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  #151  
Old 01-24-16, 01:34 PM
350zjk 350zjk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikedyer View Post
My kid was in the finals. Blood time for the other kid. He walks over and sits down on the floor in front of the table, official walks by him and to the table to make sure blood time is started, assistant ref is looking on the mat and on my kid for blood, coach comes over and hands his wrestler his puffer, then goes to get a paper towel, nose plug, etc. The kid sat there pulling on his inhaler for a minute maybe, then they took care of the blood, them he was ready to go.

WTF???
Smart move by the coach! Blood time supersedes injury time so technically no injury time used. However, the moment blood time is cut the official should begin injury time unless the inhaler use has deceased.
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  #152  
Old 01-24-16, 04:07 PM
mikedyer mikedyer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TechFall34 View Post
This is a good scenario that needs clarification.... I will send this question to Columbus for a clarification. As a Ref, I know that Blood time supersedes all other time. I guess what I'd purpose to you is, coaches give kids water and talk to their wrestler while the blood time runs for the opponent all the time...
I'm an official as well.

I would also like to add that my kid won the match. This isn't sour grapes.

The problem I had with it was the order it all happened in. The blood was the reason the match was stopped and the officials should have saw to it that the blood was being taken care of instead of hanging out at the table. He signaled to start blood time and that should have covered it. You don't award a takedown and then hit the table to make sure they wrote it on the right line.

I posted earlier from memory, I watched the video and this is actually what happened. The coach walked across the mat to his wrestler, the kid motioned that he wanted the inhaler. The coach went and got it, took it to him along with a rag of some sort, then went and got stuff to take care of the blood. He was sitting on the edge of the mat with his back to everyone and neither of the officials actually made their way to where the kid was and looked at him so neither of them had any idea that he had an inhaler in his hand. When the official finally made his way over there he looks at the kid, who has the inhaler in his mouth, signals to the table to stop blood time and walks back out to the middle of the mat and leaves the kid sitting there with his inhaler.

Around 45 seconds goes by before he gets up and goes back to the middle of the mat. He makes some adjustments to his head gear, which he never took off, and its damned near a full minute before he says he's ready to go again.

If I can find out which association these two belong to I will send the video to the person who runs it. It will be something fun for them to watch at their next meeting.

At the very least it's unethical on the part of the coach and the referee let control of the match slip away a little bit in my not so humble opinion. It really shouldn't have been allowed to happen.
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  #153  
Old 01-24-16, 04:59 PM
TechFall34 TechFall34 is offline
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Sounds like he "missed" the inhaler...or at least the call for injury time. I can see how he could, he was probably looking to see if the blood was done thus starting clean up time.. As you know, this ref missed the correct call to start injury time... And, give the coach props...pretty smart...BUT I even bet he didn't "knowingly" do it on purpose...
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  #154  
Old 01-25-16, 11:51 AM
93 red ls 93 red ls is offline
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Question for a ref/refs in general....
Had a match over the weekend where I felt there were back points that were not given properly to my wrestler that earned/deserved them.

So I head to the scores table ,ask the ref where the rest of our back points were ? Ref tells me my wrestler did not meet the critia for back points. I then asked the ref what was the critia I needed to meet in order to get the back points I felt we earned. I was told to go back to the chair and never given an explanation of the "critia" my kid needed to meet...

As a ref will you give a "detailed" explanation if you tell a coach their wrestler didn't "meet the criteria" for something.
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  #155  
Old 01-25-16, 12:08 PM
CoachJules CoachJules is offline
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Can an official please explain to me how in the video below, it is NOT an illegal slam? This happened this past weekend and the official did not warn the kid to bring the opponent back safely nor did he stop the match after the slam (my filmer just stopped recording for some reason) and my kid ended up getting pinned while he was dazed and had the wind knocked out of him (luckily that was the only injury)

Ouch
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  #156  
Old 01-25-16, 01:33 PM
Jim Behrens Jim Behrens is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 93 red ls View Post
Question for a ref/refs in general....
Had a match over the weekend where I felt there were back points that were not given properly to my wrestler that earned/deserved them.

