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  #181  
Old 02-02-16, 12:16 PM
eyes r burning eyes r burning is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suplexer130 View Post
I'd argue I can apply the same amount of pressure with my feet bent as I can with them straight and touching. Only when I cross them can I exert more pressure.
So it all depends on how much pressure then? Like a front headlock that comes across the neck or the turk and claw that can sometimes go across the neck?

If that's the case, then I understand the crossing the feet.

Last edited by eyes r burning; 02-02-16 at 12:35 PM.
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  #182  
Old 02-02-16, 12:42 PM
TechFall34 TechFall34 is offline
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I hope this type of question helps you all understand how difficult making "some" calls are and can be. We are asked to make these type of calls in a second with NO time to think about the what ifs. And determine is the amount of pressure to much or seem to be ok... My judgement may be far different than another Ref's opinion...thus causing controversy at the time. The second I stop a match and award a penalty point for the "head scissors" and then they end up in a Dixon type situation, the coaches are gonna want that same call... The whole "amount of pressure" used is a judgement problem... Similar the B-ball officials, some "let them play" and others don't - As a wrestling official I'm okay with it being physical so my judgement is going to be different than another guys.
It'd be great if it were simply black and white but there are SO many situations that occurs that I don't know that enough rules can be written to cover it all.
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  #183  
Old 02-02-16, 12:46 PM
wjjsj wjjsj is offline
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I don't have a slam on the video. Feet touching are not a scissors to me. I'm doing a lot talking when that situation occurs "Keep it legal".
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  #184  
Old 02-02-16, 01:24 PM
eyes r burning eyes r burning is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TechFall34 View Post
I hope this type of question helps you all understand how difficult making "some" calls are and can be. We are asked to make these type of calls in a second with NO time to think about the what ifs. And determine is the amount of pressure to much or seem to be ok... My judgement may be far different than another Ref's opinion...thus causing controversy at the time. The second I stop a match and award a penalty point for the "head scissors" and then they end up in a Dixon type situation, the coaches are gonna want that same call... The whole "amount of pressure" used is a judgement problem... Similar the B-ball officials, some "let them play" and others don't - As a wrestling official I'm okay with it being physical so my judgement is going to be different than another guys.
It'd be great if it were simply black and white but there are SO many situations that occurs that I don't know that enough rules can be written to cover it all.
Trust me. I get it, you have a tough job, you don't have to make me aware of this with everyone of your posts.

The issue with the original question is that there isn't a clear answer. That's why I asked 350zjk if his answer came from an interpreter or not. They are the ones that help with the interpretation of rules not necessarily covered by the rule book. He says overlapping is required. Where did that come from? The overlapping isn't in the rule book or this wouldn't even be a question. I don't have a big issue with that being the protocol, but I would like to know if that is an official interpretation, because my next thought would be that body scissors shouldn't be illegal unless the legs are crossed as well. I've seen it stopped for PD and as illegal without crossing.

BTW, what in the heck is a Dixon situation? Is that a regional term? I've never heard that before and have no clue what you are talking about.
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  #185  
Old 02-02-16, 01:27 PM
Suplexer130 Suplexer130 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eyes r burning View Post
Trust me. I get it, you have a tough job, you don't have to make me aware of this with everyone of your posts.

The issue with the original question is that there isn't a clear answer. That's why I asked 350zjk if his answer came from an interpreter or not. They are the ones that help with the interpretation of rules not necessarily covered by the rule book. He says overlapping is required. Where did that come from? The overlapping isn't in the rule book or this wouldn't even be a question. I don't have a big issue with that being the protocol, but I would like to know if that is an official interpretation, because my next thought would be that body scissors shouldn't be illegal unless the legs are crossed as well. I've seen it stopped for PD and as illegal without crossing.

BTW, what in the heck is a Dixon situation? Is that a regional term? I've never heard that before and have no clue what you are talking about.
Body scissors are legal as long as you aren't "punishing" your opponent with them. A figure four however is illegal.
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  #186  
Old 02-02-16, 01:39 PM
eyes r burning eyes r burning is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suplexer130 View Post
Body scissors are legal as long as you aren't "punishing" your opponent with them. A figure four however is illegal.
Then how is this any different than a head scissors? Crossed or not, I can punish the opponent.

So I'm correct in saying that a scissor on the head (or body) isn't defined as a crossing of the legs, rather the amount of pressure exerted on the body part by way of the legs squeezing together in any fashion?

Wrestler A shoots, gets his head between the legs of B and lifts. Wrestler A's head is between the thighs of B. Wrestler B squeezes A's head with his thighs, with or without the legs crossing.

