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  #61  
Old 09-25-18, 07:26 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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BASES is right on the money with numerous posts.

There's NO DOUBT the high school coaches are heads and shoulders better basketball minds than the AAU coaches. But the game at the high school level is completely controlled by them. Them opening up their style of play in addition to their basketball intellect would only make the high school game that much better.

The shot clock does indeed force action. It teaches kids the ability to score when necessary, and to adapt when sets break down (which happens so very often when teams are scouted so well).

The AAU game isn't awful because of the shot clock. C'mon man.
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  #62  
Old 09-25-18, 07:37 PM
SMARTY22 SMARTY22 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
BASES is right on the money with numerous posts.

There's NO DOUBT the high school coaches are heads and shoulders better basketball minds than the AAU coaches. But the game at the high school level is completely controlled by them. Them opening up their style of play in addition to their basketball intellect would only make the high school game that much better.

The shot clock does indeed force action. It teaches kids the ability to score when necessary, and to adapt when sets break down (which happens so very often when teams are scouted so well).

The AAU game isn't awful because of the shot clock. C'mon man.
How is the High School game “dictated” and “controlled” by Coaches? You sure it’s not controlled by the Players who can play Defense and the many who really can’t?
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  #63  
Old 09-25-18, 07:43 PM
winbypin winbypin is online now
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So let me see if I follow all these reasons for a shot clock:

* Prepares the players for the next level even though 97% of them won't play beyond high school
* A 35 second shot clock will increase action even though the average possession is 30 seconds.
* The game in the 80's (we think anyway) didn't have any teams that tried to slow the game down.
* Stall ball is boring to watch even though it happens in a very small amount of games in the state.
* And speaking of THE STATE, they are going to pay for the shot clocks, installation, training, and official to run the shot clocks.
* And finally, it's boring for some people to watch some of these games even though the high school game isn't about entertaining the fans.

Did I miss any of these "great" reasons to add the shot clock?
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  #64  
Old 09-25-18, 07:50 PM
BASESWIMPARENT BASESWIMPARENT is offline
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The best reason is that a shot clock brings the high school game back to the way the game is being played at every level above high school period. We don't play baseball any differently or football or soccer. It is an integral part of the game. I disagree about the possession thing What I have observed in tourney basketball just doesn't match that statement.
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  #65  
Old 09-25-18, 07:57 PM
winbypin winbypin is online now
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Tourney basketball is do or die. If your only chance against a much better team is to slow it down, that is what you do.
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  #66  
Old 09-25-18, 08:21 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BASESWIMPARENT View Post
We don't play baseball any differently or football or soccer.
The rule differences between NHFS Rules and NCAA Rules in baseball and football are very significant and certainly affects how the game is played.
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  #67  
Old 09-25-18, 08:23 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Originally Posted by SMARTY22 View Post
How is the High School game “dictated” and “controlled” by Coaches? You sure it’s not controlled by the Players who can play Defense and the many who really can’t?
I'll admit I'm biased because I watch alot of GCL games. It's probably not as bad as the GCL across the state.

But it's gotten to the point that refs allowing such physical play, and so many sets and 1-2 minute possessions, it's terrible to watch. It's like "well the GCL has a reputation of playing football on the basketball court, so we're just going to let them kill each other." Every game I watch, and I'm not exaggerating, there are 2-3 legit tackles. Yes, like football. And they are rarely called. It's not basketball most of the time.

The refs allow it because those GCL coaches are very good and respected, and they let the coaches dictate the physicality of the game and basically throw the rules out the window when it comes to hand-checking, chest bumping, grabbing, holding and general contact that should be a foul 100% of the time. That's not defense.

Being able to do that on defense, and coaches running 1-2 minute sets make it unwatchable at times. It's not surprising most games are 36-32. I absolutely believe the coaches inhibit player development by running their teams like this, and I think that kind of sucks. I also think, by doing this, they are basically telling their teams that they don't think they're good enough to compete based on talent, so they're going to ugly it up. A GCL school shouldn't have to do that. They have plenty of kids to put together good teams without that crap.

