Yappi Sports - THE Ohio Prep Sports Authority  

Go Back   Yappi Sports - THE Ohio Prep Sports Authority > Boys HS Sports > Boys Basketball

Hello Guest!
Take a minute to register, It's 100% FREE! What are you waiting for?
Register Now
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #181  
Old 10-11-18, 02:16 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
All American
 
Join Date: 12-21-15
Posts: 2,215
trey2k is an unknown quantity at this point
Quote:
Originally Posted by zebrastripes View Post
You simply refuse to acknowledge the fact that a microscopic proportion of games involve this strategy that you hate. The rules aren't going to change to compensate for the improbability of that strategy being used.

I never said refs are not guilty of allowing overly physical play. I simply said that my area does a good job of enforcing the rules. The hand-checking rules put into place at all levels were enacted largely because officials wouldn't enforce points of emphasis.

And I'm hardly one to defend officials at all costs, but I do take the opinions of fans with a grain of salt. After all, I don't come into your office and tell you how to do your job. Absent you providing some real evidence that officials are not enforcing rules at the games you voluntarily choose to watch, I respectfully don't put much stock into your opinion.
1) Eliminating stalling is simple ONE of the reasons I would like to see a shot clock. It's not the only. I've more than elaborated on my position on this. This isn't a black and white solution.
2) And people that aren't officials take officials opinions of other officials with a grain of salt. My own eyes are my evidence. You automatically don't believe it because I'm banging on "your crew". Ask anyone that watches GCL games, the hand-checking, pushing, bumping, and grabbing is OUT OF CONTROL. It's not called nearly enough to discourage the physical onslaught. It's why games are 34-30, and it's terrible.
Reply With Quote
  #182  
Old 10-11-18, 02:17 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
All American
 
Join Date: 12-21-15
Posts: 2,215
trey2k is an unknown quantity at this point
Quote:
Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
That is your opinion. Some might agree. Some will not. But that isn't a reason to add a shot clock.
There's never one reason to do something.

But it is A reason.
Reply With Quote
  #183  
Old 10-11-18, 02:21 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
All Yappi
 
Join Date: 09-12-06
Posts: 9,370
winbypin will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
There's never one reason to do something.

But it is A reason.
YOUR opinion really has no weight in the discussion.
Reply With Quote
  #184  
Old 10-11-18, 02:24 PM
zebrastripes zebrastripes is offline
All District
 
Join Date: 12-26-14
Posts: 223
zebrastripes is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
2) And people that aren't officials take officials opinions of other officials with a grain of salt. My own eyes are my evidence. You automatically don't believe it because I'm banging on "your crew". Ask anyone that watches GCL games, the hand-checking, pushing, bumping, and grabbing is OUT OF CONTROL. It's not called nearly enough to discourage the physical onslaught. It's why games are 34-30, and it's terrible.
Wrong. I don't automatically believe you because you aren't a certified official.

People have encouraged you to go watch non-GCL games. I'm guessing you won't.

You play to win the game.
Reply With Quote
  #185  
Old 10-11-18, 02:24 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
All American
 
Join Date: 12-21-15
Posts: 2,215
trey2k is an unknown quantity at this point
What magic powers do you have that makes your opinion any weightier than mine?

Besides the fact that you obviously can't handle differing opinions, and need that "right" or "wrong" validation in your life.

Life don't work that way bud.
Reply With Quote
  #186  
Old 10-11-18, 02:26 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
All American
 
Join Date: 12-21-15
Posts: 2,215
trey2k is an unknown quantity at this point
Quote:
Originally Posted by zebrastripes View Post
Wrong. I don't automatically believe you because you aren't a certified official.

People have encouraged you to go watch non-GCL games. I'm guessing you won't.

You play to win the game.
I will ask you the same question then...what makes your opinion a stronger argument? It's also simply an opinion.

No better or worse than anyone else's.
Reply With Quote
  #187  
Old 10-11-18, 02:29 PM
zebrastripes zebrastripes is offline
All District
 
Join Date: 12-26-14
Posts: 223
zebrastripes is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
I will ask you the same question then...what makes your opinion a stronger argument? It's also simply an opinion.

No better or worse than anyone else's.
You said it, not me.
Reply With Quote
  #188  
Old 10-11-18, 02:50 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
All Yappi
 
Join Date: 09-12-06
Posts: 9,370
winbypin will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
What magic powers do you have that makes your opinion any weightier than mine?

Besides the fact that you obviously can't handle differing opinions, and need that "right" or "wrong" validation in your life.