Wrestler B could potentially be called for an illegal head scissors penalty if in the judgement of the official it was a punishing move?! Is that the correct way to interpret that rule? Am I way off base and making a mistake that assuming a head scissor and body scissor are the same maneuver and am failing to see why they are called differently?
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  #187  
Old 02-02-16, 01:51 PM
Suplexer130 Suplexer130 is online now
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A leg scissor where the legs don't cross, would by definition not be a scissor.

Any move used to punish your opponent is actually illegal. What defines that is up to the official. A good example of this is a spladle, while the move is legal if you start trying to inflict pain with it you can be penalized for it.

Diving further down the rabbit hole, a draping scissor is legal in the neutral position as long as pressure isn't applied. So while it is illegal in the straight leg scenario it is legal in the draping scenario as long as pressure (or too much pressure depending on interp) isn't applied. A lot comes down to perceived distress or pain being applied to the other wrestler when it comes to some of these holds.
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  #188  
Old 02-02-16, 01:56 PM
eyes r burning eyes r burning is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suplexer130 View Post
A leg scissor where the legs don't cross, would by definition not be a scissor.

Any move used to punish your opponent is actually illegal. What defines that is up to the official. A good example of this is a spladle, while the move is legal if you start trying to inflict pain with it you can be penalized for it.

Diving further down the rabbit hole, a draping scissor is legal in the neutral position as long as pressure isn't applied. So while it is illegal in the straight leg scenario it is legal in the draping scenario as long as pressure (or too much pressure depending on interp) isn't applied. A lot comes down to perceived distress or pain being applied to the other wrestler when it comes to some of these holds.
Ok. I fully understand the interpretation. Cross=Scissor.
If stopped and point awarded without crossing on the head, should it be called a roughness penalty, not illegal maneuver?
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  #189  
Old 02-02-16, 02:29 PM
Suplexer130 Suplexer130 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eyes r burning View Post
Ok. I fully understand the interpretation. Cross=Scissor.
If stopped and point awarded without crossing on the head, should it be called a roughness penalty, not illegal maneuver?
I have never seen it stopped without the legs crossing around the head.
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  #190  
Old 02-02-16, 02:59 PM
eyes r burning eyes r burning is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suplexer130 View Post
I have never seen it stopped without the legs crossing around the head.
Saw one a couple weeks ago. Kid tried to dump the opponent. They both came down on their sides. Kid straight leg squeezed (I didn't see any crossing and judging by the table conference neither did the coach) and an illegal maneuver was called.

Now you see why my line of questioning went the way it did.
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  #191  
Old 02-02-16, 03:01 PM
350zjk 350zjk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eyes r burning View Post
Trust me. I get it, you have a tough job, you don't have to make me aware of this with everyone of your posts.

The issue with the original question is that there isn't a clear answer. That's why I asked 350zjk if his answer came from an interpreter or not. They are the ones that help with the interpretation of rules not necessarily covered by the rule book. He says overlapping is required. Where did that come from? The overlapping isn't in the rule book or this wouldn't even be a question. I don't have a big issue with that being the protocol, but I would like to know if that is an official interpretation, because my next thought would be that body scissors shouldn't be illegal unless the legs are crossed as well. I've seen it stopped for PD and as illegal without crossing.

BTW, what in the heck is a Dixon situation? Is that a regional term? I've never heard that before and have no clue what you are talking about.
Scissors by their nature MUST OVERLAP to be able to cut. Maybe that's why overlap is not found in the book, I don't know. The amount of pressure is not the issue. Take a moment and examine when a full nelson is "called". Again degree of pressure is not the issue. A lot of good points are being made concerning "illegal pressure". But unlike a head scissor or full nelson, which are illegal moves, pressure deemed to be illegal now becomes unnecessary roughness or even a U.S. call.
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  #192  
Old 02-02-16, 03:16 PM
eyes r burning eyes r burning is offline
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I always assumed that a scissor had to be crossed to be called. Like you said, by nature a scissor's blades cross each other.

It was really funny that the other official asked this question and didn't have an answer, but a few weeks ago I saw it called without a cross.

