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  #91  
Old 09-26-18, 08:06 AM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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I can buy not doing this for the logistical nightmare it would cause. At the same time, money has been spent in worse ways and everything seems to be fine.

I think it should start in 9th grade. It would force coaches to teach more skills and less "their way". To me, that makes for better basketball in the long run.
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  #92  
Old 09-26-18, 08:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thavoice View Post
Coaches too involved has been my theory for quite awhile now.

They seem to micromanage each and every single possession like it is the final potential game winning possession in the state championship.

Basketball is supposed to be a game about flow and the players reacting off of one another. The game isn't fun to watch when it is choppy and extremely structured. More coaches need to allow players more leeway to make more plays. Let them run up the court more and yes, TO's will likely go up but also will possessions and likely more easy buckets instead of the slow, methodical game we see way too often today.

Can we blame coach Normal Dale for this.......
I completely agree.
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  #93  
Old 09-26-18, 08:26 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
There is nothing beautiful about watching a 2 minute offensive set. There is no offensive set that exists that was meant to last 2 minutes. Offensive sets are meant to score. If you're running a 2 minute offensive set on purpose, you're stalling.
so you should have numerous posts in the football forum ranting about how teams should not be allowed to take a knee at the end of the game for the sole purpose of running the clock out.... (if the sole purpose of being fon offense is to score)

My guess is that I won't find any.
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  #94  
Old 09-26-18, 08:35 AM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
You just posted that you would rather see stall ball if it meant a closer game. That's not the same as slowing the game down.

Your attitude reeks of "this team is too good, let's change the game so we have a chance." This isn't handicapped horse-racing.

At that point, you might as well set a spread and give the underdog that many points as an advantage to start the game. Basketball the millenial way.
You don't know me. Stall ball to me is anything that involves slowing the game down to fit your team against a better opponent.

No need to get butt hurt because you're wrong.
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  #95  
Old 09-26-18, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
so you should have numerous posts in the football forum ranting about how teams should not be allowed to take a knee at the end of the game for the sole purpose of running the clock out.... (if the sole purpose of being fon offense is to score)

My guess is that I won't find any.
And there's the magical leap between a specific game-time strategic decision vs. a full-game philosophy.

Not an equal comparison. That's more in line with teams letting the shot clock run out and not shooting when they're up 10 with 30 seconds to go. There's nothing wrong with that. Use some common sense.

We both know it's not the same thing, stop reaching.
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  #96  
Old 09-26-18, 08:38 AM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
You don't know me. Stall ball to me is anything that involves slowing the game down to fit your team against a better opponent.

No need to get butt hurt because you're wrong.
I don't know you? What in the hell does that have to do with anything?

How can either of us be wrong on this? Opinions are never wrong. You may not agree, but it doesn't make it wrong. Not being mature enough to recognize that difference is the epitome of butthurt.

I can see your angle on the subject, I just don't agree with it. That's what big boys do.

Now get back to Fortnite.
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  #97  
Old 09-26-18, 08:39 AM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
Ah, the "purity of basketball" guy.

There is nothing beautiful about watching a 2 minute offensive set. There is no offensive set that exists that was meant to last 2 minutes. Offensive sets are meant to score. If you're running a 2 minute offensive set on purpose, you're stalling.
What you fail to get is that it's not about you in the stands enjoying the game. It's about the kids on the floor competing to win.
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  #98  
Old 09-26-18, 08:39 AM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
I 100% agree those GCL coaches are great coaches. It didn't used to be that way. This stalling and ultra-physical style they call basketball in the GCL has been the last 10-15 years. Not sure how it got to that point. They're good enough to win without it.

There would probably be zero college coaches that want to get rid of the shot clock. And there are some very bad college programs, from D1 to D4. D2-D4 schools, as well as community college, aren't competing for ratings. You act like all college basketball is played at Rupp Arena.

And the football analogy has plenty of merit. A team can absolutely gain an advantage during this dead ball period. If they are winning, and take as much time as they want to call a play, that runs more clock (clock runs during play after completed runs and passes that stay in-bounds). Or, if they feel they are inferior, they can shorten the game by keeping the ball as long as they want. The rule was made for a reason, and this is it. It's the exact same advantage you are lobbying for in basketball with the stalling concept.

You can call it whatever you want...it's stupid. Everyone assumes shot clock = run and gun. It couldn't be further from the truth. All types of teams can be successful using a shot clock.
Is there D4 in college?
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  #99  
Old 09-26-18, 08:44 AM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
I don't know you? What in the hell does that have to do with anything?

How can either of us be wrong on this? Opinions are never wrong. You may not agree, but it doesn't make it wrong. Not being mature enough to recognize that difference is the epitome of butthurt.

I can see your angle on the subject, I just don't agree with it. That's what big boys do.

