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  #31  
Old 09-20-18, 10:56 AM
hvs1717 hvs1717 is offline
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Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
The operator will have to be a licensed official. One who understands what constitutes possession, definition of a try , etc....... much more involved her than clock off on a whistle and clock on when the official chops it in.
Why would you need a licensed official? All they have to do is follow the referees instructions. The refs tell you when to start the clock, when to stop the clock and everything in between. You don't have to know much about basketball at all to run a shot clock.
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  #32  
Old 09-20-18, 11:13 AM
winbypin winbypin is online now
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Originally Posted by hvs1717 View Post
Why would you need a licensed official? All they have to do is follow the referees instructions. The refs tell you when to start the clock, when to stop the clock and everything in between. You don't have to know much about basketball at all to run a shot clock.
What signal does the ref give for a change in possession? Or a shot attempt?
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  #33  
Old 09-20-18, 02:28 PM
zebrastripes zebrastripes is offline
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Originally Posted by hvs1717 View Post
Why would you need a licensed official? All they have to do is follow the referees instructions. The refs tell you when to start the clock, when to stop the clock and everything in between. You don't have to know much about basketball at all to run a shot clock.
I officiate college basketball and can tell you that your "everything in between" comment is just wrong.

At the levels I work (small colleges), we have plenty of issues with table crews not even knowing how to set the shot clock, not to mention all the issues that happen when the ball is live. All those problems magnify once you bring the shot clock to high school.

"They'll get better with time." Wrong. The bad operators in college games are still bad, and how long has college basketball had the shot clock?

I don't necessarily agree that the operator needs to be an OHSAA-certified official, but the shot clock is the most difficult table job to master, and quite frankly the headache of high school table crews running it just isn't worth whatever perceived benefit.
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  #34  
Old 09-20-18, 05:28 PM
BASESWIMPARENT BASESWIMPARENT is offline
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Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
So what you're saying is a high school game didn't resemble a NCAA or NBA game?

Shocking!
Ok, I know that I am old but when I went to games at Mt. Healthy (during their golden years) and at X with the Wolf brothers, I just don't remember the style being so slow and plodding. So I ask: "How does the game get better at the high school level?"

Last edited by BASESWIMPARENT; 09-20-18 at 05:46 PM.
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  #35  
Old 09-20-18, 05:54 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Having a licensed official will serve two purposes....

1) Negates the need for training ( by who/whom?....never could figure that out ) the average lay person.

2) Serves to provide additional training and potential mentoring of younger officials.

As noted prior, there's more to operating a shot clock in basketball than there is as a timer. Timer reacts to a whistle (stop) and a visible chopping in of the ball (start) by the covering official.

A shot clock operator not only reacts to both of those, they must know when a ball hits the rim.....they must knows what constitutes player possession and team control..... it requires constant watching of the ball and accurate stopping or resetting of the shot clock. They can't look away or off the ball for even a second.....

Having that up and coming official on the clock will help him learn and advance.....

Now the pesky item to address...... (also addressed prior) $$$$$

Last edited by AllSports12; 09-20-18 at 06:15 PM.
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  #36  
Old 09-20-18, 08:30 PM
winbypin winbypin is online now
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Originally Posted by BASESWIMPARENT View Post
Ok, I know that I am old but when I went to games at Mt. Healthy (during their golden years) and at X with the Wolf brothers, I just don't remember the style being so slow and plodding. So I ask: "How does the game get better at the high school level?"
You're assuming it needs to get better. Overall, I think it's just fine.
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  #37  
Old 09-24-18, 10:29 PM
BASESWIMPARENT BASESWIMPARENT is offline
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Ok, here is why I think High School basketball needs a shot clock. Without a shot clock, coaches develop a style of playing where the players pass it around the perimeter "looking for an entry pass" playing for the sure shot and defensively they teach the players to bump, grab and hold in the paint. The game plods along. It rewards teams with less talented players to "hold" the ball instead of engaging in offensive play. Besides being really boring to watch, it in now way reflects the modern or even international game standards. So yes high school basketball needs to move into the 21st century.
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  #38  
Old 09-25-18, 08:41 AM
winbypin winbypin is online now
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Originally Posted by BASESWIMPARENT View Post
Ok, here is why I think High School basketball needs a shot clock. Without a shot clock, coaches develop a style of playing where the players pass it around the perimeter "looking for an entry pass" playing for the sure shot and defensively they teach the players to bump, grab and hold in the paint. The game plods along. It rewards teams with less talented players to "hold" the ball instead of engaging in offensive play. Besides being really boring to watch, it in now way reflects the modern or even international game standards. So yes high school basketball needs to move into the 21st century.
Boring? Unlike NCAA or NBA, the high school game really isn't meant to entertain you beyond cheering for your school, your kids, friends, etc.