Life don't work that way bud.
didn't say my opinion has any more or less weight than yours.

almost all of your opinions are emotion based though. boring to watch, chicken poop, gcl this & that, etc.

the facts are that even if every gcl game is played that way its still a very small percentage of total games each season.

you want to change the rules based on your personal preference. maybe just watch some different leagues and games.
Reply With Quote
  #189  
Old 10-11-18, 02:53 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
All American
 
Join Date: 12-21-15
Posts: 2,215
trey2k is an unknown quantity at this point
So me saying watching a stall ball game is boring is an emotion...not an opinion.

OK - got it.

It's also funny how all of your "facts" are true, and not simply your opinion. LOL
Reply With Quote
  #190  
Old 10-11-18, 03:25 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
All Yappi
 
Join Date: 09-12-06
Posts: 9,370
winbypin will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
So me saying watching a stall ball game is boring is an emotion...not an opinion.

OK - got it.

It's also funny how all of your "facts" are true, and not simply your opinion. LOL
no, its your opinion based on an emotion. Which is what I said.

are you disputing that even if you factor in the gcl that its a very small percentage of games that are played with stall ball?
Reply With Quote
  #191  
Old 10-11-18, 03:28 PM
zebrastripes zebrastripes is offline
All District
 
Join Date: 12-26-14
Posts: 223
zebrastripes is on a distinguished road
And the facts also include that a shot clock is a logistical nightmare, from cost to personnel to the fact that the NFHS doesn't even allow it. No one can dispute that.

It's not going to happen.
Reply With Quote
  #192  
Old 10-11-18, 04:19 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
All World
 
Join Date: 01-31-07
Posts: 3,484
AllSports12 is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
So me saying watching a stall ball game is boring is an emotion...not an opinion.

OK - got it.

It's also funny how all of your "facts" are true, and not simply your opinion. LOL
For the umpteenth time.....

Interscholastic athletic contests do not exist for the purpose of entertaining the fans... or even just a few of them.... the rule isn't going to change to appease an even smaller minority than we are talking about when it comes to the games in question.

As far as the GCL, did you ever take time to think that maybe you should direct your angst at the coaches who demand the game be called differently? Maybe then the guys who call the game as you want them to call it will make themselves available to work those games.

This, assuming all your observations about the officiating are accurate....
Reply With Quote
  #193  
Old 10-11-18, 04:22 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
All World
 
Join Date: 01-31-07
Posts: 3,484
AllSports12 is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
are you disputing that even if you factor in the gcl that its a very small percentage of games that are played with stall ball?
That question has never been answered no matter who it is directed towards.
Reply With Quote
  #194  
Old 10-11-18, 05:19 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
All American
 
Join Date: 12-21-15
Posts: 2,215
trey2k is an unknown quantity at this point
Quote:
Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
no, its your opinion based on an emotion. Which is what I said.

are you disputing that even if you factor in the gcl that its a very small percentage of games that are played with stall ball?
Me thinking the high school game would be better with a shot clock is no different than you thinking the game is just fine the way it is.

Not sure what part of that you don't understand.

Can't I just say you want to keep it the same because that's your opinion based on emotion? It's literally the weirdest thing I've ever heard, yet you keep repeating it. It's very strange.
Reply With Quote
  #195  
Old 10-11-18, 05:21 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
All American
 
Join Date: 12-21-15
Posts: 2,215
trey2k is an unknown quantity at this point
Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
For the umpteenth time.....

Interscholastic athletic contests do not exist for the purpose of entertaining the fans... or even just a few of them.... the rule isn't going to change to appease an even smaller minority than we are talking about when it comes to the games in question.

As far as the GCL, did you ever take time to think that maybe you should direct your angst at the coaches who demand the game be called differently? Maybe then the guys who call the game as you want them to call it will make themselves available to work those games.

This, assuming all your observations about the officiating are accurate....
I think a shot clock would improve the high school game, for the 589th time, in more ways than just eliminating stalling. I have plenty of posts describing my opinions that aren't related to stalling.

Not sure why this is so hard to comprehend.

