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  #1  
Old 09-14-18, 10:48 PM
Yappi Yappi is offline
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"No" to the shot clock in HS basketball

Just a little vent. Watching a HS football game, this was one of those fields that actually has the play clock visible. I assume it is one person who runs the play clock and it's his/her only job. About 25% of the time, they screwed up. Didn't start it on time, started it way too early, or simply didn't start it all.

With 1600 varsity basketball teams in Ohio (boys and girls), I can only imagine how bad some of shot clock operators would be. When the play clock operator messes up, they have the option of doing it on the field. Not sure basketball would enjoy such a luxury.
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  #2  
Old 09-15-18, 07:32 AM
Blue Jay Fan Blue Jay Fan is offline
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I was under the impression that a ref on the field controlled the play clock. And I can't recall being at a game where there wasn't a visible play clock.
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  #3  
Old 09-15-18, 08:28 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Jay Fan View Post
I was under the impression that a ref on the field controlled the play clock. And I can't recall being at a game where there wasn't a visible play clock.
On a field where there is no play clock (which is the vast majority of HS fields in Ohio) the Back Judge is responsible for the keeping the play clock......

On a field where there is a visible play clock, there is a specific clock operator responsible for maintaining the clock. His only job is to watch the White Hat (Referee) for the signal to start or reset the clock.

Yappi is correct in pointing out that there are many more opportunities for shot clock issues in basketball than there are in football.
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  #4  
Old 09-15-18, 01:14 PM
D4fan D4fan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Jay Fan View Post
I was under the impression that a ref on the field controlled the play clock. And I can't recall being at a game where there wasn't a visible play clock.
That must be a MAC thing, not many play clocks small school ball Sw ohio.


As for the shot clock, would be very detrimental to high school ball, especially low level small schools. State caliber may not change much, but still like old way of a team saying I will hold the ball until you sub out your tall slow kids and let's see if you can catch us? Makes for more entertaining matchups.
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  #5  
Old 09-15-18, 06:29 PM
SeeYaSometime SeeYaSometime is offline
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I know I've been at games, and I imagine you have also, where we've seen the game clock manipulated to favor a team. So it's no surprise to believe it would happen with a shot clock monitored by a non official as well. A concern for sure.
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  #6  
Old 09-16-18, 12:40 PM
yappimember67 yappimember67 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D4fan View Post
That must be a MAC thing, not many play clocks small school ball Sw ohio.


As for the shot clock, would be very detrimental to high school ball, especially low level small schools. State caliber may not change much, but still like old way of a team saying I will hold the ball until you sub out your tall slow kids and let's see if you can catch us? Makes for more entertaining matchups.
Not sure how that's entertaining. I watched a game this past season where a team literally held the ball an entire quarter. A single shot was not taken in the quarter. This isn't entertaining for anyone, and probably even worse for the players. I don't think players on either side want to be playing keep away.
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  #7  
Old 09-16-18, 08:28 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yappimember67 View Post
Not sure how that's entertaining. I watched a game this past season where a team literally held the ball an entire quarter. A single shot was not taken in the quarter. This isn't entertaining for anyone, and probably even worse for the players. I don't think players on either side want to be playing keep away.
I am sure if the strategy works out for the underdog those kids are ok with it. Or if it gives them a shot in a game they would otherwise get destroyed in. THAT isn't entertaining either.
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  #8  
Old 09-17-18, 05:42 PM
BASESWIMPARENT BASESWIMPARENT is offline
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Fairfield has a play clock on the football field. Have never seen a problem. High school basketball needs a shot clock. It is not watchable.
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  #9  
Old 09-17-18, 08:08 PM
yappimember67 yappimember67 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
I am sure if the strategy works out for the underdog those kids are ok with it. Or if it gives them a shot in a game they would otherwise get destroyed in. THAT isn't entertaining either.
So, we should keep rules that might be helping the worse team win? Shot clocks or play clocks are used in many high school sports. It's not going to ruin the sport for high school kids.
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  #10  
Old 09-17-18, 09:25 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yappimember67 View Post
So, we should keep rules that might be helping the worse team win? Shot clocks or play clocks are used in many high school sports. It's not going to ruin the sport for high school kids.
We should keep the rules that give kids the best chance to compete. Other than football, what sport has a play clock or shot clock in high school sports?

I would much rather see an overmatched team still in the game late because they played stall ball than a game that is over in the first quarter.
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  #11  
Old 09-18-18, 06:08 AM
MCGal MCGal is offline
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This has always been my primary argument against shot clock... the cost of installing them in every gym and AD's already struggle to find enough people to keep score/do scorebook/etc.
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  #12  
Old 09-18-18, 10:31 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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A shot is attempted in the average HS game every 22 seconds..... knowing that fact, someone please give me the logic of a 30 second clock.......