At that time I assumed that the offical was wrong, or that there was an interpretation that it didn't have to cross because of the area of pressure. Hence my questioning and confusion.
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  #193  
Old 02-02-16, 03:52 PM
Lambeau Fields Lambeau Fields is offline
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NFHS 2015-16 point of emphasis:

THE BODY SCISSORS
The Body Scissors has been a part of wrestling for decades. Although the maneuver is a legal hold in wrestling, referees should be very vigilant of it when applied. If the offensive wrestler is utilizing the body scissors to improve his/her position or to secure a fall, the maneuver is being properly executed. However, if the body scissors is applied solely to inflict pain, the referee must be prepared to break the hold immediately and penalize the offender for an illegal action, according
to Rule 7-1-5u.
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  #194  
Old 02-02-16, 04:47 PM
TechFall34 TechFall34 is offline
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Eyes r burning; I'm only stating that the job of a wrestling official is not cut and dry, ppl get on here all the time and bash official after official because they made a bad call..the same official probably called the other 50 matches just fine BUT that one call makes him horrible, suck, ect. If it offends you that I'm trying to educate fans AND myself then too bad, don't respond then.
Dixon: when wrestler A shoots in a gets deep on a double leg with his head is between the other wrestlers thighs, wrestler B is now over top of wrestler A, Wrestler A then sits up with wrestler B hanging behind him and wrestler B's thighs on each side of his head...Wrestler B usually grabs the ankles of A. Wrestler A performs a "Dixon" to get one leg over his head to put B on his side to secure a take down... Hope that makes sense. I'm sure it's called many other things...
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  #195  
Old 02-03-16, 06:17 AM
bblake12 bblake12 is offline
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Locking Hands Question

Let's see if I explain this correctly -
From the referees position, at the whistle the bottom man starts standing and heading to OB.
The top man has him around the waist, hand over opposite wrist. As the bottom man heads out the top man slips to holding ankles still with hand over opposite wrist.
Referee calls Technical - Locking Hands

Not sure I understand the rules here, it sounds like you can only hold with one arm in that situation.

Any insight would be helpful
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  #196  
Old 02-03-16, 06:39 AM
TechFall34 TechFall34 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bblake12 View Post
Let's see if I explain this correctly -
From the referees position, at the whistle the bottom man starts standing and heading to OB.
The top man has him around the waist, hand over opposite wrist. As the bottom man heads out the top man slips to holding ankles still with hand over opposite wrist.
Referee calls Technical - Locking Hands

Not sure I understand the rules here, it sounds like you can only hold with one arm in that situation.

Any insight would be helpful
It is illegal to lock hands around both both ankles... There is actually a picture of the violation in the rules book.
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  #197  
Old 02-03-16, 07:42 AM
bblake12 bblake12 is offline
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Locking Hands Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by TechFall34 View Post
It is illegal to lock hands around both both ankles... There is actually a picture of the violation in the rules book.
Thanks for the quick reply -
Since I am not a ref and don't have a rule book, I can't see what you are referencing. I thought that locking hands is grasping two hands together which I understand. The distinction is hand over wrist which is legal? when doing a return to the mat but apparently not when preventing someone from going OB. So what is the legal hand position to hold someone around the ankles in bounds ?

Thanks,
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  #198  
Old 02-03-16, 07:50 AM
Jim Behrens Jim Behrens is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bblake12 View Post
Let's see if I explain this correctly -
From the referees position, at the whistle the bottom man starts standing and heading to OB.
The top man has him around the waist, hand over opposite wrist. As the bottom man heads out the top man slips to holding ankles still with hand over opposite wrist.
Referee calls Technical - Locking Hands

Not sure I understand the rules here, it sounds like you can only hold with one arm in that situation.

Any insight would be helpful
Maybe I am being dense but I am having trouble picturing a lot of this from your description.
First, how was the offensive man able to hold onto a wrist while locking his hands around the opponents ankles?
What position was the defensive man in when this occurred?
Was he on his feet or on the mat?
If they were on the mat, was reaction time accounted for?
Additionally, from your description, it sounds like a case for fleeing the mat could be made.
Not saying the call made on the mat was right or wrong, just trying to understand what you wrote.
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  #199  
Old 02-03-16, 08:06 AM
bblake12 bblake12 is offline
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Locking Hands Question

Thanks for all the replies -

Maybe my title is incorrect, the top man was not locking hands in the sense that he had two hands grasped together around the ankles.

He had arms around the ankles but the hands were hand over wrist which normally shouldn't be "locking hands". However he got called for locking hands and lost a point. He was told it was because you can't hold someone with two arms around the ankles to prevent them from going OB. Very confusing to the wrestler.

1. The defensive man (bottom man) was standing but heading OB
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  #200  
Old 02-03-16, 08:19 AM
Suplexer130 Suplexer130 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bblake12 View Post
Thanks for all the replies -

Maybe my title is incorrect, the top man was not locking hands in the sense that he had two hands grasped together around the ankles.

He had arms around the ankles but the hands were hand over wrist which normally shouldn't be "locking hands". However he got called for locking hands and lost a point. He was told it was because you can't hold someone with two arms around the ankles to prevent them from going OB. Very confusing to the wrestler.

