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  #31  
Old 06-21-18, 12:29 PM
TigerPaw TigerPaw is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by queencitybuckeye View Post
some valid points, although there's little doubt about Antifa being garbage, and part of the Alt-Left that sure as hell exists in spite of claims that all fascists are on the right.
Of course there is an alt-left or radical left, extremists, etc. And Antifa is destructive, and no place in civilized society. There are also far more radical right groups - thousands more, according to HS, FBI data etc. And of the 2 "fringe" groups we are talking about, I do not abhor at least the principle of anti-fascism as I do far right groups. And I don't buy into false equivalencies so easily. I would NEVER join any fringe group, and I condemn Antifa, but if I had to... it would be them > KKK or Nazis or White Nationalist/militia groups. That's just me.
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  #32  
Old 06-21-18, 12:39 PM
queencitybuckeye queencitybuckeye is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TigerPaw View Post
Of course there is an alt-left or radical left, extremists, etc. And Antifa is destructive, and no place in civilized society. There are also far more radical right groups - thousands more, according to HS, FBI data etc. And of the 2 "fringe" groups we are talking about, I do not abhor at least the principle of anti-fascism as I do far right groups. And I don't buy into false equivalencies so easily. I would NEVER join any fringe group, and I condemn Antifa, but if I had to... it would be them > KKK or Nazis or White Nationalist/militia groups. That's just me.
In what should be an unneeded disclaimer, I'm not defending white power groups, but at least they are honest in their stated belief, as opposed to antifa, whose name is a 180-degree lie.
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  #33  
Old 06-21-18, 12:43 PM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Originally Posted by TigerPaw View Post
Do you read your own posts lotr10? You abandoned rational debate long ago.

The hypocrisy I was pointing out was if Antifa is wrong and/or dangerous, then so is white nationalism, supremacism, Nazism, etc. You cant bemoan one and enable another - each leads to the other. So are the morally offensive and cynically divisive Big Gov. anti-foreigner policies. So are the attacks on all our institutions and forms of checks and balances. I'm sorry if you can't deal with that opinion. Go ahead and believe the guy who lies every day - I know it's only for our own good.
Setting up straw men and then knocking them down is not an effective argument - it's lazy.

The truth of the matter is that the KKK, white supremacy and American Nazis (even those from Illinois) are basically gone from America and the few remaining screwballs screaming "Sieg Heil" or wearing hoods are universally condemned and have NO political power whatsoever. They are not engaged in violence TODAY like the Antifa group is and they are not funded to the tune of millions of dollars by benefactors like how Soros funds Antifa.

The KKK, American Nazis and White Supremacy groups are criticized ruthlessly by the news & entertainment media and by BOTH liberals & conservatives. But the funny thing is that while critical in an off hand way the entertainment & news media along with democrats and the progressive left seem pretty tolerant of Antifa. I would describe the treatment as signaling that Antifa's heart & ideology are in the right places but their tactics are sometimes a bit extreme.

The other straw man you prop up TP is the notion of "supremacy". What does white nationalism or supremacy even mean in your world? Because you can't find very many TRUE white supremacy folks, that is those that express race hatred through violent acts, you expand the definition of what "white supremacy" is to include almost every POV that disagrees with the progressive definition of supremacy. It's the same thing your side has done to the word "racism". You're overuse of the term has cheapened it to mean nothing.
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  #34  
Old 06-21-18, 12:51 PM
TigerPaw TigerPaw is online now
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You entire post is full of inaccuracies, and frankly delusion.
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  #35  
Old 06-21-18, 12:56 PM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Originally Posted by TigerPaw View Post
Of course there is an alt-left or radical left, extremists, etc. And Antifa is destructive, and no place in civilized society. There are also far more radical right groups - thousands more, according to HS, FBI data etc. And of the 2 "fringe" groups we are talking about, I do not abhor at least the principle of anti-fascism as I do far right groups. And I don't buy into false equivalencies so easily. I would NEVER join any fringe group, and I condemn Antifa, but if I had to... it would be them > KKK or Nazis or White Nationalist/militia groups. That's just me.
On TV and in the movies there are thousands of radical right groups engaged in terrorism and violent plots to bring down the USA. In the real world not so much.

