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  #31  
Old 10-09-18, 09:28 AM
SECfb SECfb is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Football 101 View Post
exactly - and SECfb - not saying I disagree about the private school deal - I just think that is a different argument and not relevant to this case
Yes I understand that point. I was just throwing a add on. The main point though was in my first part though. Open enrollment should be, if you live in one public district, you still have the option of enrolling at the open enrollment school, without even moving whether it is for academics, or sports. That is this case I believe
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  #32  
Old 10-09-18, 09:30 AM
playboi12 playboi12 is offline
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Originally Posted by tribefan23 View Post
Sounds like these kids were all attending Ginn Academy. Ginn Academy doesn't have a football program (It's basically an all boys school for at-risk kids, kinda like the LeBron James school that opened in Akron). Cardale Jones is the most "famous" player that attended Ginn Academy. Anyone that lives in any part of Cleveland can attend Ginn Academy. However, technically you are only allowed to play sports for the area that you live in. Many kids that lived in the areas of John Hay, Collinwood, Whitney Young and other areas with terrible football programs all went to Ginn Academy so that they could just play for Glenville (can't really blame them). It's kinda like if you are home schooled, you can't just pick and choose what school you want to play sports, you're supposed to play for your home district or home high school. So if a student attends Ginn Academy but lives in the neighborhood that attends Whitney Young, they're supposed to play for WY.

Glenville and Ginn Academy aren't too far apart, so a lot of the boys that attend Ginn Academy already live in the neighborhood that would go to Glenville anyways. Unfortunately, a small number of players dont, and that's what screwed them. I'm sure this has been happening for years though, not sure why it's being investigated now.

Hope this helps

I get it, But I thought Cleveland Public was intra-district open enrollment? Is that not the case? Or do you still have to play for your neighborhood school if you attend a school like Ginn?
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  #33  
Old 10-09-18, 09:51 AM
tribefan23 tribefan23 is offline
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This also isn't the first time Glenville has been in trouble for ineligible players. They almost had to vacate 2 wins 2 years ago. Not sure how long OHSAA will let the antics continue over there.

https://www.ignatiuswildcats.com/new...le/show/713422
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  #34  
Old 10-09-18, 09:54 AM
Bennies'01 Bennies'01 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tribefan23 View Post
This isn't an open enrollment conversation. This is a CMSD issue. CMSD is one large district with many high schools. We aren't talking about anyone recruiting outside of the district. Not sure why people would even bring up private schools into this thread, unless you have no clue how the education in large cities like Cleveland is split up. If you live in a certain neighborhood of a city, you go to that High School. It's like that in most big cities. The OHSAA wants to keep this rule because they don't want all of the good athletes in a big city to go one school, thus making the other 9 schools in Cleveland terrible. This is more of a competitive balance issue than open enrollment really.

Since Ginn Academy's closest CMSD school that has football is Collinwood, most of the students that go to Ginn probably live in the neightborhood that typically would go there, thus making these students have to play sports for Collinwood. The other closest is John Hay. It's not rocket science.
Good post and explanation.

At this point I wonder if CMSD would be better off consolidating its football teams into maybe three or four programs schools in each part of the city. This would then allow stronger programs (including JV and freshmen teams) to be developed rather than having nine programs with vastly varying ability levels. CMSD probably could/should do the same for some of the other sports programs, but football makes the most sense right of the bat considering the nature of the sport.
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  #35  
Old 10-09-18, 09:55 AM
tribefan23 tribefan23 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by playboi12 View Post
I get it, But I thought Cleveland Public was intra-district open enrollment? Is that not the case? Or do you still have to play for your neighborhood school if you attend a school like Ginn?
Technically CMSD isn't intra-district open enrollment at all. I believe there are extenuating circumstances, but for 99% of the residents, wherever you live is where you go to HS (or at least, that's your "home high school" where you are allowed to play sports). There are STEM high schools and other schools like Ginn Academy scattered throughout Cleveland that don't have athletics, so those students have to play for whatever school they would normally attend. Those schools are still public high schools in CMSD. It's sort of like being home schooled, or if you were to attend a private school that didn't have athletics. You can still play, just have to play where you would if you werent home schooled or at a private.
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  #36  
Old 10-09-18, 09:59 AM
Bennies'01 Bennies'01 is offline
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Originally Posted by SECfb View Post
At least you understand. A lot of private school backers don't want to see that way
There are major issues in regards to what "open enrollment" means for public schools versus private schools and how it affects divisional placement, but this isn't really one of them. CMSD has intra-district open enrollment, so in reality any kid that wants to play football for Glenville should just enroll at Glenville. In the early days, before Ginn Academy, I'm pretty sure that's exactly how Glenville aggregated its football talent from around (and outside of) the city.