Obviously, Moeller is an exception because they get the best basketball players in the region.
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  #68  
Old 09-25-18, 08:23 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by BASESWIMPARENT View Post
The best reason is that a shot clock brings the high school game back to the way the game is being played at every level above high school period.
And as noted..... 95%+ will never play at that level.

For those who want the change, give me facts how it will help, not an emotional reason without fact to support the emotion.
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  #69  
Old 09-25-18, 08:25 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trey2k View Post

The AAU game isn't awful because of the shot clock. C'mon man.
AAU is awful for lots of reasons.

Corruption
Entitlement
$$$$$
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  #70  
Old 09-25-18, 08:44 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
And as noted..... 95%+ will never play at that level.

For those who want the change, give me facts how it will help, not an emotional reason without fact to support the emotion.
Once again, the people that truly understand the sport do not equate the addition of a shot clock with simply increasing scoring. That's a short-sighted view of the issue.

It creates a more fluid game and allows players to both learn effective offensive sets as well as develop play-making and situational skills. It's better for the player's development and gives them more freedom to react and improvise, which are necessary when sets break down.

How can someone give you facts for that? The facts are in the way the college game is played. It's all of the things I just mentioned. Have you ever heard ANYONE say that the shot clock needs to be removed from the college game? It has nothing to do with getting kids ready for college.

It's just a better way to play the game. Imagine not having a play clock in football and how dumb that would get with the amount of time teams would take to run the next play. It's just a better way to play the game. Period.

You call it strategy, I call it stupid. Completes defeats the purpose of competing. That's not emotion, it's just common sense.

Last edited by trey2k; 09-25-18 at 08:56 PM.
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  #71  
Old 09-25-18, 08:58 PM
winbypin winbypin is online now
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The college game consists of the top 3% of basketball players. The other 97% want to play what gives them the best chance to win games.
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  #72  
Old 09-25-18, 09:04 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
The college game consists of the top 3% of basketball players. The other 97% want to play what gives them the best chance to win games.
So they're best chance to win the game is by not playing it?

How stupid is that? In no sport should a strategy to win be playing the game less. No self-respecting, competitive athlete wants to play the game that way. At any level.

Coaches may want to save their jobs, but the result is terrible basketball. It's not about them.
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  #73  
Old 09-25-18, 09:25 PM
winbypin winbypin is online now
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
So they're best chance to win the game is by not playing it?

How stupid is that? In no sport should a strategy to win be playing the game less. No self-respecting, competitive athlete wants to play the game that way. At any level.

Coaches may want to save their jobs, but the result is terrible basketball. It's not about them.
Who said don't play? The strategy isn't to play the game less the strategy is to take the other team out of their usual style. That strategy is used in a lot of sports at many levels.

See, you can't talk about this without getting emotional.
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  #74  
Old 09-25-18, 09:30 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
We should keep the rules that give kids the best chance to compete.

I would much rather see an overmatched team still in the game late because they played stall ball than a game that is over in the first quarter.
You said it right here.

This is literally a mind-boggling approach to competitive sports. There's nothing you can say to change my mind on this one. Stick with the C team.
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  #75  
Old 09-25-18, 09:40 PM
winbypin winbypin is online now
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
You said it right here.

This is literally a mind-boggling approach to competitive sports. There's nothing you can say to change my mind on this one. Stick with the C team.
Playing the strategy that gives you the best chance to win is mind boggling? That's weird and goes against why you play the game to begin with. If you get into a competition you do it to win. Period. Why would play a strategy that you know you have zero chance to win with?
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  #76  
Old 09-25-18, 09:41 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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You're not playing a strategy...you're not playing at all. How stupid. Utterly, completely stupid.

