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  #151  
Old 02-13-18, 12:54 PM
Rob_Jennings Rob_Jennings is offline
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[QUOTE=CDVA;6986244] "...or any other form of rationalation..."

lol
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  #152  
Old 02-13-18, 12:59 PM
queencitybuckeye queencitybuckeye is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CDVA View Post
Snyder is the second best NCAA Heavyweight (197.1 lb - 285 lb) until proven otherwise.
Doesn't Snyder hold the head to head edge, or does only the last match mean anything?
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  #153  
Old 02-13-18, 01:14 PM
bdhof bdhof is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by queencitybuckeye View Post
Doesn't Snyder hold the head to head edge, or does only the last match mean anything?
The only other time they've wrestled was 2 years ago in the B10 finals. Snyder took Coon down 3 times and won 7-4 (4 escapes for Coon). For seeding, prior years don't count. Rankers typically will rely on previous years until current years supersede them as was the case here. Coon will rise to #1 in all polls this week and will be seeded #1 in the B10. The B10 champ will be seeded #1 in the NCAA. And I'm assuming here that no one else will beat Snyder or Coon, which is not a given. Coon will face Stoll in the B10 semis and beat him 3-2 in their dual this year. Snyder will face Nevills and has beaten him comfortably twice.
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  #154  
Old 02-13-18, 01:22 PM
queencitybuckeye queencitybuckeye is offline
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I stand corrected on the number of meetings. On the larger point, I'll maintain that there's a difference between "rankings" and "better". Coon has made the case for being rated higher at this point. Who is a better wrestler is a value judgement based on more than a single match.
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  #155  
Old 02-13-18, 01:29 PM
Big D 185 Big D 185 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OCEagle View Post
Not sure who you are saying is "crying" about the size difference. If Snyder is the best wrestler in the world in his weight class internationally - then why do you think Coon won? Did he outwrestle him? No. His 62 pound weight advantage was reason he won. He didn't take Snyder down because of his wiley wrestling skills, he overpowered him with his size. His weight is essentially 30% greater than Snyder's. Said a better way than before - think of Zain Retherford at 149 wrestling say, Myles Martin (24% advantage) or Kollin Moore (32% advantage). As good as Retherford is, it is not the wrestling skill that would see him likely be pinned, it is the size and strength difference. They may be in the same weight class - but when you get a guy that has that much size and is not hauling around a bunch of worthless bulk in the frame - he is going to have a tough time overcoming the size advantage.

It won't be any easier at B10 or NCAA championship. I was not that far from the mat and Snyder was absolutely gassed after trying to get that weight off him, trying to pick that weight up, and then have it land on him and trying again to get out from under it.

Snyder is very unique. This may be by far his toughest road to a championship. I'm sure he is looking forward to the rematch. That has to inspire him.
While I see your point on the weight difference (%). Usually the better HWT wins regardless. To that point, I'd take the best HS 220 over the best HS HWT 4 out of 5 times.
The 1984 NCAA Champ HWT was Tab Thacker of NC State. He was 447lbs. He beat Olympic alternate Mike Holcomb that year. However, he only won it once. A 3 time placer, he outweighed most of his opponents by 200.

I thought Coon would win based on how the match went last year. Coon wrestled very confident, not intimidated and outwrestled Snyder. I don't think he'll do it again. (Campbell even outwrestled Stencel once).