Am I allowed to like chocolate over vanilla? Do you give me permission?
Reply With Quote
  #196  
Old 10-11-18, 06:13 PM
BASESWIMPARENT BASESWIMPARENT is offline
All Region
 
Join Date: 12-21-16
Posts: 338
BASESWIMPARENT is on a distinguished road
Ok, so the latest posters are not reading the thread. Let's list the reasons why there should be a shot clock:
1. It provides a sense of urgency to force the action
2. It rewards better skilled and fitter players
3. It is the way the game is played at every level above it. (it is like playing t-ball versus playing baseball as a five and six year old)
Finally , we can all agree that it would not be necessary if teams would play the game like they played 10,15 or 20 years ago.
Reply With Quote
  #197  
Old 10-11-18, 06:55 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
All World
 
Join Date: 01-31-07
Posts: 3,484
AllSports12 is on a distinguished road
Neither myself nor zebrastripes have offered our opinions whether or not it should be used, we've offered facts as to why it shouldn't be used. I could care less if I work a game that have me sprinting for 32 minutes or standing for 32 minutes. I have a job to do on either and will do it to my best of ability.

If you can bring facts as to why the clock should be used, facts that fall in line with why the HS game exists to start with, then we can have some good conversation.
Reply With Quote
  #198  
Old 10-11-18, 08:07 PM
BASESWIMPARENT BASESWIMPARENT is offline
All Region
 
Join Date: 12-21-16
Posts: 338
BASESWIMPARENT is on a distinguished road
What facts are u looking for?
Reply With Quote
  #199  
Old 10-11-18, 08:21 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
All Yappi
 
Join Date: 09-12-06
Posts: 9,370
winbypin will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by BASESWIMPARENT View Post
Ok, so the latest posters are not reading the thread. Let's list the reasons why there should be a shot clock:
1. It provides a sense of urgency to force the action
2. It rewards better skilled and fitter players
3. It is the way the game is played at every level above it. (it is like playing t-ball versus playing baseball as a five and six year old)
Finally , we can all agree that it would not be necessary if teams would play the game like they played 10,15 or 20 years ago.
I made the 7th post in this thread - and one before you. Read the whole thing as has allsports and zebra stripes. We all have posted multiple times throughout.

The average possession is already less than what the shot clock would be. So how does that force the action exactly? Other than the handful of games you deem boring anyway.

Because the higher levels (where less than 3% of the players make it) use a shot clock isn't a reason it is needed in high school. Using your weak baseball comparison I guess we should outlaw aluminum bats? The pros use wood bats therefore all levels must use wood bats then.

Not even sure what "rewarding better skilled and fitter players" means. Less skilled or fit players don't deserve the be rewarded in high school sports? Seems to me you might be misguided as to what the purpose of high School sports is really.

Finally, everything was better in the good ol' days. I am sure you were a better player then too. At least in your mind.
Reply With Quote
  #200  
Old 10-11-18, 08:36 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
All American
 
Join Date: 12-21-15
Posts: 2,215
trey2k is an unknown quantity at this point
You guys keep saying the argument for a shot clock is "forcing the action" - you can't get away from that because that's everyone's superficial argument for having or not having a shot clock.

Those that truly know the game know that's not the point at all. You can have great games with quick pace or slow pace where a shot clock can be advantageous. You guys refuse to listen to that argument because your're stuck in the "force the action" and "AAU fast break" mentality.

That's not our argument at all. It's obvious on this thread who has a deeper understanding of the game that goes beyond Basketball 101. It's not obvious to you.

But I know, you're a ref, and refs know everything. Just ask them.

You might be saying factual statements, but that doesn't mean your opinion is the truth. It's deeper than that.
Reply With Quote
  #201  
Old 10-11-18, 08:43 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
All Yappi
 
Join Date: 09-12-06
Posts: 9,370
winbypin will become famous soon enough
Forcing action was literally basewimparent's first point. People on your side of the argument are the ones stating that. We are just pointing out the facts that almost all games are already played with fast action. Except the handful of games where a severely overmatched team tries to slow down the other team. And the gcl that you dont like to watch but keep going to.
Reply With Quote
  #202  
Old 10-11-18, 09:47 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
All World
 
Join Date: 01-31-07
Posts: 3,484
AllSports12 is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
You guys keep saying the argument for a shot clock is "forcing the action" -
That's your position... (stalling is "chickenbleep") I have never stated my position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
You guys refuse to listen to that argument because your're stuck in the "force the action" and "AAU fast break" mentality.
Um, I abhor anything AAU and have never even insinuated the style of basketball I prefer. The reason, it's irrelevant to what I do. You have me confused with someone else.


