Ginn Academy and then you can get any player in the state...problem solved!
Either that or hire Massillon's attorney Lee Plakas. Hes undefeated against the OHSAA LOL
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  #83  
Old 10-10-18, 03:28 PM
eastisbest eastisbest is offline
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Well ultimately, it's a shame. And given how much it took to make sense of it here (all reasonably non-judgemental for once) I guess these multiple places to attend school does make the obvious, not obvious. I would expect this to hit urban areas more?


Warning sent but I doubt this is the only place making this mistake. I'm presuming a mistake and not a warning ignored? At some point if they find this "mistake" is prevalent in other areas for similar reasons, I hope some minor amnesty comes to play. If they were warned and continued, sure heads roll.



Who figured it out?
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  #84  
Old 10-10-18, 03:55 PM
the123kidz the123kidz is offline
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Originally Posted by eastisbest View Post
Well ultimately, it's a shame. And given how much it took to make sense of it here (all reasonably non-judgemental for once) I guess these multiple places to attend school does make the obvious, not obvious. I would expect this to hit urban areas more?


Warning sent but I doubt this is the only place making this mistake. I'm presuming a mistake and not a warning ignored? At some point if they find this "mistake" is prevalent in other areas for similar reasons, I hope some minor amnesty comes to play. If they were warned and continued, sure heads roll.



Who figured it out?
Someone had to have filed a complaint against them. They do not just randomly investigate programs.
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  #85  
Old 10-10-18, 04:42 PM
EagleSE EagleSE is offline
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May have been mentioned before, but it's interesting there was no mention of forfeits for Glenville HS, but it seems that John Marshall forfeited 2 games for the same infraction.
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  #86  
Old 10-10-18, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by EagleSE View Post
May have been mentioned before, but it's interesting there was no mention of forfeits for Glenville HS, but it seems that John Marshall forfeited 2 games for the same infraction.
Are they trying to protect Glenville's Senate League winning streak?
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  #87  
Old 10-10-18, 05:21 PM
NeoFB18 NeoFB18 is offline
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How does this play out? How many kids went to the Ginn Academy to play football at Glenville? How many will now end up at Glenville so they can continue their football careers? How many go back to their home schools? Does Ginn Academy start to lose students?
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  #88  
Old 10-11-18, 06:09 AM
tribefan23 tribefan23 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EagleSE View Post
May have been mentioned before, but it's interesting there was no mention of forfeits for Glenville HS, but it seems that John Marshall forfeited 2 games for the same infraction.
It's not the same infraction.

John Marshall's football team had students that attended another Cleveland HS that also had a football team (for example, a student attended school at JFK, which has a team, but played for John Marshall).

Glenville's football team has some students that attend another Cleveland HS (Ginn Academy) that does NOT have a football team, but those students live in a neighborhood that would attend a school other than Glenville that DOES have a football team (Collinwood, John Hay, etc). Therefore, those students should be playing for their neighborhood school's football team, not Glenville.

Re-read the thread if you're confused as to why Glenville isn't forfeiting games and John Marshall is. Different situations. The OHSAA statements put out also clearly explain the difference between the schools.

Here is a statement that sums it up:

"Per OHSAA, the difference in the penalties given to John Marshall and Glenville is a result of the eligibility of the affected students. In John Marshall's case, the school was allowing students who attend a non-traditional high school in the district to play football and soccer at the school. The school those students attend, however, does offer sports, making them ineligible to participate at any other CMSD school.

As for Glenville, the students attended a different non-traditional high school, which does not offer any sports. As such, they are allowed to participate in athletics at the CMSD high school located closest to the students' residence, but were improperly assigned to Glenville due to an administrative error."
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  #89  
Old 10-11-18, 06:12 AM
tribefan23 tribefan23 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoFB18 View Post
How does this play out? How many kids went to the Ginn Academy to play football at Glenville? How many will now end up at Glenville so they can continue their football careers? How many go back to their home schools? Does Ginn Academy start to lose students?
I'm sure Ted Ginn got a lot of students to go to Ginn thinking that they could just play for him at Glenville. The problem is that, as we saw, a lot of these kids live in the Collinwood neighborhood (which is the next closest HS to Ginn). I dont think Teddy is the brightest guy out there.

I envision we will see a lot of football players "move" to the Glenville neighborhood this winter.......
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  #90  
Old 10-11-18, 11:38 AM
Cali_Eagle Cali_Eagle is offline
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Originally Posted by Mr. Slippery View Post
Are they trying to protect Glenville's Senate League winning streak?
You bet they are. Glenville will never forfeit any games until such time as the streak ends with an actual loss on the field. They might get any penalty in the rule book until that time but a forfeit of a game won't be one of them. Look at last season (or two years ago) when they were going to have to forfeit games, that got changed to something else PDQ. JMHO.
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