Another option would be for CMSD to house Ginn Academy at Glenville and say that it's a special school/program as part of Glenville. Thus every student attending Ginn Academy would technically be attending Glenville. But there are academic complications with that strategy.
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  #37  
Old 10-09-18, 10:05 AM
Bennies'01 Bennies'01 is offline
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Originally Posted by tribefan23 View Post
Technically CMSD isn't intra-district open enrollment at all. I believe there are extenuating circumstances, but for 99% of the residents, wherever you live is where you go to HS (or at least, that's your "home high school" where you are allowed to play sports). There are STEM high schools and other schools like Ginn Academy scattered throughout Cleveland that don't have athletics, so those students have to play for whatever school they would normally attend. Those schools are still public high schools in CMSD. It's sort of like being home schooled, or if you were to attend a private school that didn't have athletics. You can still play, just have to play where you would if you werent home schooled or at a private.
You may know better than I do, but I thought that more recently (since say around 2012 and the Transformation Plan) CMSD basically had a school choice free-for-all, even with traditionally neighborhood schools.
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  #38  
Old 10-09-18, 10:10 AM
tribefan23 tribefan23 is offline
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Originally Posted by Bennies'01 View Post
You may know better than I do, but I thought that more recently (since say around 2012 and the Transformation Plan) CMSD basically had a school choice free-for-all, even with traditionally neighborhood schools.
I did some more research and CMSD does have school-choice to certain extent, but most of the "good schools" fill up quickly, leaving everyone else to attend their neighborhood school. The "school choice" thing they implemented mostly applies to students who want to attend a STEM HS in cleveland or kids that "qualify for schools like Ginn Academy. Most people aren't using the school choice thing for athletics.

I believe many students/parents do have a choice of which school they can attend, but the rule is that if they attend a school like Ginn Academy that doesn't have athletics, they have to participate in athletics for the school that they would be enrolled in based on where they live. They can't go to Ginn Academy and choose to play sports at Glenville if they live in, say, the neighborhood that would typically go to John Hay. This is the main issue at hand.
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  #39  
Old 10-09-18, 10:22 AM
hammer89 hammer89 is offline
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I don't understand why people think the OHSAA has it out for Glenville, or anyone for that matter. "this doesnt happen to Hoban!"

Really? did you forget 2016 already?

https://www.ohio.com/akron/sports/oh...-football-team

Cleveland had multiple schools get essentially kicked out of the OHSAA last year. Collinwood, MLK, Jane Addams. That caused Cleveland and the OHSAA to do a joint look at what else was going wrong, and this is what they found.
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  #40  
Old 10-09-18, 10:39 AM
SECfb SECfb is offline
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Originally Posted by hammer89 View Post
I don't understand why people think the OHSAA has it out for Glenville, or anyone for that matter. "this doesnt happen to Hoban!"

Really? did you forget 2016 already?