People want to change the rules because of a fraction of the total games played aren't the at pace they want to see.....

HS sports do not exist with the primary goal of entertaining the fans. You have the NCAA and NBA for entertainment.
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  #13  
Old 09-18-18, 02:24 PM
thavoice thavoice is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yappi View Post
Just a little vent. Watching a HS football game, this was one of those fields that actually has the play clock visible. I assume it is one person who runs the play clock and it's his/her only job. About 25% of the time, they screwed up. Didn't start it on time, started it way too early, or simply didn't start it all.

With 1600 varsity basketball teams in Ohio (boys and girls), I can only imagine how bad some of shot clock operators would be. When the play clock operator messes up, they have the option of doing it on the field. Not sure basketball would enjoy such a luxury.
In terms of the football ones. I have seen them, this past weekend include, malfunction often.

There were times when it would pause on one end of the field, keep; going on the other side and be a few seconds different. I have seen that before with my alma matre too where something lags in the timing mechanism
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  #14  
Old 09-18-18, 03:24 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thavoice View Post
In terms of the football ones. I have seen them, this past weekend include, malfunction often.

There were times when it would pause on one end of the field, keep; going on the other side and be a few seconds different. I have seen that before with my alma matre too where something lags in the timing mechanism
Our school has a new, wireless scoreboard (no play clock though). And on certain days and at certain times, it doesn't respond properly due to a local business's interference (our best guess). There appears to be a lag from when you change the score or stop the clock to when it actually does on the scoreboard.

I imagine that any school that adds the play clocks as a retrofit to their existing system will go the wireless route too. I am sure that the systems are nice but its not like high schools can afford NBA, NFL, or NCAA level systems either. System issues don't help if questions about unethical clock managers come up.
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  #15  
Old 09-18-18, 06:09 PM
serpico serpico is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
A shot is attempted in the average HS game every 22 seconds..... knowing that fact, someone please give me the logic of a 30 second clock.......
I’m agnostic on this issue, but consider all the second and third chance stickback opportunities that occur within a few seconds of the original shot, or quick turnovers in the backcourt that lead to fast breaks. Those obviously skew the 22 second figure you mention.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
HS sports do not exist with the primary goal of entertaining the fans. You have the NCAA and NBA for entertainment.
This I agree with completely.
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  #16  
Old 09-19-18, 05:51 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serpico View Post
I’m agnostic on this issue, but consider all the second and third chance stickback opportunities that occur within a few seconds of the original shot, or quick turnovers in the backcourt that lead to fast breaks. Those obviously skew the 22 second figure you mention.
Take 10 of those attempts away to account for stick backs and bust outs and the average goes to 25 seconds....

Take 20 of those attempts away to account for stick backs and bust outs and the average goes to 29.......
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  #17  
Old 09-19-18, 07:51 AM
Vike16 Vike16 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
A shot is attempted in the average HS game every 22 seconds..... knowing that fact, someone please give me the logic of a 30 second clock.......


People want to change the rules because of a fraction of the total games played aren't the at pace they want to see.....

HS sports do not exist with the primary goal of entertaining the fans. You have the NCAA and NBA for entertainment.

Maybe this is why Ohio high school basketball attendance is getting worse every year. We would rather watch a team hold the ball for 5 to 9 minutes on 1 possession so they have a shot at winning smdh.

To be honest there are a lot of teams I refuse to watch because they take 3 to 6 mins. possessions. But its all about getting the worst team a chance
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  #18  
Old 09-19-18, 08:02 AM
MCGal MCGal is offline
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That argument is so weak... take all of the basketball games that are played vs the infinitesimally small number where teams hold the ball like that and it's a ridiculously small percentage.

If teams don't like a team to stall, play defense/pressure the ball. It's not difficult.
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  #19  
Old 09-19-18, 08:33 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vike16 View Post
Maybe this is why Ohio high school basketball attendance is getting worse every year. We would rather watch a team hold the ball for 5 to 9 minutes on 1 possession so they have a shot at winning smdh.

To be honest there are a lot of teams I refuse to watch because they take 3 to 6 mins. possessions. But its all about getting the worst team a chance
again... you are talking about a small percentage of games where this occurs.... in fact, microscopic when compared to the basketball as a whole.

and again.... HS basketball does not exist for the purpose of entertaining you. No coach sits down and says "hmmm.... how do we entertain people on Friday?"..... they prepare by devising a plan that will give his/her team the best chance to win.

As far as the quality... well we agree on that point..... Part of it in my opinion is the use of the three point line below the Freshman level. I along with many of my colleagues watch kids learning the game focus on the 19'9" shot rather than truly learning how to score. Eliminate the line at the lower levels, move it back at the upper levels.

