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  #91  
Old 10-12-17, 03:22 PM
ronnie mund ronnie mund is offline
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Originally Posted by lotr10 View Post
Now whose getting angry and melting down.
Nice GOTCHA attempt.

Having trouble finding a post of mine showing that I care whether or not the boy scouts accept female members?
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  #92  
Old 10-12-17, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by lotr10 View Post
I think the original rational for excluding girls from the Boy Scouts was similar to the rational that excludes girls from all boy parochial schools like Elder. There is a belief that for certain activities boys AND girls may benefit more when separated. And this belief is not without merit as it is backed up by evolutionary biology and a good deal of real life experience.

Ultimately as you say it is for the Boy Scouts to decide and if a sizable part of their membership disagrees with the decision they will likely depart and create alternative youth organizations that meet their children's needs.
You really haven't supported evolutionary biology angle at all. Do you really think mixed parochial high schools are somehow at a disadvantage to the same sex schools? I doubt there is any credible data to support that.

Essentially it comes down to tradition and a belief it makes a difference.
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  #93  
Old 10-12-17, 03:29 PM
ronnie mund ronnie mund is offline
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I would also like to see the data supporting that young boys preform outdoor activities better without the presence of females. Surely an evolutionary biology scholar such as lotr can point me in the right direction.
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  #94  
Old 10-12-17, 04:23 PM
Hammerdrill Hammerdrill is offline
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Originally Posted by ronnie mund View Post
You interpreted me posting how this isn't the downfall of western civilization as me caring about whether or not the boy scouts let girls in? Are you dense?
Ummm, yeah. You are posting on a thread about a subject that you say you don't care about. Those were your words. You don't care if BSA allows girls to join. So it would stand to reason that those who do care, would then discuss the issue. And those who don't care would not.
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  #95  
Old 10-12-17, 04:26 PM
ronnie mund ronnie mund is offline
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You're confusing two types of indifference. There's indifference to the topic entirely, and then there's indifference on whether or not the boy scouts allow girls in their club. My indifference stems from the latter. Not surprised that went over your head.
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  #96  
Old 10-12-17, 04:35 PM
Hammerdrill Hammerdrill is offline
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Originally Posted by ronnie mund View Post
You're confusing two types of indifference. There's indifference to the topic entirely, and then there's indifference on whether or not the boy scouts allow girls in their club. My indifference stems from the latter. Not surprised that went over your head.
But this is about them allowing girls in, that is the topic, which you are indifferent to, yet continue to post about.

So the topic you are not indifferent to is the over arching implication of this change? Is that what you care about? To put a finer point on it, the overarching implications that are NOT going to happen?
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  #97  
Old 10-12-17, 04:40 PM
ronnie mund ronnie mund is offline
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Originally Posted by Hammerdrill View Post
But this is about them allowing girls in, that is the topic, which you are indifferent to, yet continue to post about.

So the topic you are not indifferent to is the over arching implication of this change? Is that what you care about? To put a finer point on it, the overarching implications that are NOT going to happen?
What are the over arching implications of this change?
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  #98  
Old 10-12-17, 04:47 PM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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Originally Posted by 4cards View Post
...the pearl necklace I gave your wife says I'm not!
Whoa - shots fired!!
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  #99  
Old 10-12-17, 04:54 PM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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Originally Posted by Hammerdrill View Post
Well if you don't care, why are you posting?
Because he's a bored little troll, of course.
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  #100  
Old 10-12-17, 04:59 PM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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Originally Posted by Username1 View Post
In the Boy Scouts would they teach them how to hunt, gun safety, fishing, conservation? I
am asking because all the Scouts that I had coached at one time or the other was usually the nerd or just a kid that didn't know how to really socialize. Not that teaching more rugged outdoors stuff would change that, but it might give them a little more confidence knowing that if they could take out a deer with a bow then the kids messing with them wouldn't be an issue either. Just sayin'
Agreed. It always seemed that Scouts were for people who hadn't already figured out how to do what we just went out and did, or a few dads that led because they wanted to help provide those types of experiences to others. And an occasional oddball.
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  #101  
Old 10-12-17, 05:02 PM
Purplemojo Purplemojo is offline
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Originally Posted by lotr10 View Post
I think the original rational for excluding girls from the Boy Scouts was similar to the rational that excludes girls from all boy parochial schools like Elder. There is a belief that for certain activities boys AND girls may benefit more when separated. And this belief is not without merit as it is backed up by evolutionary biology and a good deal of real life experience.
The original rational for excluding girls was the same as the rational for starting scouting to begin with. Lord Baden Powell had observed in his military experience that young Englishmen, especially those from urban communities were ill prepared for military life. In order to prepare citizens for service in the military and for leadership in public life (both of which excluded women at the time) he started a program that would enhance young people's physical and moral development with an emphasis on woodcraft and citizenship which would make them better suited to military life.