https://www.ohio.com/akron/sports/oh...-football-team

Cleveland had multiple schools get essentially kicked out of the OHSAA last year. Collinwood, MLK, Jane Addams. That caused Cleveland and the OHSAA to do a joint look at what else was going wrong, and this is what they found.
Slap on the wrist fof Hoban. Glenville got nailed big time. What Glenville did should be fine, as long as they are an open enrollment school. OSHAA has some bent rules. That is why a lot of people don't like them. They are bad news. That is the whole idea of having open enrollment so kids can attend that school, instead of the school district they live in
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  #41  
Old 10-09-18, 10:41 AM
tribefan23 tribefan23 is offline
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Originally Posted by SECfb View Post
Slap on the wrist fof Hoban. Glenville got nailed big time. What Glenville did should be fine, as long as they are an open enrollment school. OSHAA has some bent rules. That is why a lot of people don't like them. They are bad news. That is the whole idea of having open enrollment so kids can attend that school, instead of the school district they live in
Read some of my posts. It's not about open enrollment. You're missing the entire issue
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  #42  
Old 10-09-18, 10:45 AM
Football 101 Football 101 is offline
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Kids live in district A
want to go to school NOT called Ginn Academy
do not live in district of glenville
go to a private school
private school has no football
Kids have to play for the public school they live in

these kids thought they could pick private school and which school they play for

can't do that - they could have enrolled at ginn academy, they could move to the district of glenville

not hard - prolly lots more will be uncovered as they look hard at it.

Never understood why guys can't just win with the kids that live in their district. I do not believe no one knew. Good Luck to all
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  #43  
Old 10-09-18, 11:03 AM
SECfb SECfb is offline
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Originally Posted by tribefan23 View Post
Read some of my posts. It's not about open enrollment. You're missing the entire issue
Tell me what entire issue I am missing then?
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  #44  
Old 10-09-18, 11:08 AM
tribefan23 tribefan23 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SECfb View Post
Tell me what entire issue I am missing then?
Copied from my previous posts:

Sounds like these kids were all attending Ginn Academy. Ginn Academy doesn't have a football program (It's basically an all boys school for at-risk kids, kinda like the LeBron James school that opened in Akron). Cardale Jones is the most "famous" player that attended Ginn Academy. Anyone that lives in any part of Cleveland can attend Ginn Academy. However, technically you are only allowed to play sports for the area that you live in. Many kids that lived in the areas of John Hay, Collinwood, Whitney Young and other areas with terrible football programs all went to Ginn Academy so that they could just play for Glenville (can't really blame them). It's kinda like if you are home schooled, you can't just pick and choose what school you want to play sports, you're supposed to play for your home district or home high school. So if a student attends Ginn Academy but lives in the neighborhood that attends Whitney Young, they're supposed to play for WY.

Glenville and Ginn Academy aren't too far apart, so a lot of the boys that attend Ginn Academy already live in the neighborhood that would go to Glenville anyways. Unfortunately, a small number of players dont, and that's what screwed them. I'm sure this has been happening for years though, not sure why it's being investigated now.

I did some more research and CMSD does have school-choice to certain extent, but most of the "good schools" fill up quickly, leaving everyone else to attend their neighborhood school. The "school choice" thing they implemented mostly applies to students who want to attend a STEM HS in cleveland or kids that "qualify for schools like Ginn Academy. Most people aren't using the school choice thing for athletics.

I believe many students/parents do have a choice of which school they can attend, but the rule is that if they attend a school like Ginn Academy that doesn't have athletics, they have to participate in athletics for the school that they would be enrolled in based on where they live. They can't go to Ginn Academy and choose to play sports at Glenville if they live in, say, the neighborhood that would typically go to John Hay. This is the main issue at hand.

There ya go.
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  #45  
Old 10-09-18, 11:09 AM
Bennies'01 Bennies'01 is offline
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Originally Posted by tribefan23 View Post
I did some more research and CMSD does have school-choice to certain extent, but most of the "good schools" fill up quickly, leaving everyone else to attend their neighborhood school. The "school choice" thing they implemented mostly applies to students who want to attend a STEM HS in cleveland or kids that "qualify for schools like Ginn Academy. Most people aren't using the school choice thing for athletics.