Those two moves, in my opinion, ( which along with $1 will get you a large Coke at McDonalds ) will help.
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  #20  
Old 09-19-18, 08:43 AM
coachablekid coachablekid is offline
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Great point, shoot we can't get the scoreboard operators to get it right at times.
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  #21  
Old 09-19-18, 08:58 AM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MCGal View Post
That argument is so weak... take all of the basketball games that are played vs the infinitesimally small number where teams hold the ball like that and it's a ridiculously small percentage.

If teams don't like a team to stall, play defense/pressure the ball. It's not difficult.
Agree. And most the time stall ball happens in the tournament when its do or die.
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  #22  
Old 09-19-18, 11:17 AM
zebrastripes zebrastripes is offline
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Unless some basketball-obsessed donor with large pockets is footing the bill for 800 high schools (plus however many middle schools) to install two clocks in each gym, configure them correctly, and pay another person at the table to operate it each night, it's simply not going to happen, folks. You can make all the arguments you want, but the bottom line is that budget-conscious administrators run the show and write the checks, and this issue doesn't even show up on their radar (nor should it).

And I'm anti-shot clock for all the reasons already mentioned.
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  #23  
Old 09-19-18, 12:18 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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The operator will have to be a licensed official. One who understands what constitutes possession, definition of a try , etc....... much more involved her than clock off on a whistle and clock on when the official chops it in.
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  #24  
Old 09-19-18, 01:05 PM
voice_of_reason voice_of_reason is offline
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Where do we get the stats of a shot attempt every 22 seconds? Can we post a link on this, I think that is an interesting stat.
How does that change, if you have a 30 second shot clock, 45 second shot clock?

No coach is developing his team to be entertaining!
The NCAA & NBA teams use the shot clock and many of them are not entertaining!

I am for a shot clock, the game is developing world wide, why shouldn't OHSAA?

Last edited by voice_of_reason; 09-19-18 at 01:15 PM. Reason: editting, added more to my comments
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  #25  
Old 09-19-18, 02:06 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by voice_of_reason View Post
I am for a shot clock, the game is developing world wide, why shouldn't OHSAA?
Because there is no need and it won't impact the game any.
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  #26  
Old 09-19-18, 02:22 PM
zebrastripes zebrastripes is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by voice_of_reason View Post
I am for a shot clock, the game is developing world wide, why shouldn't OHSAA?
Why don't you ask the NFHS, whose rules the OHSAA follows and whose rules don't permit it? Why don't you ask the other 41 states that don't use it?

The eight states that use it gave up their vote on the NFHS committee-the OHSAA has made clear that it is not willing to do that.
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  #27  
Old 09-19-18, 04:04 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Nationally, out the 8 states that employ the shot clock, only one of them (North Dakota I believe) is in the top 10 in average scoring.

So how's that going to improved scoring.
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  #28  
Old 09-19-18, 04:08 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by voice_of_reason View Post
The NCAA & NBA teams use the shot clock and many of them are not entertaining!

I am for a shot clock, the game is developing world wide, why shouldn't OHSAA?
The NBA and the NCAA are in business to make money. That's their primary function.

That's not remotely the purpose of HS athletics.
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  #29  
Old 09-19-18, 06:51 PM
BASESWIMPARENT BASESWIMPARENT is offline
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So here is my story: Went to watch some state tournament games a few years ago at Fairfield. Happen to be Walnut Hills and Moeller. Both teams had D1 prospects. After three quarters the score was 24 to 21 Moeller. All the screens and holding going on in the paint passing around the perimeter with no action made the game incredibly and looked in no way what u see on in the NCAA and NBA. It was terrible basketball played by two of the best teams in the area. AAU is attractive because it is so free flowing but the ethics and morals in that world are questionable at best. But it way better basketball. Get the shot clock and quit making excuses. High school basketball has never been worse in this area.
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  #30  
Old 09-19-18, 07:39 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BASESWIMPARENT View Post
So here is my story: Went to watch some state tournament games a few years ago at Fairfield. Happen to be Walnut Hills and Moeller. Both teams had D1 prospects. After three quarters the score was 24 to 21 Moeller. All the screens and holding going on in the paint passing around the perimeter with no action made the game incredibly and looked in no way what u see on in the NCAA and NBA. It was terrible basketball played by two of the best teams in the area. AAU is attractive because it is so free flowing but the ethics and morals in that world are questionable at best. But it way better basketball. Get the shot clock and quit making excuses. High school basketball has never been worse in this area.
So what you're saying is a high school game didn't resemble a NCAA or NBA game?

Shocking!
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