Girl Scouts never had that mission. It was intended to make girls good homemakers.

Guess what? we now have women in the military and civil leadership positions. Giving them the same experience as provided by the BSA is completely consistent with what Baden Powell had envisioned. It was never about just hanging out and doing "guy stuff".
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  #102  
Old 10-12-17, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by eastside_purple View Post
First, there's really no reason to exclude girls from the activities Boy Scouts does. Second, if Boy Scouts wanted to remain exclusively all male, I'd have no problem with it. Third, if Boy Scouts feels this is a needed change to either benefit girls or just for their own survival, I have no issue with it.
It will change the social dynamic in many groups of young boys, obviously. Did someone else raise your kids for you, or are you just not that observant ? Seriously....

I'm not saying the change would be a bad thing, and in some situations I guess it could be better, but it will certainly be different in situations with girls.

Any troop or pack or coven or whatever they call themselves should have the option to remain all male, but I somehow doubt it will shake out that way.
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  #103  
Old 10-12-17, 05:21 PM
ronnie mund ronnie mund is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Purplemojo View Post
The original rational for excluding girls was the same as the rational for starting scouting to begin with. Lord Baden Powell had observed in his military experience that young Englishmen, especially those from urban communities were ill prepared for military life. In order to prepare citizens for service in the military and for leadership in public life (both of which excluded women at the time) he started a program that would enhance young people's physical and moral development with an emphasis on woodcraft and citizenship which would make them better suited to military life.

Girl Scouts never had that mission. It was intended to make girls good homemakers.

Guess what? we now have women in the military and civil leadership positions. Giving them the same experience as provided by the BSA is completely consistent with what Baden Powell had envisioned. It was never about just hanging out and doing "guy stuff".
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  #104  
Old 10-12-17, 06:11 PM
BlackHawk BlackHawk is offline
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Originally Posted by ohiopup View Post
At least 25+ years now...

and those programs are for the 14 year old and up crowd.

P.S. It will make the Tom-boys happy!

:>---

Just returned from MCAS Iwakuni (Japan).
It's been a long time since ohiopup posted on yappi.

What were you doing at a Marine Corp facility in Japan? Top secret?
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  #105  
Old 10-12-17, 08:55 PM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Purplemojo View Post
The original rational for excluding girls was the same as the rational for starting scouting to begin with. Lord Baden Powell had observed in his military experience that young Englishmen, especially those from urban communities were ill prepared for military life. In order to prepare citizens for service in the military and for leadership in public life (both of which excluded women at the time) he started a program that would enhance young people's physical and moral development with an emphasis on woodcraft and citizenship which would make them better suited to military life.

Girl Scouts never had that mission. It was intended to make girls good homemakers.

Guess what? we now have women in the military and civil leadership positions. Giving them the same experience as provided by the BSA is completely consistent with what Baden Powell had envisioned. It was never about just hanging out and doing "guy stuff".
Lord Powel may have emphasized military training preparedness in his creation of the Boy Scouts in the British Empire but the US version moved away from that model just a few years after the Boy Scouts were established in the States:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...uts_of_America

Wikipedia has a nice history of American scouting and it's safe to say that the mission of the scouts was not remotely militaristic from the 1920's on. And I never argued PM that it was just about "hanging out and doing guy stuff". It was focused on a number of goals ranging from developing outdoor crafts to improving the character of the boys & young men participating.

Here's a link to the oaths and motto's where I don't see a whole lot of getting them ready to fight the next war:

https://quizlet.com/2731315/boy-scou...e-flash-cards/

The most famous is:

A Scout Is:
Trustworthy, Loyal,
Helpful, Friendly,
Courteous, Kind,
Obedient, Cheerful,
Thrifty, Brave,
Clean, and Reverent.