I believe many students/parents do have a choice of which school they can attend, but the rule is that if they attend a school like Ginn Academy that doesn't have athletics, they have to participate in athletics for the school that they would be enrolled in based on where they live. They can't go to Ginn Academy and choose to play sports at Glenville if they live in, say, the neighborhood that would typically go to John Hay. This is the main issue at hand.
Yeah I get all of that, but my point is that if Ginn really wanted a great player who lives in the Rhodes zone or the Kennedy zone to come play football for him, I believe that those kids should have no problem open-enrolling at Glenville considering it's not really a highly-desired CMSD school like some of the others. And Glenville has a football team, they'd be eligible to play for the Tarblooders. That seems like the obvious method for them to get players from other school zones to legally be able to play for Glenville. According to the rules, any student attending Ginn Academy, a school without a football team, would have to play football for their home school, so it seems like a massive administrative error to put kids who attended Ginn but didn't live in Glenville on the Glenville team.

In other words, it should be pretty easy for Glenville to get the best players from around the city on the field if that's still how they operate.
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  #46  
Old 10-09-18, 11:22 AM
tribefan23 tribefan23 is offline
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Originally Posted by Bennies'01 View Post
Yeah I get all of that, but my point is that if Ginn really wanted a great player who lives in the Rhodes zone or the Kennedy zone to come play football for him, I believe that those kids should have no problem open-enrolling at Glenville considering it's not really a highly-desired CMSD school like some of the others. And Glenville has a football team, they'd be eligible to play for the Tarblooders. That seems like the obvious method for them to get players from other school zones to legally be able to play for Glenville. According to the rules, any student attending Ginn Academy, a school without a football team, would have to play football for their home school, so it seems like a massive administrative error to put kids who attended Ginn but didn't live in Glenville on the Glenville team.

In other words, it should be pretty easy for Glenville to get the best players from around the city on the field if that's still how they operate.

Unfortunately this isnt the first gaffe for CMSD, or Glenville specifically, so they don't appear to have the smartest admins or coaches over there. Since the name Ginn has become synonymous with Glenville over the last 2 decades, maybe they thought the state would look the other way.
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  #47  
Old 10-09-18, 01:12 PM
Sykotyk Sykotyk is offline
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This is a bit of an odd situation. If CMSD were 10 different school districts with open enrollment (and Glenville/Ginn were a one school/two-campus setup a la Youngstown Chaney/East until this year), enrolling at a new school would be no issue with instant eligibility.

The problem is that since CMSD _IS_ one district with multiple schools, both with and without football, with and without attendance zones, so OHSAA treats them differently. A setup very few districts in the entire state have to deal with (basically just the major cities). So, a kid can enroll at Glenville and play for Glenville, but if they enroll at Ginn Academy, who doesn't have football, they have to play at their home zone's school.

But, if Glenville/Ginn were their own district, they could operate like Youngstown has done for years with Chaney and East as a one school/two campus setup for OHSAA purposes and anyone open enrolling to either could then play with no issues.

The curious part is when this became an issue. Because it never appeared that Ginn Academy was ONLY enrolling Glenville students and it was well known kids were attending Ginn to play FOR GINN at Glenville.

Did a rule change about open enrolling intra-district with OHSAA I missed somewhere?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bennies'01 View Post
Good post and explanation.

At this point I wonder if CMSD would be better off consolidating its football teams into maybe three or four programs schools in each part of the city. This would then allow stronger programs (including JV and freshmen teams) to be developed rather than having nine programs with vastly varying ability levels. CMSD probably could/should do the same for some of the other sports programs, but football makes the most sense right of the bat considering the nature of the sport.

Based on what's been dealt with Youngstown, one district can consolidate all their campuses down to be 'seen' as one school. But, in Cleveland's case they couldn't do that into multiple teams. It's either one team or none....

Though that doesn't seem to explain Whitney Young. The report was their football players would go to JFK down the street. But, they're a magnet school, similar to Ginn, that had their own team.

If Ginn Academy had its own team, it would solve a lot of this.

If OHSAA just allowed co-ops, then CMSD could do that as much as they wanted. Maybe form a northeast, south east, south central, and west team and might be competitive with all four in DI.
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  #48  
Old 10-09-18, 01:29 PM
hammer89 hammer89 is offline
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OHSAA statement-

COLUMBUS, Ohio – The Ohio High School Athletic Association announced sanctions Tuesday for the Cleveland Metropolitan School District (CMSD) for incorrectly assigning students to certain schools for participation in football and soccer. As a result, John Marshall High School must forfeit two football victories and three boys soccer victories and Glenville has been ruled ineligible for the football playoffs, if the school finishes in the Top 8 of its region.