International game standards? Are they playing international high schools or something? Something like 95% (or higher) of these kids will never play basketball beyond the high school level. What they do overseas, or in the NCAA or NBA, shouldn't matter. Those very few kids that will get the chance to play beyond high school will be just fine at the next level.
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  #39  
Old 09-25-18, 09:10 AM
D4fan D4fan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BASESWIMPARENT View Post
Ok, here is why I think High School basketball needs a shot clock. Without a shot clock, coaches develop a style of playing where the players pass it around the perimeter "looking for an entry pass" playing for the sure shot and defensively they teach the players to bump, grab and hold in the paint. The game plods along. It rewards teams with less talented players to "hold" the ball instead of engaging in offensive play. Besides being really boring to watch, it in now way reflects the modern or even international game standards. So yes high school basketball needs to move into the 21st century.
I enjoy watching the exact type of game you are describing.

NBA the talent is roughly equal one team vs another, same really for NCAA.

High school is different, one team may have 5 great ballhandlers while the opponent may only have decent big men and little guard play. Why should the team with the big kids get rewarded with a shot clock forcing the guard heavy team to take outside shots quickly rather than work for a backdoor cut that takes many passes to set up?


I enjoy watching a GCL game that ends at 36-34 way more than watching two inner city athletic teams play no defense and run up and down the floor in limited control.

There is something to be said for a coach getting his team to be disciplined enough to work through a game plan that requires a set offense. One of the most boring things for me is an AAU game where a talented team never runs a set offense and just sprints the floor using transition as their offense. I do appreciate watching such a team if they are using it vs a disciplined defensive team. I recall a regional final game 20 years ago where one team always kept two guards back to prevent the other teams transition game. They essentially ran a three man offense and that took time off the clock. They also rested when they had the ball, again something they would lose with a shot clock.

The better team may lose more often without a shot clock, but isn't that the spirit of playing with the talent you have? With a shot clock, schools will be more likely to recruit that tall, athletic guard who can create off the dribble. The shot clock would require certain talent to do well. No shot clock allows for much more flexibility to utilize the kids you have.
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  #40  
Old 09-25-18, 10:29 AM
Bballer05 Bballer05 is offline
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Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
A shot is attempted in the average HS game every 22 seconds..... knowing that fact, someone please give me the logic of a 30 second clock.......


People want to change the rules because of a fraction of the total games played aren't the at pace they want to see.....

HS sports do not exist with the primary goal of entertaining the fans. You have the NCAA and NBA for entertainment.
it's not a "fraction" of the games. it's more than that. there's really no reason that a shot clock can't be instituted for HS. people want to talk about the $$$ to install and getting people to run it. here's how that's fixed:

if the state passes the rule of say, a 35 or 40 second shot clock (i prefer 35), then THE STATE needs to pay for the install/equipment into ALL high schools AND need to train/hire people to WORK the sites to run the clock. basically just like another referee.

if the state wants to pass the rule, then find the $$$ to make it happen for all schools. the shot clock should be run by an "official", not Joe Schmoe Dad of one of the JV kids in the program.
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  #41  
Old 09-25-18, 11:13 AM
winbypin winbypin is online now
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Originally Posted by Bballer05 View Post
it's not a "fraction" of the games. it's more than that. there's really no reason that a shot clock can't be instituted for HS. people want to talk about the $$$ to install and getting people to run it. here's how that's fixed:

if the state passes the rule of say, a 35 or 40 second shot clock (i prefer 35), then THE STATE needs to pay for the install/equipment into ALL high schools AND need to train/hire people to WORK the sites to run the clock. basically just like another referee.

if the state wants to pass the rule, then find the $$$ to make it happen for all schools. the shot clock should be run by an "official", not Joe Schmoe Dad of one of the JV kids in the program.
When you say THE STATE do you mean the State of Ohio, State Board of Education, OHSAA...?

And even if THE STATE pays for all the shot clocks, training, etc. that you suggest....where is THE STATE going to get that money? And why should THE STATE pay for that over something else the schools might need to educate the children (their primary function)?

By saying THE STATE you do realize that doesn't mean its free right? The cost to install & train will be high and the funds have to come from someplace. You're not fixing anything by saying THE STATE will pay for it.

It's a needless expense that won't do anything to improve the game.
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  #42  
Old 09-25-18, 11:25 AM
Bballer05 Bballer05 is offline
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Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
When you say THE STATE do you mean the State of Ohio, State Board of Education, OHSAA...?

And even if THE STATE pays for all the shot clocks, training, etc. that you suggest....where is THE STATE going to get that money? And why should THE STATE pay for that over something else the schools might need to educate the children (their primary function)?