To the crying point, I can't stand when a 106 bumps to 113 or a 145 to 152 and they get the hero ribbon. Upper weights bump all the time and are expected to perform. I don't and have never bought into the weight advantage theory. Number 1 is speed, 2 is skill, 3 is strength, 4 is weight. Unfortunately for Snyder, Coon is close to even on 1 and has him on 3 and 4.
* 1 and 2 in my rankings could flip, however a super fast wrestler of lesser skill can beat a better wrestler to death on their feet.
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  #156  
Old 02-13-18, 01:32 PM
CDVA CDVA is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by queencitybuckeye View Post
Doesn't Snyder hold the head to head edge, or does only the last match mean anything?
Two years ago Snyder was the best. Coon was third, lost to Gwiz and pinned Waltz in the consi finals.
Not sure how much results from two years ago have relevance to this year? I never implied that Coon is/was the best ever. Just the best right now. Snyder might figure out how to beat Coon at B1Gs or NCAAs but for now..... Snyder is #2

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  #157  
Old 02-13-18, 02:11 PM
TakedownFor2 TakedownFor2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CDVA View Post
Lol, watch the match.
Tossed Snyder to his back.
57 seconds of riding time
Clock saved Snyder at the end of the second period
Coon gave Snyder a courtesy pass with 10 seconds left in the third by not finishing the single.
Yeah it was dominant. Plain and simple.

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I was at the match my man. Saw it first hand.

Snyder was not dominated. Coon was definitely better that night.
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  #158  
Old 02-13-18, 02:23 PM
OCEagle OCEagle is offline
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Originally Posted by TakedownFor2 View Post
I was at the match my man. Saw it first hand.

Snyder was not dominated. Coon was definitely better that night.
I was there as well and agree with your assessment. Of the 8,000 in the arena, I would say 8,000 figured Snyder was going to come back and get a take down and force overtime - until his last shot was thwarted with about 7 seconds left. It was a classic Snyder comeback that didn't quite happen. You could hear the UM fans groan when Snyder got an escape and cut the riding time off at :53 - so no point for Coon that would have been a huge advantage for him. I believe everyone figured Snyder would get the takedown, and then it was a question of whether he did it too soon and gave Coon enough time to escape.

Just didn't work out that way.
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  #159  
Old 02-13-18, 02:31 PM
CDVA CDVA is offline
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  #160  
Old 02-13-18, 02:42 PM
kessen157 kessen157 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CDVA View Post
Lol, watch the match.
Tossed Snyder to his back.
57 seconds of riding time
Clock saved Snyder at the end of the second period
Coon gave Snyder a courtesy pass with 10 seconds left in the third by not finishing the single.
Yeah it was dominant. Plain and simple.

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Dominated him like Myles dominated Abounader
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  #161  
Old 02-13-18, 02:45 PM
CDVA CDVA is offline
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Any thoughts about how flat Micah was?

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  #162  
Old 02-13-18, 02:50 PM
jmog jmog is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CDVA View Post
Any thoughts about how flat Micah was?

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I will have to go back frame by frame, but watching live almost the whole time the Michigan wrestler had his own arm and shoulder stuck under one of Micah's shoulders.

Hard to be flat when the offensive wrestler is under your shoulder.
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  #163  
Old 02-13-18, 02:54 PM
CDVA CDVA is offline
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Originally Posted by jmog View Post
I will have to go back frame by frame, but watching live almost the whole time the Michigan wrestler had his own arm and shoulder stuck under one of Micah's shoulders.

Hard to be flat when the offensive wrestler is under your shoulder.
Look at the first 5 seconds of the cradle. The last 40+ seconds Micah was star gazing it's clear Pantaleo's arm is preventing the pin.

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  #164  
Old 02-13-18, 02:56 PM
OCEagle OCEagle is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big D 185 View Post
While I see your point on the weight difference (%). Usually the better HWT wins regardless. To that point, I'd take the best HS 220 over the best HS HWT 4 out of 5 times.
The 1984 NCAA Champ HWT was Tab Thacker of NC State. He was 447lbs. He beat Olympic alternate Mike Holcomb that year. However, he only won it once. A 3 time placer, he outweighed most of his opponents by 200.

I thought Coon would win based on how the match went last year. Coon wrestled very confident, not intimidated and outwrestled Snyder. I don't think he'll do it again. (Campbell even outwrestled Stencel once).