Let's all be the Mariemont coach who held the ball for the entire 3rd quarter against Deer Park when he was LOSING BY 13 POINTS. That is the epitome of moron. I don't know who's dumber...the coach or the AD for letting him keep his job. That's just a whole new level of stupid.
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  #77  
Old 09-25-18, 09:57 PM
winbypin winbypin is online now
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
You're not playing a strategy...you're not playing at all. How stupid. Utterly, completely stupid.

Let's all be the Mariemont coach who held the ball for the entire 3rd quarter against Deer Park when he was LOSING BY 13 POINTS. That is the epitome of moron. I don't know who's dumber...the coach or the AD for letting him keep his job. That's just a whole new level of stupid.
I don't know about the mariemont game so I can't speak to that but yes, if you're playing a team that runs and you can't....why would you want to play that type of game? THAT's stupid. Why would you play right into your opponents strength? To purposely lose?

If you're playing a game, you play to win. Even if that means playing a style that trey2k doesn't find entertaining. And if it works and they find themselves playing in the next round against someone they match up better against, maybe trey3k can come back to see a style he likes better.

Or trey3k can watch less high school games.
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  #78  
Old 09-25-18, 10:00 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Playing a slower game vs. a more athletic team is not nearly the same as holding the ball for the entire quarter.

One is a strategy, the other is an abomination.
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  #79  
Old 09-25-18, 10:06 PM
winbypin winbypin is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
Playing a slower game vs. a more athletic team is not nearly the same as holding the ball for the entire quarter.

One is a strategy, the other is an abomination.
See my previous post about watching games you find more entertaining.

But for the record I was thinking about slowing the game down and not necessarily holding the ball for most of a quarter....but that still applies if that gives one team their best chance over another team. Also worth noting that the better team almost always wins anyway.
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  #80  
Old 09-25-18, 10:33 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
Once again, the people that truly understand the sport do not equate the addition of a shot clock with simply increasing scoring. That's a short-sighted view of the issue.

It creates a more fluid game and allows players to both learn effective offensive sets as well as develop play-making and situational skills. It's better for the player's development and gives them more freedom to react and improvise, which are necessary when sets break down.
Again, your argument comes down to strategy and style. You don't like it, so it's wrong.

You mentioned GCL games prior. The most notable coaches that you criticize in the GCL over the years have amassed wins as follows, Fleming (retired) 452, Schoenfeld 398, Kremer 560, all playing the GCL style that people abhor. Looks to me that they are pretty successful using that style that "nobody" likes.

Collectively, those who criticize the success have how many varsity wins as a coach? They've game planned for how many games? They've fielded how many calls about playing time from irate parents? They've spent how many hours honing their craft (coaching) ?????

Quote:
Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
How can someone give you facts for that? The facts are in the way the college game is played. It's all of the things I just mentioned. Have you ever heard ANYONE say that the shot clock needs to be removed from the college game? It has nothing to do with getting kids ready for college.
The college games need butts in the seats to survive. Without that and the TV ratings the money dries up. Not remotely the fact in HS athletics

Quote:
Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
It's just a better way to play the game. Imagine not having a play clock in football and how dumb that would get with the amount of time teams would take to run the next play. It's just a better way to play the game. Period.
Your football analogy has no merit. You describe a period of time in which the ball is dead. No team can gain or lose an advantage by rule during a dead ball.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
You call it strategy, I call it stupid. Completes defeats the purpose of competing. That's not emotion, it's just common sense.
Calling it stupid is an emotional reaction.
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  #81  
Old 09-26-18, 12:03 AM
USA70PP USA70PP is offline
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Not sure if this is the thread to post this, but I'm watching a HS football game from Colorado and their "running clock" line is 40 points. Would that be better for Ohio?
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  #82  
Old 09-26-18, 06:40 AM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Originally Posted by winbypin View Post

But for the record I was thinking about slowing the game down and not necessarily holding the ball for most of a quarter....but that still applies if that gives one team their best chance over another team. Also worth noting that the better team almost always wins anyway.
You just posted that you would rather see stall ball if it meant a closer game. That's not the same as slowing the game down.