Quote:
Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
But I know, you're a ref, and refs know everything. Just ask them.
I know things that you don't know because of what I do and what I have done in the past. Attending state meetings, local meetings, national meetings.... friendships with people all over the country who are or were involved in the process both now and in the past...... I've shared on here what I can share and have kept private more than you can ever imagine. (integrity) If that bothers someone like you, well so be it..... That said, when you have nothing, you revert to attempting to insult and deflect.... save that petty garbage for your arguments with the lunatic from your school's discussion thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
You might be saying factual statements, but that doesn't mean your opinion is the truth. It's deeper than that.
Good Lord, do you even read what you type? If someone forms an opinion that is based in fact, how on earth can that opinion not be truthful? (and again, I have not shared any opinion on here)

You keep talking in circles...... I'm through with the likes of you

Last edited by AllSports12; 10-12-18 at 06:47 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #203  
Old 10-12-18, 12:21 AM
BASESWIMPARENT BASESWIMPARENT is offline
All Region
 
Join Date: 12-21-16
Posts: 338
BASESWIMPARENT is on a distinguished road
Forcing he action means that the intent of the offense is to try to score within a given time limit. Not passing it around the perimeter for 2 minutes trying to tire out the defense. Take stick backs out of the equation and what is the shot per minute equation. Finally, what is the average score today versus what was in the past? Quit trying to hide behind the 3% rule. I don't even know what is being divided by what. Modern basketball has a shot clock. Play the game with a shot clock or quit calling it basketball. Call it "pass it around the perimeter for 2 minutes" ball. The games I watch (when my son asked me to join him) are all tourney sectional and district semi and championship games. They are supposed to be the better teams against each other. These are the games that formed my opinion. Also here are many high school leagues across the country going to wood bats... just saying. My point is that high school basketball played in states without a shot clock is not the modern games of basketball. It is like playing on a smaller court with a smaller ball and a bigger basket. It is a fundamental part of the game. I could care less about the NFHS in this regard. It is made of of state high athletic associations. if they wanted a shot clock, they would have a shot clock. I am arguing for a shot clock.
Reply With Quote
  #204  
Old 10-12-18, 03:22 AM
D4fan D4fan is online now
All World
 
Join Date: 01-08-15
Location: At work
Posts: 3,071
D4fan is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by BASESWIMPARENT View Post
Ok, so the latest posters are not reading the thread. Let's list the reasons why there should be a shot clock:
1. It provides a sense of urgency to force the action
2. It rewards better skilled and fitter players
3. It is the way the game is played at every level above it. (it is like playing t-ball versus playing baseball as a five and six year old)
Finally , we can all agree that it would not be necessary if teams would play the game like they played 10,15 or 20 years ago.
Disagree with 2. Many times at the smaller schools (d4) you have mismatches between teams that are able to be overcame by intelligent design of offensive play. A team that has a large physical inside advantage may be tempted to play a 2-3 zone, but an opponent who patiently rotates the ball looking for the zone to tire and distort may get a good look at the basket without having to take a low percentage 3.

Again, the reason I attend high school ball vs college or NBA is because I enjoy watching how coaches overcome a mismatch. Adding a shot clock takes a significant option off the table. I will not continue attending high school games if we reduce them to poor versions of the college game.
Reply With Quote
  #205  
Old 10-12-18, 07:52 AM
zebrastripes zebrastripes is offline
All District
 
Join Date: 12-26-14
Posts: 223
zebrastripes is on a distinguished road
Anti-shot clock FACTS that have all been given on this thread:

-Overwhelming majority of HS possessions last under 30 seconds
-Skill levels of HS teams vary much more widely than higher levels, and NFHS rules cover a wider variety of age groups than NCAA or NBA rules
-HS sports do not exist to "get kids ready for the next level" (very small percentage go on to play in college) nor to entertain fans
-NFHS does not allow it, and the OHSAA has made clear it will not go against the NFHS
-Costs which would be crippling to many schools and districts
-Difficulty and cost of finding competent individuals to operate it

There are probably more that I'm missing.

Pro-shot clock FACTS that have all been given on this thread:

-The higher levels use it.

Every other pro-shot clock argument has been opinion- or emotion-based.
Reply With Quote
  #206  
Old 10-12-18, 08:03 AM
zebrastripes zebrastripes is offline
All District
 
Join Date: 12-26-14
Posts: 223
zebrastripes is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
But I know, you're a ref, and refs know everything. Just ask them.
I don't know everything. But I know more about rules, coaches, and the OHSAA than the average fan because I have gone through the training process and continually educate myself. If you would like to learn more about things refs know that average fans don't, I suggest you join us; there is a shortage of officials statewide and I'm sure the Cincy area would be happy to have you.