To the crying point, I can't stand when a 106 bumps to 113 or a 145 to 152 and they get the hero ribbon. Upper weights bump all the time and are expected to perform. I don't and have never bought into the weight advantage theory. Number 1 is speed, 2 is skill, 3 is strength, 4 is weight. Unfortunately for Snyder, Coon is close to even on 1 and has him on 3 and 4.
* 1 and 2 in my rankings could flip, however a super fast wrestler of lesser skill can beat a better wrestler to death on their feet.

A couple of points - hevywgts in high school vs. hvywghts in college is not the same comparison. All those good 220's have to be heavyweights in college - along with most of the 195'lbers. Coon has been a heavyweight since he was around 5 years old. He is 6'6" and cuts weight to get to 285. He was ranked #1 as a true freshman. He has wrestled internationally in Greco Roman.

He has size and strength and wrestling knowledge. He is not some overweight kid that came out of high school by winning with his extra weight.

I don't understand the comparison back in 1984 with a guy that was 447lbs. Coon is not carrying around more than 150lbs of fat like I'm sure that guy was at nearly 450lbs. Weight advantage means less in the heavyweight division than any other division - but, because it can be as much as an 80lb difference, you have to be extremely good to overcome that weight disadvantage - assuming you are not wrestling somebody that is just bulking up to be harder to move around. Coon was not even breathing that hard - which is understandable since he was usually draped over the top of Snyder.

I look at it the same way as the strength vs. skill issue. A strong guy who doesn't know how to wrestle, will get taken apart by a skilled and experience wrestler (assume they are in same weight class). But if both are equally skilled, I'll take the stronger guy every time.

I'm not saying Coon is as skilled as Snyder - but the pure size advantage makes up for that difference in skills. Hence - the reason why I said Coon won because of his size advantage. Otherwise, why did he win? Is he a better wrestler than Snyder?

And BTW - Coon redshirted last year so he did not wrestle Snyder. Coon also took that redshirt year to build up his upper body strength. So any comparisons to what happened 2 years ago in a match is not worth getting into.

The fact the NCAA has not established a 225 or 230lb weight class is just ridiculous. I can't imagine how many excellent wrestlers never wrestled in college because their natural wrestling weight was around that level - but instead tried to bulk up to wrestle guys that haven't seen 230 since they turned 15.
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  #165  
Old 02-13-18, 03:10 PM
OCEagle OCEagle is offline
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Originally Posted by ProV1 View Post
There is a lot to unpack in this thread but a few themes are clear. First, for some reason, even experienced wrestling people either don’t understand or don’t appreciate the wresting at heavyweight. Coon was stalling because he did not take a shot? How often does Coon or any other full heavyweight shoot singles? The answer is rarely because it does not often work and is a lousy attack at that weight. It seems to me that his takedown of Snyder came on a body lock. That is what he does and typical of how he wrestles all the time. If he was stalling vs Snyder, then he stalls in every match all of the time. Second, the size difference is not an excuse or complaint for why Snyder lost. It is a primary reason, and you don’t have to be a wrestling savant to see that. It is not to say that Coon won just because of size. Coon won because he is much bigger and he is skilled enough at wrestling to make it extremely difficult for a guy of Snyder’s size to beat him. We all know that Snyder wrestles at 285 because of his international schedule. If NCAA was the pinnacle, he would be at 197 because he is 5’11’. For some reason, folks want to dismiss size as a major impact on results at heavyweight. At the same time, I see comments about how we need 7lbs between classes to keep things fair and what kind of advantage a certain wrestler has because he cut and is “huge” for the weight. I wonder if these same folks would dismiss the results if Myles Martin beat the crap out of Zane Retherford. Again, this is not a question of fairness or excuse. It is simply reality. It will be interesting to see if Snyder can overcome it. If it can be done, he is the guy that can do it and it will only add to his incredible resume.
I should have read your post before making another one. I think you and I are on the exact page and I can't understand why the points are not making sense to others. They tend to go off on a tangent and make reference to the fact that Snyder is therefore not the best heavyweight in college. The answer is yes - that may be exactly the point. He can likely beat Coon, but it sure will not be easy - and the reason is only because of size.
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  #166  
Old 02-13-18, 03:41 PM
Lambeau Fields Lambeau Fields is offline
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Originally Posted by Big D 185 View Post
To that point, I'd take the best HS 220 over the best HS HWT 4 out of 5 times.
.
220's themselves vehemently disagree with you and prove so through their own actions. Any of them weighing more than 215 (which is nearly all of them can enter the HWT division. How many of them do so come post season? *anyone* *crickets* *buehler* *crickets* *buehler* *voo-doo economics*
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  #167  
Old 02-13-18, 06:03 PM
Huge Huge is offline
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Anyone have any data on how many college heavyweights weigh more than 250?
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  #168  
Old 02-13-18, 06:45 PM
ProV1 ProV1 is offline
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Originally Posted by CDVA View Post
The reason Snyder lost is because he was the second best guy on the mat in the weight class that both wrestlers weighed in at. Your comparison of Martin and Zain is just stupid because they don't wrestle in the same weight class. Snyder is the second best NCAA Heavyweight (197.1 lb - 285 lb) until proven otherwise. Own it. Stop whining, making excuses, citing reasons or any other form of rationalation that helps the fragile ego of the Buckeye fan sleep at night. Snyder lost and he was soundly beaten.