By saying THE STATE you do realize that doesn't mean its free right? The cost to install & train will be high and the funds have to come from someplace. You're not fixing anything by saying THE STATE will pay for it.

It's a needless expense that won't do anything to improve the game.
i should've clarified - if the OHSAA wants to pass the rule of the shot clock, then they have to find a way to fund it so schools can use it properly - i.e., an "official" keeping it during games, etc.
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  #43  
Old 09-25-18, 11:34 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bballer05 View Post
it's not a "fraction" of the games.
So what's the percentage of the games that are "stall ball" in Ohio?
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  #44  
Old 09-25-18, 11:37 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bballer05 View Post
if the state passes the rule of say, a 35 or 40 second shot clock (i prefer 35), then THE STATE needs to pay for the install/equipment into ALL high schools AND need to train/hire people to WORK the sites to run the clock. basically just like another referee.
And who is going to pay for the roughly $3,200,000 (800 x $4,000 if done properly) installation of said clocks?

That's installation costs only....

Then there's operation costs....
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  #45  
Old 09-25-18, 11:40 AM
winbypin winbypin is online now
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Originally Posted by Bballer05 View Post
i should've clarified - if the OHSAA wants to pass the rule of the shot clock, then they have to find a way to fund it so schools can use it properly - i.e., an "official" keeping it during games, etc.
so they still have to find a way to pay for it. And could that money be used elsewhere or better?

And the schools pay for officials already. This added cost would fall on the schools too.

The game is fine. This would be an unnecessary burden on the schools, THE STATE, or whoever with little to no benefit.
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  #46  
Old 09-25-18, 11:42 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by Bballer05 View Post
if the state passes the rule
The OHSAA will never pass a rule implementing the shot clock outside the scope of NFHS rules. It will need to become a mandatory rule or a rule approved via state adoption and sanctioned by the NFHS.
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  #47  
Old 09-25-18, 11:46 AM
Yappi Yappi is offline
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Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
So what's the percentage of the games that are "stall ball" in Ohio?
Honestly, I've never seen one. I've seen teams hold the ball for the last 2 minutes of a half before but never a whole game.

Since this topic comes up every year, I would love to see the NBA play a whole season without a shot clock. IMO, that would make the NBA more watchable. Run and gun is fun to watch for a while but it becomes monotonous and boring, especially in an 82 game season. High school basketball has a beauty that the NBA will never capture because of the extreme differences in style of play and short seasons with kids giving it their all in every game on every play.
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  #48  
Old 09-25-18, 11:54 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by Yappi View Post
Honestly, I've never seen one. I've seen teams hold the ball for the last 2 minutes of a half before but never a whole game.

Since this topic comes up every year, I would love to see the NBA play a whole season without a shot clock. IMO, that would make the NBA more watchable. Run and gun is fun to watch for a while but it becomes monotonous and boring, especially in an 82 game season. High school basketball has a beauty that the NBA will never capture because of the extreme differences in style of play and short seasons with kids giving it their all in every game on every play.
The shot clock saved the NBA. In fact, it's being tweaked for this upcoming season by resetting the clock to 14 seconds after offensive rebounds.

However, the NBA exists to entertain and to provide a profit for the owners. That's not ( for the umpteenth time ) the reason, as you indicated, why HS basketball exits.
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  #49  
Old 09-25-18, 01:58 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Providing a shot clock in high school (30-35 seconds) allows coaches enough time to implement effective sets, while also enabling players to use their skills to create when they have to. Basketball players need to be able to do both.

To me, adding a shot clock advances the skill set of the players involved, which advances the quality of the game. That benefits everyone long-term.

Too many games are dictated by coaching. Adding a shot clock doesn't automatically assume higher scoring - that's a bad assumption and usually where people start with this argument. It enables a more complete basketball player. More of those type of players enables a more watchable and enjoyable product.

Last edited by trey2k; 09-25-18 at 02:25 PM.
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  #50  
Old 09-25-18, 03:20 PM
winbypin winbypin is online now
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
Providing a shot clock in high school (30-35 seconds) allows coaches enough time to implement effective sets, while also enabling players to use their skills to create when they have to. Basketball players need to be able to do both.

To me, adding a shot clock advances the skill set of the players involved, which advances the quality of the game. That benefits everyone long-term.

Too many games are dictated by coaching. Adding a shot clock doesn't automatically assume higher scoring - that's a bad assumption and usually where people start with this argument. It enables a more complete basketball player. More of those type of players enables a more watchable and enjoyable product.
I've honestly never watched a high school basketball game where it wasn't enjoyable or watchable. I might have left disappointed because my team lost but that wasn't because it wasn't enjoyable or watchable.