My guess would be that you won't, and you'll continue to go watch GCL games as a fanboy then come on here and complain about how awful they are and how everything was better in the good ol' days.
Reply With Quote
  #207  
Old 10-12-18, 08:03 AM
Sports Jock and Chad Sports Jock and Chad is offline
Varsity
 
Join Date: 11-12-17
Posts: 60
Sports Jock and Chad is on a distinguished road
Why do people think it is okay to stall in basketball? In football, you can burn some clock but you still have to snap the ball in an allotted time and try to make first downs even if you are leading...at sometime in the distant past those rules were implemented....There has been a shot clock in basketball since the 50's and has been slowly adopted by various levels...Several states now employ them and to my knowledge, they haven't imploded in any way...
Reply With Quote
  #208  
Old 10-12-18, 08:09 AM
zebrastripes zebrastripes is offline
All District
 
Join Date: 12-26-14
Posts: 223
zebrastripes is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sports Jock and Chad View Post
Why do people think it is okay to stall in basketball? In football, you can burn some clock but you still have to snap the ball in an allotted time and try to make first downs even if you are leading...at sometime in the distant past those rules were implemented....There has been a shot clock in basketball since the 50's and has been slowly adopted by various levels...Several states now employ them and to my knowledge, they haven't imploded in any way...
If you think stalling is unacceptable, that is, again, an opinion, not a fact. The FACT is that the proportion of games where stall ball is used is so minuscule compared to all the other high school games played, that it doesn't make any sense to fundamentally change the game to account for eliminating that strategy. And that is assuming that your premise of stalling being "wrong" is true.

Comparing sports makes no sense. In baseball coaches are allowed to come on the field to argue with umpires. Should we start allowing this in basketball?

Eight states use it. 42 states don't. Ohio is hardly in the minority.
Reply With Quote
  #209  
Old 10-12-18, 08:32 AM
trey2k trey2k is offline
All American
 
Join Date: 12-21-15
Posts: 2,215
trey2k is an unknown quantity at this point
Quote:
Originally Posted by zebrastripes View Post
If you think stalling is unacceptable, that is, again, an opinion, not a fact. The FACT is that the proportion of games where stall ball is used is so minuscule compared to all the other high school games played, that it doesn't make any sense to fundamentally change the game to account for eliminating that strategy. And that is assuming that your premise of stalling being "wrong" is true.

Comparing sports makes no sense. In baseball coaches are allowed to come on the field to argue with umpires. Should we start allowing this in basketball?

Eight states use it. 42 states don't. Ohio is hardly in the minority.
And they likely don't do it because of the logistical concerns (which is valid), not for the betterment of the game.

Why do you think football uses a play-clock at every level? Because they don't want you to be able to just bleed the clock and not actually play the game.

If you'd ask 100 of the best basketball minds in the world if a shot clock has been good for the game of basketball, how many do you think would disagree? Maybe 10%?
Reply With Quote
  #210  
Old 10-12-18, 08:41 AM
zebrastripes zebrastripes is offline
All District
 
Join Date: 12-26-14
Posts: 223
zebrastripes is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
And they likely don't do it because of the logistical concerns (which is valid), not for the betterment of the game.

Why do you think football uses a play-clock at every level? Because they don't want you to be able to just bleed the clock and not actually play the game.

If you'd ask 100 of the best basketball minds in the world if a shot clock has been good for the game of basketball, how many do you think would disagree? Maybe 10%?
In football if you didn't snap the ball it would never become live. In basketball teams can still force action against a stalling team because the ball is live. Why don't you ask the coaches why they don't come out and defend stallers to force a closely guarded count? Again, false equivalence.

"Good for the game of basketball" and "good for high school sports"/"good for the state of Ohio" are not the same thing.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Who would you like to see get the Canton McKinley Boys Head Basketball Position??? IUDOGS Boys Basketball 270 10-17-18 05:38 AM
OHSAA to Honor 6 Former Greats in Circle of Champions at Boys State Basketball Tourny Yappi Boys Basketball 0 03-20-18 11:08 AM
Wisconsin approves shot clock goshengophers Boys Basketball 127 01-17-18 10:47 PM
OHSAA Basketball and Wrestling State Tournament Tickets Go On Sale January 26 Yappi Boys Basketball 0 12-20-17 02:27 PM
D VII State Semifinal: St. Paul (13-0) vs Minster (9-4) EagleFan Football 130 11-27-17 08:26 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:50 AM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Registration Booster - Powered By Dirt RIF CustUmz