And I agree that many of the Boy Scouts programs might be of interest and benefit to girls so either start a girl centered program or take advantage of the available girls and coed groups. Bottom line unless you believe there is no use or room for same sex groups whether they be the Girl Scouts or Boy Scouts or Seton High School or Elder High school I don't see why the Boy Scouts should alter their basic structure.
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  #106  
Old 10-12-17, 09:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lotr10 View Post
Lord Powel may have emphasized military training preparedness in his creation of the Boy Scouts in the British Empire but the US version moved away from that model just a few years after the Boy Scouts were established in the States:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...uts_of_America

Wikipedia has a nice history of American scouting and it's safe to say that the mission of the scouts was not remotely militaristic from the 1920's on. And I never argued PM that it was just about "hanging out and doing guy stuff". It was focused on a number of goals ranging from developing outdoor crafts to improving the character of the boys & young men participating.

Here's a link to the oaths and motto's where I don't see a whole lot of getting them ready to fight the next war:

https://quizlet.com/2731315/boy-scou...e-flash-cards/

The most famous is:

A Scout Is:
Trustworthy, Loyal,
Helpful, Friendly,
Courteous, Kind,
Obedient, Cheerful,
Thrifty, Brave,
Clean, and Reverent.


And I agree that many of the Boy Scouts programs might be of interest and benefit to girls so either start a girl centered program or take advantage of the available girls and coed groups. Bottom line unless you believe there is no use or room for same sex groups whether they be the Girl Scouts or Boy Scouts or Seton High School or Elder High school I don't see why the Boy Scouts should alter their basic structure.
Sounds like you should organize a boycott. Or start your own “boys only” group.
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  #107  
Old 10-12-17, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by cabezadecaballo View Post
It will change the social dynamic in many groups of young boys, obviously. Did someone else raise your kids for you, or are you just not that observant ? Seriously....

I'm not saying the change would be a bad thing, and in some situations I guess it could be better, but it will certainly be different in situations with girls.

Any troop or pack or coven or whatever they call themselves should have the option to remain all male, but I somehow doubt it will shake out that way.
Weak attempt at attacking my parenting homeschooler. Such a putz.
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  #108  
Old 10-12-17, 09:08 PM
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Originally Posted by cabezadecaballo View Post
Agreed. It always seemed that Scouts were for people who hadn't already figured out how to do what we just went out and did, or a few dads that led because they wanted to help provide those types of experiences to others. And an occasional oddball.
I noticed a lot of homeschoolers use scouts to socialize their weird kids. Is that your experience too?
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  #109  
Old 10-12-17, 10:03 PM
ronnie mund ronnie mund is offline
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Originally Posted by eastside_purple View Post
Sounds like you should organize a boycott. Or start your own “boys only” group.
lotr should go to a scout meeting and kneel for the national anthem.
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  #110  
Old 10-13-17, 04:56 AM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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Originally Posted by eastside_purple View Post
I noticed a lot of homeschoolers use scouts to socialize their weird kids. Is that your experience too?
We had no time for scouts.

My wife and kids met with other home school family groups at two libraries and a church each week, my sons are/were year-round athletes on many teams, we invited friends to our fishing camp, vacationed with friends, and were involved in church and community groups. By the time my kids attended public middle school, I'd guess they had more friends than many kids did.

So no, I have no personal experience with Scouting, but we've known many Scouts.

You really don't know your azzh0le from your elbow, e_p
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  #111  
Old 10-13-17, 04:58 AM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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Originally Posted by eastside_purple View Post
Weak attempt at attacking my parenting homeschooler. Such a putz.
Well, I was really attacking your lack of awareness. Thanks for confirming
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  #112  
Old 10-13-17, 05:54 AM
Purplemojo Purplemojo is offline
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Originally Posted by lotr10 View Post
Lord Powel may have emphasized military training preparedness in his creation of the Boy Scouts in the British Empire but the US version moved away from that model just a few years after the Boy Scouts were established in the States.....

And I agree that many of the Boy Scouts programs might be of interest and benefit to girls so either start a girl centered program or take advantage of the available girls and coed groups. Bottom line unless you believe there is no use or room for same sex groups whether they be the Girl Scouts or Boy Scouts or Seton High School or Elder High school I don't see why the Boy Scouts should alter their basic structure.
Yes it is true that Dan Beard and Ernest Seton had a different emphasis. I have Beard's "Boy's Handy Book" (1890) and I know his wife wrote one for girls which was radically different than his. I am not against single sex organizations. But, just as in sports, if there is no counterpart for girls, then girls should be allowed to participate in the predominantly boy's program. Like it or not, there is no counterpart for girls. There could have been. GSA had moved somewhat away from the homemaker model in the 60's and 70's and then went completely off the rails in the 80's and 90's.