Now get back to Fortnite.
You don't know me means you don't know what I mean when I say stall ball.

Several of us has asked for valid reasoning that isn't emotional. You went completely emotional and are showing signs of real butt hurt because you can't show valid reasoning.

Never played Fortnite. I am probably older than you.
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  #100  
Old 09-26-18, 08:45 AM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
What you fail to get is that it's not about you in the stands enjoying the game. It's about the kids on the floor competing to win.
When did I ever say it was about my enjoyment?

From the very beginning, my whole point was, to me, a shot clock is necessary to build a better basketball player, and it forces the development of more skills. How is that not about the player? How is that not a valid opinion? It's completely about the player.

You simply react, you don't listen. You don't have to agree with me, but stop saying I said things I didn't say.
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  #101  
Old 09-26-18, 08:46 AM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
You don't know me means you don't know what I mean when I say stall ball.

Several of us has asked for valid reasoning that isn't emotional. You went completely emotional and are showing signs of real butt hurt because you can't show valid reasoning.

Never played Fortnite. I am probably older than you.
So I'm butthurt because I think there should be a shot clock and you don't? If I'm going to be butthurt, it's going to be about more important things than that. You're really that ego driven to think your posts on a high school message board have impacted my day to the point where you think you've gotten some rise out of me for....wait for it...an electronic timing device?

I showed valid reasoning. Just because you don't agree with it doesn't mean it's not valid.
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  #102  
Old 09-26-18, 08:46 AM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
Providing a shot clock in high school (30-35 seconds) allows coaches enough time to implement effective sets, while also enabling players to use their skills to create when they have to. Basketball players need to be able to do both.

To me, adding a shot clock advances the skill set of the players involved, which advances the quality of the game. That benefits everyone long-term.

Too many games are dictated by coaching. Adding a shot clock doesn't automatically assume higher scoring - that's a bad assumption and usually where people start with this argument. It enables a more complete basketball player. More of those type of players enables a more watchable and enjoyable product.
Here' one spot.
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  #103  
Old 09-26-18, 08:47 AM
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I bet if you polled the players they would be for the shot clock. Now if you polled the coaches...
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  #104  
Old 09-26-18, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
I'll admit I'm biased because I watch alot of GCL games. It's probably not as bad as the GCL across the state.

But it's gotten to the point that refs allowing such physical play, and so many sets and 1-2 minute possessions, it's terrible to watch. It's like "well the GCL has a reputation of playing football on the basketball court, so we're just going to let them kill each other." Every game I watch, and I'm not exaggerating, there are 2-3 legit tackles. Yes, like football. And they are rarely called. It's not basketball most of the time.

The refs allow it because those GCL coaches are very good and respected, and they let the coaches dictate the physicality of the game and basically throw the rules out the window when it comes to hand-checking, chest bumping, grabbing, holding and general contact that should be a foul 100% of the time. That's not defense.

Being able to do that on defense, and coaches running 1-2 minute sets make it unwatchable at times. It's not surprising most games are 36-32. I absolutely believe the coaches inhibit player development by running their teams like this, and I think that kind of sucks. I also think, by doing this, they are basically telling their teams that they don't think they're good enough to compete based on talent, so they're going to ugly it up. A GCL school shouldn't have to do that. They have plenty of kids to put together good teams without that crap.

Obviously, Moeller is an exception because they get the best basketball players in the region.
Couple more
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  #105  
Old 09-26-18, 08:50 AM
D4fan D4fan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
Ah, the "purity of basketball" guy.

There is nothing beautiful about watching a 2 minute offensive set. There is no offensive set that exists that was meant to last 2 minutes. Offensive sets are meant to score. If you're running a 2 minute offensive set on purpose, you're stalling.
You do realize many coaches use passing the ball on offense to tire out a superior athletic team? It is about strategy. That is what makes it intriguing. With a shot clock the superior athletic team would have a larger advantage than what they currently have without a clock. If you want to benefit inner city basketball then I get your stance, I want to benefit rural and small town kids who can't sprint or jump (As well).
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  #106  
Old 09-26-18, 08:50 AM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
Ah, the "purity of basketball" guy.

There is nothing beautiful about watching a 2 minute offensive set. There is no offensive set that exists that was meant to last 2 minutes. Offensive sets are meant to score. If you're running a 2 minute offensive set on purpose, you're stalling.
Another
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  #107  
Old 09-26-18, 08:53 AM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
When did I ever say it was about my enjoyment?

From the very beginning, my whole point was, to me, a shot clock is necessary to build a better basketball player, and it forces the development of more skills. How is that not about the player? How is that not a valid opinion? It's completely about the player.