So I head to the scores table ,ask the ref where the rest of our back points were ? Ref tells me my wrestler did not meet the critia for back points. I then asked the ref what was the critia I needed to meet in order to get the back points I felt we earned. I was told to go back to the chair and never given an explanation of the "critia" my kid needed to meet...

As a ref will you give a "detailed" explanation if you tell a coach their wrestler didn't "meet the criteria" for something.
Were any near fall (not back) points awarded? If so, how many?

The question I ask of a coach is, can you tell me what the criteria are for near fall points to be awarded? You would be amazed at how few know the answer. If a coach can not answer that basic question, why is he at the table?

If the referee felt like two points were earned BUT the wrestler came out of criteria before a 5 count, he gets just 2 points.
It is possible that the wrestler was either never in criteria OR that he was in and out of criteria but never for a count of two. Two counts of "one" are not a count of two.
Either way, you are asking a question of judgment as to what the official saw and that is very slippery territory.
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  #157  
Old 01-25-16, 06:44 PM
93 red ls 93 red ls is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Behrens View Post
Were any near fall (not back) points awarded? If so, how many?

The question I ask of a coach is, can you tell me what the criteria are for near fall points to be awarded? You would be amazed at how few know the answer. If a coach can not answer that basic question, why is he at the table?

If the referee felt like two points were earned BUT the wrestler came out of criteria before a 5 count, he gets just 2 points.
It is possible that the wrestler was either never in criteria OR that he was in and out of criteria but never for a count of two. Two counts of "one" are not a count of two.
Either way, you are asking a question of judgment as to what the official saw and that is very slippery territory.
Taking control of your wrestler and causing their weight to be on hands, knees , upper legs/thighs or bottom from a neutral position would be a "take down" (sorry if not interpreted 100% correctly and 100% correct me if that's wrong)

2 points were awarded about 20 seconds before the situation of what we felt were back points (where he wasn't awarded any)

my only complaint with my situation is how can a ref tell me my athlete didn't "meet the criteria" ....but in turn cant tell me what criteria he needs to meet to be awarded back points in that situation ????
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  #158  
Old 01-25-16, 07:09 PM
Jim Behrens Jim Behrens is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 93 red ls View Post
Taking control of your wrestler and causing their weight to be on hands, knees , upper legs/thighs or bottom from a neutral position would be a "take down" (sorry if not interpreted 100% correctly and 100% correct me if that's wrong)

2 points were awarded about 20 seconds before the situation of what we felt were back points (where he wasn't awarded any)

my only complaint with my situation is how can a ref tell me my athlete didn't "meet the criteria" ....but in turn cant tell me what criteria he needs to meet to be awarded back points in that situation ????
I am sorry but I am not clear on why the information about a TD was included here. Did I miss something?

Regarding the lack of NF points, if no points were awarded at all then, the official obviously did not feel they were earned.
Not trying to be a jerk but it is not the job of an official to explain the criteria to a coach. It is the responsibility of the coach to know them. The wrestler either met them or didn't.
About the only thing you could logically ask is "were there NF points earned?"
The answer will be either yes or no. There is no further explanation needed.
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  #159  
Old 01-25-16, 08:54 PM
suplex21 suplex21 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Behrens View Post
I am sorry but I am not clear on why the information about a TD was included here. Did I miss something?