A shot clock won't advance the skill set of the players involved...only their work on improving their skill set will do that. As far as kids being able to create when they have to...I see that a lot already.

It's already been pointed out that the average possession in high school basketball is around 22 seconds. So you want a 30-35 second shot clock? What does that give you then?
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  #51  
Old 09-25-18, 05:01 PM
BASESWIMPARENT BASESWIMPARENT is offline
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I have watched several very slow games with supposedly top teams playing in those games. It is very hard for me to sit through. I don't remember the games being that slow when I was in school or even 15 years ago. Coaches have gotten too involved. Let the kids play. Too answer above, 36 to 34 GCL games are ridiculous and I am pretty sure that they were not like that in the 80's even without the shot clock. The shot clock may not increase the scores but it will increase the action
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  #52  
Old 09-25-18, 05:06 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by BASESWIMPARENT View Post
I have watched several very slow games with supposedly top teams playing in those games. It is very hard for me to sit through. I don't remember the games being that slow when I was in school or even 15 years ago. Coaches have gotten too involved. Let the kids play. Too answer above, 36 to 34 GCL games are ridiculous and I am pretty sure that they were not like that in the 80's even without the shot clock. The shot clock may not increase the scores but it will increase the action
and a 35 second shot clock increases action how ?
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  #53  
Old 09-25-18, 05:21 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Remember, annually there are roughly 9,000 varsity basketball games played in Ohio.... Multiply by 3 for Varsity, JV, and Frosh..... Hundreds of thousands of games played nationally......

The occurrences of stalling are minute compared to the whole body of work.
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  #54  
Old 09-25-18, 05:59 PM
Curious One Curious One is offline
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Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
Remember, annually there are roughly 9,000 varsity basketball games played in Ohio.... Multiply by 3 for Varsity, JV, and Frosh..... Hundreds of thousands of games played nationally......

The occurrences of stalling are minute compared to the whole body of work.
And double to include the girls! What about middle schools?
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  #55  
Old 09-25-18, 06:03 PM
BASESWIMPARENT BASESWIMPARENT is offline
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A shot clock forces action. Call it what you want but passing the ball around the perimeter for 1 minute or 2 looking for the perfect entry pass or not so long mid range jumper is slow. Start in high school freshman games and if the girls would like their game to reflect the college and pro game hen do it for them too. Honestly, high school basketball is not the same game as the college and pro and international game. As far as the NFHS, get them to change it too.
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  #56  
Old 09-25-18, 06:04 PM
BASESWIMPARENT BASESWIMPARENT is offline
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Just as an aside, do the AAU tourneys use a shot clock?
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  #57  
Old 09-25-18, 06:20 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by Curious One View Post
And double to include the girls! What about middle schools?
Exactly..

I tried to edit my post earlier to account for that, but somehow screwed up...

Shot clock below the Frosh level would be worse for the game than the 3point line.
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  #58  
Old 09-25-18, 06:22 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by BASESWIMPARENT View Post
Just as an aside, do the AAU tourneys use a shot clock?
Yes

And the basketball is awful. (just like it's rare on the broad scope that stalling occurs, it's a small % of AAU ball that is really good compared to the broad scope)
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  #59  
Old 09-25-18, 06:23 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by BASESWIMPARENT View Post
A shot clock forces action. Call it what you want but passing the ball around the perimeter for 1 minute or 2 looking for the perfect entry pass or not so long mid range jumper is slow.

And again.... even if you account for 20 field goal attempts per game being attempted due to stick backs and bust outs, those original attempts occur in less than 30 seconds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BASESWIMPARENT View Post
Start in high school freshman games and if the girls would like their game to reflect the college and pro game hen do it for them too.

Not the job of HS sports to prepare kids for College and Pros.

Never has been, never will be. You need a better reason for the change than is commonly proposed.
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  #60  
Old 09-25-18, 06:36 PM
BASESWIMPARENT BASESWIMPARENT is offline
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Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
Not the job of HS sports to prepare kids for College and Pros.

Never has been, never will be.
Then everyone needs to quit complaining about the unsavory characters in AAU ball. It more closely resembles the modern game of basketball. It is here most of the recruiting happens and it is where all the illicit money enters the game,. I personally would rather have the good characters in high school basketball involved with the development of our student athletes. And yes, if high school athletics are supposed to prepare our young men and women for he future, then developing them for college ball (at all levels) and perhaps pro ball (at all levels) would be better for all involved. It is not mutually exclusive to develop all levels of players and have high school athletics. Honestly, it is this attitude that is causing academies, clubs and other organizations to encroach upon what used to be the purveyance of our high school programs.
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