You simply react, you don't listen. You don't have to agree with me, but stop saying I said things I didn't say.
But you did say them....see the posts I pointed out.
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  #108  
Old 09-26-18, 08:55 AM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Originally Posted by Auggie View Post
I bet if you polled the players they would be for the shot clock. Now if you polled the coaches...
High school basketball, especially in Ohio, is a coach's league. It's dictated and run by their egos and insecurities.

The kids would 100% want a shot clock. But that doesn't matter because the coaches say "we do things our way" here.
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  #109  
Old 09-26-18, 08:58 AM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
But you did say them....see the posts I pointed out.
Nothing to do with me sitting in the stands and expecting enjoyment. Holding the ball for an entire quarter, or even purposely running 2-3 minute sets to waste time isn't basketball. Call it something else then.

Kids signed up to play basketball, not stand around ball or run around in circles ball or football (which it resembles in some leagues).
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  #110  
Old 09-26-18, 09:03 AM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
Nothing to do with me sitting in the stands and expecting enjoyment. Holding the ball for an entire quarter, or even purposely running 2-3 minute sets to waste time isn't basketball. Call it something else then.

Kids signed up to play basketball, not stand around ball or run around in circles ball or football (which it resembles in some leagues).
Then maybe you shouldn't have said those things then if you didn't really mean them.

They ARE playing basketball...just not what YOU want to see. I think we understand that point by now.
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  #111  
Old 09-26-18, 09:13 AM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
Then maybe you shouldn't have said those things then if you didn't really mean them.

They ARE playing basketball...just not what YOU want to see. I think we understand that point by now.
I can't wait to go watch that basketball game where the team just stands there and does nothing basketball related. That's not basketball...it's standing.

You like to watch standing...I like to watch basketball.

Can't wait to go to that volleyball game where the team never serves or hits the ball back. They just wait for the other team to make a mistake. It's strategy. It's my only hope for winning.

Can't wait to watch that tennis match where the player never returns the ball. His/Her strategy is to just stand there and wait for the other player to mess up.

Can't compete...let's cheat the sport.

I mean, if that's your thing, have at it. But that's not sports. I would never want you on my team. This world is screwed.
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  #112  
Old 09-26-18, 09:35 AM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
I can't wait to go watch that basketball game where the team just stands there and does nothing basketball related. That's not basketball...it's standing.

You like to watch standing...I like to watch basketball.

Can't wait to go to that volleyball game where the team never serves or hits the ball back. They just wait for the other team to make a mistake. It's strategy. It's my only hope for winning.

Can't wait to watch that tennis match where the player never returns the ball. His/Her strategy is to just stand there and wait for the other player to mess up.

Can't compete...let's cheat the sport.

I mean, if that's your thing, have at it. But that's not sports. I would never want you on my team. This world is screwed.
Drama queen now...the world is screwed? LOL. Ok. Because there is no shot clock in high school basketball in Ohio?

Nobody is cheating the sport. That's ridiculous. Slowing the game down, limiting possessions, etc is not cheating. And again, you're bent out of shape over a very small percentage of games that are played that way. The overwhelming majority of the games are played the way you want but you get upset over a handful of games each year? LOL. OK.

And love the "I wouldn't want you on my team" comment. That's great. Again, you don't know me but if you did you would learn that I am one of the most competitive people you would meet. But because I think its a valid strategy to slow the game down when one team is seriously outmatched with another you characterize me as some sort of sissy I guess. But I think that strategy is valid because it gives that team the best chance they have to win. Because when you play a competitive game, the ultimate goal is to WIN. If it doesn't satisfy Trey2K in the stands, I don't care as long as I won the game.
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  #113  
Old 09-26-18, 09:43 AM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
Drama queen now...the world is screwed? LOL. Ok. Because there is no shot clock in high school basketball in Ohio?

Nobody is cheating the sport. That's ridiculous. Slowing the game down, limiting possessions, etc is not cheating. And again, you're bent out of shape over a very small percentage of games that are played that way. The overwhelming majority of the games are played the way you want but you get upset over a handful of games each year? LOL. OK.

And love the "I wouldn't want you on my team" comment. That's great. Again, you don't know me but if you did you would learn that I am one of the most competitive people you would meet. But because I think its a valid strategy to slow the game down when one team is seriously outmatched with another you characterize me as some sort of sissy I guess. But I think that strategy is valid because it gives that team the best chance they have to win. Because when you play a competitive game, the ultimate goal is to WIN. If it doesn't satisfy Trey2K in the stands, I don't care as long as I won the game.
Then why is there so much noise about getting a shot clock?

All of those people in favor are crazy? They're just clueless dolts sitting in the stands wanting to be entertained like they're at the circus?

I've been around the game my entire life. Those that I have the most respect for and know the most about the game all are adament that high school needs a shot clock because of how it would improve the game overall.