Regarding the lack of NF points, if no points were awarded at all then, the official obviously did not feel they were earned.
Not trying to be a jerk but it is not the job of an official to explain the criteria to a coach. It is the responsibility of the coach to know them. The wrestler either met them or didn't.
About the only thing you could logically ask is "were there NF points earned?"
The answer will be either yes or no. There is no further explanation needed.
Jim,
Could I ask why/ or what they saw? Or is that questioning judgement? Could I say,
" I feel like he had him in criteria, can you explain why what you saw did not meet criteria, so I can know for the future?"
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  #160  
Old 01-25-16, 09:22 PM
Jim Behrens Jim Behrens is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suplex21 View Post
Jim,
Could I ask why/ or what they saw? Or is that questioning judgement? Could I say,
" I feel like he had him in criteria, can you explain why what you saw did not meet criteria, so I can know for the future?"
Speaking only for myself, I would have no problem with that. It is short and concise. The answer can be that he wasn't at 45*, he wasn't within 4" of the mat, or whatever. It would take 5 seconds or so and it is done. After that, we are back to wrestling. If the coach persisted then things might go south.
You are not likely to ever win that fight but you can ask (politely) after the match and you would know the answer for future reference.

Keep in mind that in an NCAA event you wouldn't even get that much. If a coach goes to the table, for anything, and something doesn't change then he is charged with delay of match and it is misconduct. They get two of those before being pointed. You don't often see NCAA coaches go to the table.
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  #161  
Old 01-27-16, 03:44 AM
TechFall34 TechFall34 is offline
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I've got a scenario, If wrestler A takes injury time(hurt ankle) and shortly after Wrestler B requires injury time because he is getting sick and runs to the trash can.
Do you start injury time for Wrestler B OR is it a freebie because Wrestler A is on it 1st?
Add to the same scenario, Wrestler A is done and reports back to the mat BUT Wrestler B requires more time...
What's the call??
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  #162  
Old 01-27-16, 08:01 AM
eyes r burning eyes r burning is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TechFall34 View Post
I've got a scenario, If wrestler A takes injury time(hurt ankle) and shortly after Wrestler B requires injury time because he is getting sick and runs to the trash can.
Do you start injury time for Wrestler B OR is it a freebie because Wrestler A is on it 1st?
Add to the same scenario, Wrestler A is done and reports back to the mat BUT Wrestler B requires more time...
What's the call??
Both on injury time, just like you can have both on blood time.
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  #163  
Old 01-27-16, 12:21 PM
suplex21 suplex21 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TechFall34 View Post
I've got a scenario, If wrestler A takes injury time(hurt ankle) and shortly after Wrestler B requires injury time because he is getting sick and runs to the trash can.
Do you start injury time for Wrestler B OR is it a freebie because Wrestler A is on it 1st?
Add to the same scenario, Wrestler A is done and reports back to the mat BUT Wrestler B requires more time...
What's the call??
I think it would be A injury time until A is ready and then start B.

I believe you only run both if it happens simultaneously.
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  #164  
Old 01-27-16, 02:19 PM
dion dion is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eyes r burning View Post
Both on injury time, just like you can have both on blood time.
Agree. However, if one wrestler is on blood time the injury clock stops for the other wrestler
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  #165  
Old 01-27-16, 03:19 PM
eyes r burning eyes r burning is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dion View Post
Agree. However, if one wrestler is on blood time the injury clock stops for the other wrestler
Quick question to go with that. Say this occurs. The injured wrestlers time would start back up from the very moment it was stopped and still be considered the 1st INJ time out when blood was stopped on the opponent, correct?
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  #166  
Old 01-27-16, 07:41 PM
dion dion is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eyes r burning View Post
Quick question to go with that. Say this occurs. The injured wrestlers time would start back up from the very moment it was stopped and still be considered the 1st INJ time out when blood was stopped on the opponent, correct?
Great question! Injury time would be interrupted, but still count as only 1 injury timeout.
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  #167  
Old 01-29-16, 03:59 AM
TechFall34 TechFall34 is offline
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ANSWER to my previous question: We are to run two injury clocks....

OKAY, Now to make the above injury time situation more complicated.