1. The defensive man (bottom man) was standing but heading OB
You can't lock hands, arms, or any combination of the two. In the example of a mat return it is illegal if he doesn't let go when they hit the mat (Allowance for reaction time though).
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  #201  
Old 02-03-16, 09:14 AM
Jim Behrens Jim Behrens is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bblake12 View Post
Thanks for all the replies -

Maybe my title is incorrect, the top man was not locking hands in the sense that he had two hands grasped together around the ankles.

He had arms around the ankles but the hands were hand over wrist which normally shouldn't be "locking hands". However he got called for locking hands and lost a point. He was told it was because you can't hold someone with two arms around the ankles to prevent them from going OB. Very confusing to the wrestler.

1. The defensive man (bottom man) was standing but heading OB
Rule 7-3-3 addresses this and says (in part) that if the defensive wrestlers weight is supported entirely on his feet, or if the offensive wrestler has lifted the defensive wrestler off the mat, there is no overlapping or clasping call to be made.
When the defensive wrestler is brought back to the mat, reaction time is allowed for the offensive wrestler to change his grip or hold.
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  #202  
Old 02-03-16, 09:18 AM
bblake12 bblake12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Behrens View Post
Rule 7-3-3 addresses this and says (in part) that if the defensive wrestlers weight is supported entirely on his feet, or if the offensive wrestler has lifted the defensive wrestler off the mat, there is no overlapping or clasping call to be made.
When the defensive wrestler is brought back to the mat, reaction time is allowed for the offensive wrestler to change his grip or hold.
Thanks for all the replies, I think I understand it now.
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  #203  
Old 02-03-16, 02:00 PM
TechFall34 TechFall34 is offline
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You had asked, how is your wrestler supposed to keep ahold of the other wrestler in this situation... One hand/arm on each leg or ankle.
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  #204  
Old 02-06-16, 06:59 AM
pburg pburg is offline
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armless head and arm question

I have seen a greater effort this season by refs at the MS level to call a technical violation against wrestlers who hit a head and arm but slip the arm and stay on the head. How then do they still allow for a bottom wrestler to latch on to the head when top man hangs his head over? Strikes me as the same technical violation. Need help understanding how one is okay over the other.
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  #205  
Old 02-06-16, 08:34 AM
TechFall34 TechFall34 is offline
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An illegal headlock is illegal from the top or the bottom.
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  #206  
Old 02-11-16, 04:37 PM
jmog jmog is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pburg View Post
I have seen a greater effort this season by refs at the MS level to call a technical violation against wrestlers who hit a head and arm but slip the arm and stay on the head. How then do they still allow for a bottom wrestler to latch on to the head when top man hangs his head over? Strikes me as the same technical violation. Need help understanding how one is okay over the other.
After a head and arm, if the bottom man pulls him other with a head lock the bottom man must also have an arm inside the head lock (same criteria as top man).

I have seen many times where the bottom man ends up more around the neck with only one arm and not "locked", that wouldn't be a violation.

However, bottom man should really be locking around the body and pulling over depending on position/momentum of top man.

Side note, I am not a referee, just believe I understand this rule . If I am wrong please someone let me know.
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  #207  
Old 02-11-16, 05:45 PM
dion dion is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pburg View Post
I have seen a greater effort this season by refs at the MS level to call a technical violation against wrestlers who hit a head and arm but slip the arm and stay on the head. How then do they still allow for a bottom wrestler to latch on to the head when top man hangs his head over? Strikes me as the same technical violation. Need help understanding how one is okay over the other.
Reaching both arms up and encircling the head with both hands to pull the top wrestler over the head of the bottom wrestler is not an illegal headlock. A t.v. and an illegal hold are completely different animals.
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  #208  
Old 02-23-16, 11:14 AM
huntths huntths is offline
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Wrestler A has a cradle locked up while wrestler B is on hands and feet in bear crawl position. Wrestler B feet are out of bounds and hands are in bounds. What needs to occur for this to be a takedown?
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  #209  
Old 02-23-16, 01:21 PM
Wrestling 1 Wrestling 1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huntths View Post
Wrestler A has a cradle locked up while wrestler B is on hands and feet in bear crawl position. Wrestler B feet are out of bounds and hands are in bounds. What needs to occur for this to be a takedown?
Expose the back for a 1 count to establish control
or
put him to a hip
or
come around behind and hook a leg.

I think that about covers the various ways to score with a cradle.
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  #210  
Old 02-23-16, 03:06 PM
dion dion is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrestling 1 View Post
Expose the back for a 1 count to establish control
or
put him to a hip
or
come around behind and hook a leg.

I think that about covers the various ways to score with a cradle.
Well Done!
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