In addition, Glenville is placed on probation through June 2021 and CMSD has been fined $5,000 and reprimanded for lack of administrative responsibility and institutional control in assigning students to the correct high school for athletic participation purposes. The violations are of OHSAA Bylaw 4-3-1, which addresses participation opportunities for students only at the school where they attend. While Exception 4 to that bylaw allows some participation opportunities for students who attend a non-traditional school, CMSD did not adhere to the business rules for how those students are assigned. In 2007, CMSD co-authored those business rules.

“I need to acknowledge the cooperation from Cleveland Metropolitan School District in this situation,” said Jerry Snodgrass, OHSAA Executive Director. “This draws attention to the fact that school districts with multiple high schools need to be aware of how to properly assign students for athletic participation. While we will continue to offer our assistance with understanding and interpreting our bylaws and regulations, we hope and trust these mistakes will not occur again.”

A spokesperson for CMSD said the District accepts OHSAA's findings and has investigated where and how errors occurred in the assignment of players to their appropriate teams.

“The District takes seriously any infraction of OHSAA rules and is holding accountable those who failed in their oversight responsibilities,” said Roseann Canfora, Chief Communications Officer. “It is apparent that a rule created in cooperation with OHSAA in 2007 and that was reaffirmed in August, 2018, was not followed.”

District officials met this week with players and their families to brief them on OHSAA’s findings, implemented disciplinary procedures for those who erred in player assignments and called for professional development, including a review of OHSAA rules, to be repeated for every member of the administrative staff in the Athletics Department.

“CMSD accepts full responsibility for the sanctions imposed by OHSAA, with the exception of penalties imposed on our players,” said Canfora. “For this reason, CMSD will file an appeal with OHSAA to find a way to hold the District accountable without imposing harm to our students for the decisions of adults.”

The OHSAA had previously reviewed this regulation with CMSD administrators and CMSD did properly count those students into the enrollments of the schools at which the students should have been participating. However, despite this fact, the students were all still permitted to play football at Glenville.

The difference in each school's penalties stems from the eligibility of the affected students. John Marshall was allowing students who attend a non-traditional high school in the district to play football and soccer at its school. However, the school where the students attend does offer sports, so those students' only participation opportunity was at the school where they are enrolled and attending. These students were not eligible to participate at any other CMSD school, irrespective of whether the school offered the particular sport in question.

Conversely, the students participating at Glenville attend a different non-traditional high school in the district which does not offer any sports. Therefore, they are permitted to participate in athletics at the CMSD high school located closest to the students’ residence. CMSD was not properly assigning these students to the correct high school, but since the students are otherwise eligible to participate at the properly assigned schools, no forfeitures are required due to administrative error and the students may finish the football season at Glenville before being properly assigned for subsequent seasons.
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  #49  
Old 10-09-18, 01:36 PM
tribefan23 tribefan23 is offline
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Originally Posted by hammer89 View Post
OHSAA statement-

The difference in each school's penalties stems from the eligibility of the affected students. John Marshall was allowing students who attend a non-traditional high school in the district to play football and soccer at its school. However, the school where the students attend does offer sports, so those students' only participation opportunity was at the school where they are enrolled and attending. These students were not eligible to participate at any other CMSD school, irrespective of whether the school offered the particular sport in question.

Conversely, the students participating at Glenville attend a different non-traditional high school in the district which does not offer any sports. Therefore, they are permitted to participate in athletics at the CMSD high school located closest to the students’ residence. CMSD was not properly assigning these students to the correct high school, but since the students are otherwise eligible to participate at the properly assigned schools, no forfeitures are required due to administrative error and the students may finish the football season at Glenville before being properly assigned for subsequent seasons.
So in conclusion:

John Marshall had athletes that attended another HS in Cleveland that had a football team and should have been playing for that team, therefore they had to forfeit games.

Glenville had athletes that attended another HS in Cleveland that did NOT have a football team, but they should have been playing football at the HS in the neighborhood that they live, therefore they won't forfeit games but are not allowed to be in the playoffs.