Wrestler A AND Wrestler B already have one injury "to their credit". Wrestler A requires his second injury time, About 20 seconds later Wrestler B then needs his second injury time...
As WE all should know, after the second injury time the opponent has choice...
In the above, How is this handled since they both took their second injury?
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  #168  
Old 01-29-16, 09:02 AM
Jim Behrens Jim Behrens is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TechFall34 View Post
ANSWER to my previous question: We are to run two injury clocks....

OKAY, Now to make the above injury time situation more complicated.

Wrestler A AND Wrestler B already have one injury "to their credit". Wrestler A requires his second injury time, About 20 seconds later Wrestler B then needs his second injury time...
As WE all should know, after the second injury time the opponent has choice...
In the above, How is this handled since they both took their second injury?
Too many unknowns in this situation.
Is A still using injury time? If he is, why would B use his injury time until A was ready to wrestle.
Have they resumed wrestling? If so, the answer is obvious.
In 33 years on a mat, I have never had a situation like this occur. Common sense officiating is the answer. Don't look for boogers.
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  #169  
Old 01-29-16, 04:16 PM
TechFall34 TechFall34 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Behrens View Post
Too many unknowns in this situation.
Is A still using injury time? If he is, why would B use his injury time until A was ready to wrestle.
Have they resumed wrestling? If so, the answer is obvious.
In 33 years on a mat, I have never had a situation like this occur. Common sense officiating is the answer. Don't look for boogers.
I'm jumping off of my previous scenario... Wrestler A hurts his ankle...then wrestler B gets sick... I added the part of it being BOTH of their second injury time... How do we apply the choice after that?
I'm just using scenarios to make guys think... This part of the forum does not have to always be someone complaining does it? Can be used for education as well.
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  #170  
Old 01-29-16, 05:18 PM
eyes r burning eyes r burning is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TechFall34 View Post
I'm jumping off of my previous scenario... Wrestler A hurts his ankle...then wrestler B gets sick... I added the part of it being BOTH of their second injury time... How do we apply the choice after that?
I'm just using scenarios to make guys think... This part of the forum does not have to always be someone complaining does it? Can be used for education as well.
The scenario is so far fetched at this point that he is saying use common sense.

Common sense says disqualify both wrestlers at this point.
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  #171  
Old 01-29-16, 05:23 PM
dion dion is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TechFall34 View Post
I'm jumping off of my previous scenario... Wrestler A hurts his ankle...then wrestler B gets sick... I added the part of it being BOTH of their second injury time... How do we apply the choice after that?
I'm just using scenarios to make guys think... This part of the forum does not have to always be someone complaining does it? Can be used for education as well.
Doesn't seem that complicated. When/if wrestling resumes wrestler B would have choice since A took his 2nd injury time first. The next time wrestling would resume wrestler A would have choice for B taking a second injury time out.
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  #172  
Old 01-29-16, 09:17 PM
TechFall34 TechFall34 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eyes r burning View Post
The scenario is so far fetched at this point that he is saying use common sense.

Common sense says disqualify both wrestlers at this point.
And that's not the correct answer....
Again, I'm just throwing out scenarios to make us think and IF we/you ever see it...you'll know the call...
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  #173  
Old 01-29-16, 09:18 PM
TechFall34 TechFall34 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dion View Post
Doesn't seem that complicated. When/if wrestling resumes wrestler B would have choice since A took his 2nd injury time first. The next time wrestling would resume wrestler A would have choice for B taking a second injury time out.
And you are correct sir...
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  #174  
Old 02-01-16, 07:35 AM
boats19 boats19 is offline
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Legal or Illegal?

Black started on bottom, green awarded 2 points after slam.

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  #175  
Old 02-01-16, 07:47 AM
Suplexer130 Suplexer130 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boats19 View Post
Black started on bottom, green awarded 2 points after slam.

I don't think it was unnecessary force, I wouldn't call it a slam, but then again I am a coach not an official. I am biased though, as I would like to see us adopt the high amplitude throws of FS/Greco to Folkstyle.