To be honest, those against are the bureaucratic, status quo, old-school egomaniacs that simply want things done their way. It's not about improving the game to them, it's about their control.
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  #114  
Old 09-26-18, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
Then why is there so much noise about getting a shot clock?

All of those people in favor are crazy? They're just clueless dolts sitting in the stands wanting to be entertained like they're at the circus?
Other than on Yappi about once a year, I don't hear much about it. I don't hear it at basketball games I attend. The people I talk with don't bring it up. Even when sitting at a tournament game and watching a team slow things down....I don't hear it.

I didn't say anyone was crazy or clueless dolts. But the biggest complaint on here about why they want the shot clock is that they don't find the games watchable. There are bigger problems with high school sports in Ohio in my opinion.
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  #115  
Old 09-26-18, 09:51 AM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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I hear it constantly, but like I said, I watch alot of GCL, which I'm sure skews it.
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  #116  
Old 09-26-18, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
I hear it constantly, but like I said, I watch alot of GCL, which I'm sure skews it.
Maybe. All good. Have a great day.
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  #117  
Old 09-26-18, 09:57 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
And there's the magical leap between a specific game-time strategic decision vs. a full-game philosophy.

Not an equal comparison. That's more in line with teams letting the shot clock run out and not shooting when they're up 10 with 30 seconds to go. There's nothing wrong with that. Use some common sense.

We both know it's not the same thing, stop reaching.
No different than a team holding the ball to shorten a period.

You cannot point out other than a few instances in Ohio where teams play this style of basketball that you think is stupid. (stupid to the point it has helped three coaches that were or still coaching in the league you refer to somehow amass 1400 wins)

The bottom line is you are have an emotional dislike for games that aren't played to your liking. (you have a track record of this on your school's forum... you know better than your football, baseball, and basketball coaches who are ball all accounts and statistics, among the best in the state)

But know this, the rule isn't going to change because you don't like it. They don't care if you like it. it's not college, it's not the pros, it's not international.....

It's high school.

It's not stupid.

You can have the last word, I'm done chasing your tail on this (stupid, college, pros, international, stupid, college, pros, international....) With that last word , please give some facts for a change or at least post your resume of how many games you have coached at any level.
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  #118  
Old 09-26-18, 10:03 AM
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Alot of people with strong basketball acumen don't like it.

You're also assuming adding a shot clock automatically creates a basketball environment I "like", because you're stuck on the idea that it increases pace. A faster game isn't automatically a better one. I would never make that assertion. There can be beauty in both fast and methodically paced games. As mentioned 400 times, that's not the point of my argument, even though you keep saying it is.

But purposely NOT PLAYING THE GAME as a strategy is blatantly nutless.
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  #119  
Old 09-26-18, 10:34 AM
Yappi Yappi is offline
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One of my all-time favorite games that I watched was almost 20 years ago and a shot clock would have ruined it.

Two great teams matched up. Both were athletic. One was an inside/fastbreak scoring team. The other was an outside shooting team. I'm guessing both teams averaged 75-80 points a game that season.

The fastbreak team had the advantage early. They guarded the #1 shooter very tightly and he couldn't get a shot off. The coach of the shooting team then changed up the style. His top shooter started running off of lots of picks, not to get open but to wear down the defender. This shooter never stopped running. His effort was incredible. The fastbreak team countered with another great defender. So this one great shooter had two defenders subbing in and out covering him the whole game. By the 4th quarter, both of these defenders were dead tired and the shooter started getting alot of open looks.

The final score of the game was the shooting team winning 50-45. It was a district championship and the most exciting game I have ever seen. Every possession mattered. Every mistake hurt. The game never slowed down but wasn't artificially sped up either.
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  #120  
Old 09-26-18, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Yappi View Post
One of my all-time favorite games that I watched was almost 20 years ago and a shot clock would have ruined it.

Two great teams matched up. Both were athletic. One was an inside/fastbreak scoring team. The other was an outside shooting team. I'm guessing both teams averaged 75-80 points a game that season.

The fastbreak team had the advantage early. They guarded the #1 shooter very tightly and he couldn't get a shot off. The coach of the shooting team then changed up the style. His top shooter started running off of lots of picks, not to get open but to wear down the defender. This shooter never stopped running. His effort was incredible. The fastbreak team countered with another great defender. So this one great shooter had two defenders subbing in and out covering him the whole game. By the 4th quarter, both of these defenders were dead tired and the shooter started getting alot of open looks.

The final score of the game was the shooting team winning 50-45. It was a district championship and the most exciting game I have ever seen. Every possession mattered. Every mistake hurt. The game never slowed down but wasn't artificially sped up either.
Based on your description, I can't see how a shot clock would have screwed this game up.

A shot clock isn't a substitute for defensive effort. I would argue that those defenders would have been even more tired because there would have been more possessions.
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