It is interesting that they say they are letting the kids finish out the year playing for Glenville, but they can't make the playoffs, yet Marshall couldn't let the players even continue to play, but are eligible for the playoffs (which they won't make, but still).

Hope everyone in this thread understands the difference in the situations now. It's a very unique situation because it only affects the few major cities in Ohio that run their schools this way.
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  #50  
Old 10-09-18, 01:41 PM
SECfb SECfb is offline
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Originally Posted by tribefan23 View Post
Copied from my previous posts:

Sounds like these kids were all attending Ginn Academy. Ginn Academy doesn't have a football program (It's basically an all boys school for at-risk kids, kinda like the LeBron James school that opened in Akron). Cardale Jones is the most "famous" player that attended Ginn Academy. Anyone that lives in any part of Cleveland can attend Ginn Academy. However, technically you are only allowed to play sports for the area that you live in. Many kids that lived in the areas of John Hay, Collinwood, Whitney Young and other areas with terrible football programs all went to Ginn Academy so that they could just play for Glenville (can't really blame them). It's kinda like if you are home schooled, you can't just pick and choose what school you want to play sports, you're supposed to play for your home district or home high school. So if a student attends Ginn Academy but lives in the neighborhood that attends Whitney Young, they're supposed to play for WY.

Glenville and Ginn Academy aren't too far apart, so a lot of the boys that attend Ginn Academy already live in the neighborhood that would go to Glenville anyways. Unfortunately, a small number of players dont, and that's what screwed them. I'm sure this has been happening for years though, not sure why it's being investigated now.

I did some more research and CMSD does have school-choice to certain extent, but most of the "good schools" fill up quickly, leaving everyone else to attend their neighborhood school. The "school choice" thing they implemented mostly applies to students who want to attend a STEM HS in cleveland or kids that "qualify for schools like Ginn Academy. Most people aren't using the school choice thing for athletics.

I believe many students/parents do have a choice of which school they can attend, but the rule is that if they attend a school like Ginn Academy that doesn't have athletics, they have to participate in athletics for the school that they would be enrolled in based on where they live. They can't go to Ginn Academy and choose to play sports at Glenville if they live in, say, the neighborhood that would typically go to John Hay. This is the main issue at hand.

There ya go.
Sorry, already read this.Who is making these set of rules?
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  #51  
Old 10-09-18, 01:44 PM
tribefan23 tribefan23 is offline
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Originally Posted by SECfb View Post
Sorry, already read this.Who is making these set of rules?
Read the article that was posted 3 posts above this. Clearly explains why Glenville is being punished.
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  #52  
Old 10-09-18, 01:53 PM
Bennies'01 Bennies'01 is offline
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Originally Posted by Sykotyk View Post
Based on what's been dealt with Youngstown, one district can consolidate all their campuses down to be 'seen' as one school. But, in Cleveland's case they couldn't do that into multiple teams. It's either one team or none....

Though that doesn't seem to explain Whitney Young. The report was their football players would go to JFK down the street. But, they're a magnet school, similar to Ginn, that had their own team.

If Ginn Academy had its own team, it would solve a lot of this.

If OHSAA just allowed co-ops, then CMSD could do that as much as they wanted. Maybe form a northeast, south east, south central, and west team and might be competitive with all four in DI.
I don't know if that's accurate. Think about the current situation. Cleveland has something like 15-20 secondary schools, but only 9 have football programs. So the kids attending the schools that don't have football teams can still play (based on attendance zones) at one of the 9 other schools that do have football. What if CMSD simply said that next year they're only going to have 3 or 4 schools play football? The kids at the other schools could still play and would be assigned to play for one of those schools. Each of the programs would be much stronger, but I have no idea how enrollment numbers would be calculated.

Your other suggestion is something I thought of years ago: What if Ginn Academy just had its own football team? I'm fairly certain they'd be placed in Division VI or VII and it would be fascinating to see how that would play out.
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  #53  
Old 10-09-18, 01:57 PM
NeoFB18 NeoFB18 is offline
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Originally Posted by Bennies'01 View Post
Good post and explanation.