The match is online if there are any doubts about how much Coon dominated.

Also Micah was stuck, flat, decked. The ref was out of position and missed the earliest part of the cradle when Jordan's shoulders were pasted to the mat.

If the ref was in position Michigan wins the dual. Enjoy the gifted victory.

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The fact that Martin and Zain are not in the same weight class is irrelevant to the point being made. The point is that size is a major impact in the outcome of a wrestling contest between two human beings. That is why weight classes were established. You do realize that we have weight classes, right? You do realize that the purpose is to lesson the impact of size on the outcome, right? You also must realize that with an 88lb spread at the 285lb class means size can be a major impact on outcome that is not present in the other 9 classes, right? Also, please note that I never said that Coon was not the best 285 lber in the NCAA. I actually think he is. I think this because the size advantage is too much for Snyder to overcome given Coon's solid skill level. Maybe Snyder will prove me wrong next month. As I said, if anybody can do it, it is he.
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  #169  
Old 02-13-18, 10:07 PM
Big D 185 Big D 185 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lambeau Fields View Post
220's themselves vehemently disagree with you and prove so through their own actions. Any of them weighing more than 215 (which is nearly all of them can enter the HWT division. How many of them do so come post season? *anyone* *crickets* *buehler* *crickets* *buehler* *voo-doo economics*
Or some 220’s are doing what’s best for the team.
I was at Moeller for a long time. There has been only one hwt in the last 15 years that could beat the 220 or 215 (Becker). Frueauf, Meyer, Quehl (x2) all were better than their hwt. That’s 4 out of 5. I’ll bet that’s the norm. Shafor beat O’Malley in 2016 eds. Vs graham.
My younger sons sophomore year he lost to Frueauf in wrestle-offs and bumped to hwt. He had to drink water to make weight. He won the GCL and sectionals. He lost to Alten (state champ) and then Morris from mason in OT for his go to match at districts.
There are some facts. What 220 is “vehemently” disagreeing?
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  #170  
Old 02-13-18, 10:18 PM
Mr.wrsln2 Mr.wrsln2 is offline
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This is starting to get comical.best explanations...longest explanations for an individual loss maybe ever.
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  #171  
Old 02-13-18, 10:28 PM
ProV1 ProV1 is offline
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Originally Posted by Mr.wrsln2 View Post
This is starting to get comical.best explanations...longest explanations for an individual loss maybe ever.
Here is what is really funny. Size is a physical attribute just like speed, quickness, balance, coordination, and flexibility. If somebody said Coon won because he utilized his superior quickness, others may disagree but they would not fly off the handle about excuses and complaints. They would also not try to assert that quickness is not a differentiator in wrestling. You throw size out there and yappi explodes. Kinda weird.
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  #172  
Old 02-14-18, 09:23 AM
Big D 185 Big D 185 is offline
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Originally Posted by ProV1 View Post
. You throw size out there and yappi explodes. Kinda weird.
Most men get worked up when you throw out the size vs performance conversation!!!
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  #173  
Old 02-14-18, 09:57 AM
Tartan78 Tartan78 is offline
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Originally Posted by Big D 185 View Post
Most men get worked up when you throw out the size vs performance conversation!!!