Your attitude reeks of "this team is too good, let's change the game so we have a chance." This isn't handicapped horse-racing.

At that point, you might as well set a spread and give the underdog that many points as an advantage to start the game. Basketball the millenial way.
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  #83  
Old 09-26-18, 06:47 AM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
Again, your argument comes down to strategy and style. You don't like it, so it's wrong.

You mentioned GCL games prior. The most notable coaches that you criticize in the GCL over the years have amassed wins as follows, Fleming (retired) 452, Schoenfeld 398, Kremer 560, all playing the GCL style that people abhor. Looks to me that they are pretty successful using that style that "nobody" likes.

Collectively, those who criticize the success have how many varsity wins as a coach? They've game planned for how many games? They've fielded how many calls about playing time from irate parents? They've spent how many hours honing their craft (coaching) ?????



The college games need butts in the seats to survive. Without that and the TV ratings the money dries up. Not remotely the fact in HS athletics



Your football analogy has no merit. You describe a period of time in which the ball is dead. No team can gain or lose an advantage by rule during a dead ball.



Calling it stupid is an emotional reaction.
I 100% agree those GCL coaches are great coaches. It didn't used to be that way. This stalling and ultra-physical style they call basketball in the GCL has been the last 10-15 years. Not sure how it got to that point. They're good enough to win without it.

There would probably be zero college coaches that want to get rid of the shot clock. And there are some very bad college programs, from D1 to D4. D2-D4 schools, as well as community college, aren't competing for ratings. You act like all college basketball is played at Rupp Arena.

And the football analogy has plenty of merit. A team can absolutely gain an advantage during this dead ball period. If they are winning, and take as much time as they want to call a play, that runs more clock (clock runs during play after completed runs and passes that stay in-bounds). Or, if they feel they are inferior, they can shorten the game by keeping the ball as long as they want. The rule was made for a reason, and this is it. It's the exact same advantage you are lobbying for in basketball with the stalling concept.

You can call it whatever you want...it's stupid. Everyone assumes shot clock = run and gun. It couldn't be further from the truth. All types of teams can be successful using a shot clock.
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  #84  
Old 09-26-18, 07:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yappimember67 View Post
Not sure how that's entertaining. I watched a game this past season where a team literally held the ball an entire quarter. A single shot was not taken in the quarter. This isn't entertaining for anyone, and probably even worse for the players. I don't think players on either side want to be playing keep away.

When a team does that it is up to the defense to force the issue. If you are the superior team you can't allow them to hold the ball to shorten the game.
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  #85  
Old 09-26-18, 07:33 AM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Originally Posted by gocards View Post
When a team does that it is up to the defense to force the issue. If you are the superior team you can't allow them to hold the ball to shorten the game.
Unless you're the coach from Mariemont, and you do this for the entire 3rd quarter, when you're LOSING BY 13 POINTS. Feel free and run the clock out moron and do all you can to lose the game while not letting your kids compete. What a joke.

It's not about the coach. There's only one winner. You're going to lose alot in life. There's no shame in losing to better teams. This crap is pathetic.
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  #86  
Old 09-26-18, 07:33 AM
D4fan D4fan is offline
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
I 100% agree those GCL coaches are great coaches. It didn't used to be that way. This stalling and ultra-physical style they call basketball in the GCL has been the last 10-15 years. Not sure how it got to that point. They're good enough to win without it.

There would probably be zero college coaches that want to get rid of the shot clock. And there are some very bad college programs, from D1 to D4. D2-D4 schools, as well as community college, aren't competing for ratings. You act like all college basketball is played at Rupp Arena.