Last edited by Suplexer130; 02-01-16 at 12:59 PM.
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  #176  
Old 02-01-16, 12:12 PM
suplex21 suplex21 is offline
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Originally Posted by Suplexer130 View Post
I don't think it was unnecessary force, I wouldn't call it a slam, but then again I am a coach not an official. I am biased thought, as I would like to see us adopt the high amplitude throws of FS/Greco to Folkstyle.
If green was awarded points it was not a slam.
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  #177  
Old 02-02-16, 10:32 AM
TechFall34 TechFall34 is offline
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Question - and this one I DON'T have an answer to -
Wrestler A has his legs around Wrestler B's head - lets say around his knee area, Wrestler A's feet touch together - NOT overlapping - is that an illegal head scissors? OR do the feet have to overlap/intertwine?
I had a coach question this on another mat and I didn't have the "for sure" answer. Reason being, in the Dixon situation we get this scenario and its not an issue....
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  #178  
Old 02-02-16, 11:00 AM
350zjk 350zjk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TechFall34 View Post
Question - and this one I DON'T have an answer to -
Wrestler A has his legs around Wrestler B's head - lets say around his knee area, Wrestler A's feet touch together - NOT overlapping - is that an illegal head scissors? OR do the feet have to overlap/intertwine?
I had a coach question this on another mat and I didn't have the "for sure" answer. Reason being, in the Dixon situation we get this scenario and its not an issue....
Another great question. I really didn't get closure on this question until about 7-8 yrs. ago because I had officials I really respected call it both ways. Ruling: By nature of definition, just as in the "clasping" violation, there must be "some degree" of an overlap.
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  #179  
Old 02-02-16, 11:37 AM
eyes r burning eyes r burning is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 350zjk View Post
Another great question. I really didn't get closure on this question until about 7-8 yrs. ago because I had officials I really respected call it both ways. Ruling: By nature of definition, just as in the "clasping" violation, there must be "some degree" of an overlap.
Just curious, I'm taking it that you got the information from a rules interpreter. I have an objection to this ruling though.

The rule was created to stop someone from creating force in a dangerous way to an opponents head correct?

Although the force isn't the same amount as an overlapped set of feet, I can still create enough pressure to cause harm if I put my feet together and straighten my legs without overlap. (say creating contact at the two knobs of the ankle bone. I wouldn't be overlapping anywhere in this situation)

I would think the proper ruling is that, yes the feet can touch each other without overlapping and still have an illegal head scissors. It isn't always an automatic yes call obviously if the opponent creates the situation, but also it should be called if there is pressure on the head or touching is of the feet is beyond reaction time.

If the feet casually touch without pressure, the official should let it go unless the feet touching is maintained for a period of time well beyond reaction time. Touching beyond reaction time would indicate pressure to the head, otherwise that wrestler would not be able to maintain that position.

What are your thoughts Mr. K?
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  #180  
Old 02-02-16, 11:53 AM
Suplexer130 Suplexer130 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eyes r burning View Post
Just curious, I'm taking it that you got the information from a rules interpreter. I have an objection to this ruling though.

The rule was created to stop someone from creating force in a dangerous way to an opponents head correct?

Although the force isn't the same amount as an overlapped set of feet, I can still create enough pressure to cause harm if I put my feet together and straighten my legs without overlap. (say creating contact at the two knobs of the ankle bone. I wouldn't be overlapping anywhere in this situation)

I would think the proper ruling is that, yes the feet can touch each other without overlapping and still have an illegal head scissors. It isn't always an automatic yes call obviously if the opponent creates the situation, but also it should be called if there is pressure on the head or touching is of the feet is beyond reaction time.

If the feet casually touch without pressure, the official should let it go unless the feet touching is maintained for a period of time well beyond reaction time. Touching beyond reaction time would indicate pressure to the head, otherwise that wrestler would not be able to maintain that position.

What are your thoughts Mr. K?
I'd argue I can apply the same amount of pressure with my feet bent as I can with them straight and touching. Only when I cross them can I exert more pressure.
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