Given that there is no comparable girl's program and given the general health of the BSA, there is no doubt in my mind that the recent move is for the best.
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  #113  
Old 10-13-17, 06:27 AM
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Originally Posted by cabezadecaballo View Post
We had no time for scouts.

My wife and kids met with other home school family groups at two libraries and a church each week, my sons are/were year-round athletes on many teams, we invited friends to our fishing camp, vacationed with friends, and were involved in church and community groups. By the time my kids attended public middle school, I'd guess they had more friends than many kids did.

So no, I have no personal experience with Scouting, but we've known many Scouts.

You really don't know your azzh0le from your elbow, e_p
Homeschooler denigrating scouts as odd. Hilarious.
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  #114  
Old 10-13-17, 06:43 AM
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Originally Posted by eastside_purple View Post
Homeschooler denigrating scouts as odd. Hilarious.
I'd call it more of an observation. Were you a scout ep? Homeschooling and scouts usually go hand in hand.
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  #115  
Old 10-13-17, 06:55 AM
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I'd call it more of an observation. Were you a scout ep? Homeschooling and scouts usually go hand in hand.
I wasn't a scout. My impression is they are mostly the straight-laced parents. Homeschoolers usually use Scouts as a social outlet, those kids are the true oddballs and weirdos. It's almost criminal what homeschool parents do to those kids as they barely have a chance at social normalcy without the soul crushing weirdness of inbred homeschooling.
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  #116  
Old 10-13-17, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by eastside_purple View Post
I wasn't a scout. My impression is they are mostly the straight-laced parents. Homeschoolers usually use Scouts as a social outlet, those kids are the true oddballs and weirdos. It's almost criminal what homeschool parents do to those kids as they barely have a chance at social normalcy without the soul crushing weirdness of inbred homeschooling.
lol, oh the irony. Offering up your views on social development while trolling.
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  #117  
Old 10-13-17, 07:39 AM
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Lol
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  #118  
Old 10-13-17, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by cabezadecaballo View Post
My wife and kids met with other home school family groups at two libraries and a church each week
Jesus. This is basically child abuse
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  #119  
Old 10-13-17, 08:04 AM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Originally Posted by Purplemojo View Post
Yes it is true that Dan Beard and Ernest Seton had a different emphasis. I have Beard's "Boy's Handy Book" (1890) and I know his wife wrote one for girls which was radically different than his. I am not against single sex organizations. But, just as in sports, if there is no counterpart for girls, then girls should be allowed to participate in the predominantly boy's program. Like it or not, there is no counterpart for girls. There could have been. GSA had moved somewhat away from the homemaker model in the 60's and 70's and then went completely off the rails in the 80's and 90's.

Given that there is no comparable girl's program and given the general health of the BSA, there is no doubt in my mind that the recent move is for the best.
Fair enough PM but at the risk of igniting another argument here I don't believe that girls should automatically be allowed to participate in all-boy groups just because there is no alternative group for them. I think it's the wrong idea in sports to. Sometimes life is unfair and the reason there are no alternative programs for girls is that the vast majority of girls are uninterested in participating in the activity.

All-boy & all-girl groups serve a very useful purpose in society and are a natural part of the maturation process as boys & girls grow into men & women. A friend of mine had a daughter who wanted to wrestle (she was a classic tom boy) but he steered her away because he didn't think it was fair to the boys. Instead he got her involved in karate where she excelled and loved it.

One final note that IMO is being dodged here: we as a society face an existential crisis with our boys & young men, particularly minority boys. By almost EVERY objective measure boys in our culture are doing poorly and it's getting worse. Why on earth would we seek to destabilize and tear down traditional male focused institutions/activities in pursuit of some misguided notion of gender equality? It makes no sense at a time when we should be doubling down on our efforts to reach out to and guide boys/young men to manhood.
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  #120  
Old 10-13-17, 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted by eastside_purple View Post
I wasn't a scout. My impression is they are mostly the straight-laced parents. Homeschoolers usually use Scouts as a social outlet, those kids are the true oddballs and weirdos. It's almost criminal what homeschool parents do to those kids as they barely have a chance at social normalcy without the soul crushing weirdness of inbred homeschooling.
You are an ignorant, nasty piece of work.
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