At this point I wonder if CMSD would be better off consolidating its football teams into maybe three or four programs schools in each part of the city. This would then allow stronger programs (including JV and freshmen teams) to be developed rather than having nine programs with vastly varying ability levels. CMSD probably could/should do the same for some of the other sports programs, but football makes the most sense right of the bat considering the nature of the sport.
Didn't the Youngstown schools do that until just recently. If you wanted to play football, you could go to one school that didn't have football and play for the other school that did. If they can do this, its time for Cleveland schools to do this.
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Old 10-09-18, 02:04 PM
SECfb SECfb is offline
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Originally Posted by tribefan23 View Post
Read the article that was posted 3 posts above this. Clearly explains why Glenville is being punished.
Ok I did not read that one. It definitely explained more. Guess what though I feel it is dead wrong. If Ginn has the acadamy for kids to attend, and there from another district beside Glenvile, they cant play for Glenville. Stupid
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Old 10-09-18, 02:10 PM
Sykotyk Sykotyk is offline
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Originally Posted by Bennies'01 View Post
I don't know if that's accurate. Think about the current situation. Cleveland has something like 15-20 secondary schools, but only 9 have football programs. So the kids attending the schools that don't have football teams can still play (based on attendance zones) at one of the 9 other schools that do have football. What if CMSD simply said that next year they're only going to have 3 or 4 schools play football? The kids at the other schools could still play and would be assigned to play for one of those schools. Each of the programs would be much stronger, but I have no idea how enrollment numbers would be calculated.

Your other suggestion is something I thought of years ago: What if Ginn Academy just had its own football team? I'm fairly certain they'd be placed in Division VI or VII and it would be fascinating to see how that would play out.
Then something appears to have changed. Because then you'd have multiple attendance zones based on different sports. One zone for football, one for basketball, one for soccer, etc. That'd become an administrative nightmare for ADs, etc.

If they did the 3 or 4 school playing football approach, that'd be interesting. But it's my understanding that that's against the rules. The reason the kid can play at their 'home school' is because their home school has that particular sport. If zoned traditional schools stop sponsoring a sport, can CMSD just en masse send those kids to play for another school?

Ginn Academy isn't a zoned school. It's a magnet school like Whitney Young was. But WY had a team until just this year. Ginn never did.

And for the last comment, I always figured they should've. Would've been a beast of a D6 or D7 team probably. And maybe sports could've been the driver to get even more at-risk kids into the program and grow from there. Or, to spark the initiative to have more of these 'academies' elsewhere in the city to help spur kids to keep on the up and up.

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Originally Posted by NeoFB18 View Post
Didn't the Youngstown schools do that until just recently. If you wanted to play football, you could go to one school that didn't have football and play for the other school that did. If they can do this, its time for Cleveland schools to do this.
Technically, East was THE high school in the city, while Chaney was basically a STEM/magnet school under the last reorganization. It's just now the city is trying to recreate an east and west high school and basically offer the same classes at each school (it's also going to greatly benefit athletics, because East wasn't exactly getting a ton of players from Chaney, and was elevating them to a much higher division than they should).

It all comes back to OHSAA and their near absolute opposition to sports co-ops which really helps fuel transferring for athletics.
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Old 10-09-18, 02:35 PM
playboi12 playboi12 is offline
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Originally Posted by tribefan23 View Post
I did some more research and CMSD does have school-choice to certain extent, but most of the "good schools" fill up quickly, leaving everyone else to attend their neighborhood school. The "school choice" thing they implemented mostly applies to students who want to attend a STEM HS in cleveland or kids that "qualify for schools like Ginn Academy. Most people aren't using the school choice thing for athletics.

I believe many students/parents do have a choice of which school they can attend, but the rule is that if they attend a school like Ginn Academy that doesn't have athletics, they have to participate in athletics for the school that they would be enrolled in based on where they live. They can't go to Ginn Academy and choose to play sports at Glenville if they live in, say, the neighborhood that would typically go to John Hay. This is the main issue at hand.
Thank you for clearing that up, fam! Props.
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Old 10-09-18, 02:53 PM
Bennies'01 Bennies'01 is offline
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Originally Posted by Sykotyk View Post
Then something appears to have changed. Because then you'd have multiple attendance zones based on different sports. One zone for football, one for basketball, one for soccer, etc. That'd become an administrative nightmare for ADs, etc.