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  #174  
Old 02-14-18, 10:09 AM
OCEagle OCEagle is offline
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Originally Posted by Big D 185 View Post
Most men get worked up when you throw out the size vs performance conversation!!!
Now that is funny....especially coming from a guy (assume it is a guy) who uses a screen name of Big D. I finally understand the argument of why so many are saying size doesn't matter. I hope you remembered to drop the mike after posting that....lol

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  #175  
Old 02-14-18, 10:24 AM
Huge Huge is offline
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Even if you are big and talented, it's better to be handsome and charming or you will be using your skills all by yourself.

Boom!
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  #176  
Old 02-14-18, 11:35 AM
ProV1 ProV1 is offline
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Originally Posted by CDVA View Post
The reason Snyder lost is because he was the second best guy on the mat in the weight class that both wrestlers weighed in at. Your comparison of Martin and Zain is just stupid because they don't wrestle in the same weight class. Snyder is the second best NCAA Heavyweight (197.1 lb - 285 lb) until proven otherwise. Own it. Stop whining, making excuses, citing reasons or any other form of rationalation that helps the fragile ego of the Buckeye fan sleep at night. Snyder lost and he was soundly beaten.

The match is online if there are any doubts about how much Coon dominated.

Also Micah was stuck, flat, decked. The ref was out of position and missed the earliest part of the cradle when Jordan's shoulders were pasted to the mat.

If the ref was in position Michigan wins the dual. Enjoy the gifted victory.

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Originally Posted by Big D 185 View Post
Most men get worked up when you throw out the size vs performance conversation!!!
You can always tell who the insecure posters are.
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  #177  
Old 02-14-18, 12:31 PM
CDVA CDVA is offline
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Originally Posted by ProV1 View Post
You can always tell who the insecure posters are.
Maybe

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  #178  
Old 02-14-18, 01:30 PM
ProV1 ProV1 is offline
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Originally Posted by CDVA View Post
The reason Snyder lost is because he was the second best guy on the mat in the weight class that both wrestlers weighed in at. Your comparison of Martin and Zain is just stupid because they don't wrestle in the same weight class. Snyder is the second best NCAA Heavyweight (197.1 lb - 285 lb) until proven otherwise. Own it. Stop whining, making excuses, citing reasons or any other form of rationalation that helps the fragile ego of the Buckeye fan sleep at night. Snyder lost and he was soundly beaten.

The match is online if there are any doubts about how much Coon dominated.

Also Micah was stuck, flat, decked. The ref was out of position and missed the earliest part of the cradle when Jordan's shoulders were pasted to the mat.

If the ref was in position Michigan wins the dual. Enjoy the gifted victory.

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Originally Posted by CDVA View Post
Maybe

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#sizematters
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  #179  
Old 02-14-18, 02:04 PM
PIQUA_Bolin PIQUA_Bolin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CDVA View Post
Any thoughts about how flat Micah was?

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I canít comment there. Too many bad memories. My 3rd match ever in Jr. High I had a cradle locked up and exactly the same way had my arm and shoulder under them preventing a pin. My amazing coach said it was the worst form he had ever seen and made me run after the meet. Lol
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  #180  
Old 02-14-18, 03:25 PM
Cramer Cramer is offline
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Originally Posted by CDVA View Post
Maybe

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Even your own screenshot "proving" he's flat shows the shoulder was up.

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