And the football analogy has plenty of merit. A team can absolutely gain an advantage during this dead ball period. If they are winning, and take as much time as they want to call a play, that runs more clock (clock runs during play after completed runs and passes that stay in-bounds). Or, if they feel they are inferior, they can shorten the game by keeping the ball as long as they want. The rule was made for a reason, and this is it. It's the exact same advantage you are lobbying for in basketball with the stalling concept.

You can call it whatever you want...it's stupid. Everyone assumes shot clock = run and gun. It couldn't be further from the truth. All types of teams can be successful using a shot clock.

First, if the clock is running in basketball, the ball is in play, therefore strategy is at work.

Second, the athletes for all college and professional teams are formed by design, they are recruited for their specific skills. High school teams do not have that option, Not having a shot clock gives them more options to use their available talent. The physicality of the game has slowly changed over the years. In small school ball MAC conference ball is very similar to GCL in terms of physicality.

Third, a shot clock can create lazy defense, knowing you will get the ball back in 35 seconds. Defense is my favorite aspect of a game. Knowlegable fans watch what is happening away from the ball. I understand the casual fan is bored when they do not see the ball drop through the rim every few seconds. But for those of us who seldom check the score and simply watch possession by possession, a two minute offensive set featuring multiple passes and screens is a thing of beauty.
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  #87  
Old 09-26-18, 07:38 AM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Originally Posted by gocards View Post
If you are the superior team you can't allow them to hold the ball to shorten the game.
And this is what usually happens, and the inferior team ends up losing by 30. So why even do it to begin with? A shot clock would eliminate this stupidity.
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  #88  
Old 09-26-18, 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by D4fan View Post
First, if the clock is running in basketball, the ball is in play, therefore strategy is at work.

Second, the athletes for all college and professional teams are formed by design, they are recruited for their specific skills. High school teams do not have that option, Not having a shot clock gives them more options to use their available talent. The physicality of the game has slowly changed over the years. In small school ball MAC conference ball is very similar to GCL in terms of physicality.

Third, a shot clock can create lazy defense, knowing you will get the ball back in 35 seconds. Defense is my favorite aspect of a game. Knowlegable fans watch what is happening away from the ball. I understand the casual fan is bored when they do not see the ball drop through the rim every few seconds. But for those of us who seldom check the score and simply watch possession by possession, a two minute offensive set featuring multiple passes and screens is a thing of beauty.
Ah, the "purity of basketball" guy.

There is nothing beautiful about watching a 2 minute offensive set. There is no offensive set that exists that was meant to last 2 minutes. Offensive sets are meant to score. If you're running a 2 minute offensive set on purpose, you're stalling.
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  #89  
Old 09-26-18, 07:51 AM
zebrastripes zebrastripes is offline
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Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
And who is going to pay for the roughly $3,200,000 (800 x $4,000 if done properly) installation of said clocks?

That's installation costs only....

Then there's operation costs....
And the scary thing is you only accounted for the high schools. How about all the middle schools? The fact that we have a poster on here who actually believes the OHSAA and/or state of Ohio should fund this unnecessary endeavor makes milk come through my nose.
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  #90  
Old 09-26-18, 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted by BASESWIMPARENT View Post
I have watched several very slow games with supposedly top teams playing in those games. It is very hard for me to sit through. I don't remember the games being that slow when I was in school or even 15 years ago. Coaches have gotten too involved. Let the kids play. Too answer above, 36 to 34 GCL games are ridiculous and I am pretty sure that they were not like that in the 80's even without the shot clock. The shot clock may not increase the scores but it will increase the action
Coaches too involved has been my theory for quite awhile now.

They seem to micromanage each and every single possession like it is the final potential game winning possession in the state championship.

Basketball is supposed to be a game about flow and the players reacting off of one another. The game isn't fun to watch when it is choppy and extremely structured. More coaches need to allow players more leeway to make more plays. Let them run up the court more and yes, TO's will likely go up but also will possessions and likely more easy buckets instead of the slow, methodical game we see way too often today.

Can we blame coach Normal Dale for this.......
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