If they did the 3 or 4 school playing football approach, that'd be interesting. But it's my understanding that that's against the rules. The reason the kid can play at their 'home school' is because their home school has that particular sport. If zoned traditional schools stop sponsoring a sport, can CMSD just en masse send those kids to play for another school?

Ginn Academy isn't a zoned school. It's a magnet school like Whitney Young was. But WY had a team until just this year. Ginn never did.
I see what you're saying and now that I think about it you may be correct, but I think it's messy. Consider this hypothetical: If Collinwood dropped football next season, would kids attending Collinwood would still have the option to play football at another school in CMSD? Or does the OHSAA make districts distinguish between "neighborhood schools" (like Collinwood) and "magnet schools" (like Ginn Academy), and if a neighborhood school doesn't have a sport, students attending are out of luck, but if a magnet school doesn't have a sport, a student attending such a school can play for their home school if they have that sport?
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Old 10-09-18, 03:12 PM
hammer89 hammer89 is offline
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Originally Posted by Bennies'01 View Post
I see what you're saying and now that I think about it you may be correct, but I think it's messy. Consider this hypothetical: If Collinwood dropped football next season, would kids attending Collinwood would still have the option to play football at another school in CMSD? Or does the OHSAA make districts distinguish between "neighborhood schools" (like Collinwood) and "magnet schools" (like Ginn Academy), and if a neighborhood school doesn't have a sport, students attending are out of luck, but if a magnet school doesn't have a sport, a student attending such a school can play for their home school if they have that sport?
If Collinwood dropped football, those students would be able to play for anotehr CMSD school that has football.

The most embarassing part of this is that CMSD wasn't following a rule they helped create! "Roseann Canfora, Chief Communications Officer. “It is apparent that a rule created in cooperation with OHSAA in 2007 and that was reaffirmed in August, 2018, was not followed.”
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Old 10-09-18, 04:33 PM
eastisbest eastisbest is offline
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Originally Posted by tribefan23 View Post
Sounds like these kids were all attending Ginn Academy. Ginn Academy doesn't have a football program (It's basically an all boys school for at-risk kids, kinda like the LeBron James school that opened in Akron). Cardale Jones is the most "famous" player that attended Ginn Academy. Anyone that lives in any part of Cleveland can attend Ginn Academy. However, technically you are only allowed to play sports for the area that you live in. Many kids that lived in the areas of John Hay, Collinwood, Whitney Young and other areas with terrible football programs all went to Ginn Academy so that they could just play for Glenville (can't really blame them). It's kinda like if you are home schooled, you can't just pick and choose what school you want to play sports, you're supposed to play for your home district or home high school. So if a student attends Ginn Academy but lives in the neighborhood that attends Whitney Young, they're supposed to play for WY.

Glenville and Ginn Academy aren't too far apart, so a lot of the boys that attend Ginn Academy already live in the neighborhood that would go to Glenville anyways. Unfortunately, a small number of players dont, and that's what screwed them. I'm sure this has been happening for years though, not sure why it's being investigated now.

Hope this helps

It does help, mainly because I was forgetting that Ginn Academy and Glenville are different schools.
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Originally Posted by SECfb View Post
I thought Glenville was open enrollment. Does not sound like open enrollment to me. OSHAA going aftet Glenville, why are they not going after schools like Hoban, and so forth. Sounds like OSHAA, just picks and chooses what they want, and who.

I think you (and others) were having difficulty for the same reason as me. The problematic players were attending Ginn Academy, not Glenville, but they were playing for Glenville even though they didn't live in that district.
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Old 10-09-18, 07:22 PM
James x2 James x2 is offline
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Originally Posted by tribefan23 View Post
Nah, Rotsky will probably get these players to "move" to Euclid over the next year or 2. He's over there licking his chops this morning.
sounds good to me
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