And can you imagine the coverage the kiki torch bearing alt right guys would have generated if they swarmed a progressive speaker at a university and shut their talk down by closing down the roads leading to the venue. Or if these same tiki torch guys had attacked democrats going to hear Hillary speak? Instead they marched around a statue and generated the kind of media coverage normally reserved for a world war!

Kind of like back in the day when a dozen Nazis & White Supremacy guys would hold a rally at Fountain Square down here in Cincy at Christmas time. What a joke. The anti-protestors outnumbered the Nazis 100 - 1 and there was no danger posed to anyone who watched the whole clown show unfold. To compare these guys to the demonstratively violent & dangerous Antifa is a false equivalence of the worst kind.
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  #36  
Old 06-21-18, 12:59 PM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Originally Posted by TigerPaw View Post
You entire post is full of inaccuracies, and frankly delusion.
If you say so TP!
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  #37  
Old 06-21-18, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by queencitybuckeye View Post
In what should be an unneeded disclaimer, I'm not defending white power groups, but at least they are honest in their stated belief, as opposed to antifa, whose name is a 180-degree lie.
I don't think you need to be antifa to see a Nazi armband or KKK hood and want to punch the guy. Or listen to anti-Jew chants with tiki torches march through downtown. Maybe I am wrong.

I said the same thing about the bikers who protected soldiers funerals from those stupid church protestors. I know it is wrong, technically, but...hard to feel sorry. The right to protest can be a challenging concept at times.

In other ways Antifa members do clearly cross the line into very misguided and destructive causes and tactics, which as you state is self-defeating and not difficult at all to criticize.
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  #38  
Old 06-21-18, 01:10 PM
queencitybuckeye queencitybuckeye is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TigerPaw View Post
I don't think you need to be antifa to see a Nazi armband or KKK hood and want to punch the guy. Or listen to anti-Jew chants with tiki torches march through downtown. Maybe I am wrong.

I said the same thing about the bikers who protected soldiers funerals from those stupid church protestors. I know it is wrong, technically, but...hard to feel sorry. The right to protest can be a challenging concept at times.

In other ways Antifa members do clearly cross the line into very misguided and destructive causes and tactics, which as you state is self-defeating and not difficult at all to criticize.
Agree, but the former can't be allowed to excuse the latter.
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  #39  
Old 06-21-18, 01:10 PM
Neopolitan Neopolitan is online now
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Originally Posted by lotr10 View Post
Instead they marched around a statue and generated the kind of media coverage normally reserved for a world war!
I believe one of them also ran his car through a crowd of people to be fair...
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  #40  
Old 06-21-18, 01:28 PM
Yappi Yappi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TigerPaw View Post
I don't think you need to be antifa to see a Nazi armband or KKK hood and want to punch the guy.
You are absolutely right. The real neo-nazis and KKK members are universally hated. The problem starts when legit right-wing organizations are lumped in with those two despised groups.

We know that the neo-nazis and KKK members are bad. There is alot of gray area between legitimate right wing views and crossing over into those vile groups. A good example, being anti-immigrant is not racist nor neo-nazi. Throwing out those terms during these debates is what gave rise to the vile Antifa.
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  #41  
Old 06-21-18, 01:33 PM
queencitybuckeye queencitybuckeye is offline
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Originally Posted by Yappi View Post
You are absolutely right. The real neo-nazis and KKK members are universally hated. The problem starts when legit right-wing organizations are lumped in with those two despised groups.

We know that the neo-nazis and KKK members are bad. There is alot of gray area between legitimate right wing views and crossing over into those vile groups. A good example, being anti-immigrant is not racist nor neo-nazi. Throwing out those terms during these debates is what gave rise to the vile Antifa.
Not to pick nits, but anti-illegal immigrant is not racist. Anti-immigrant most certainly would be.
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  #42  
Old 06-21-18, 01:36 PM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Originally Posted by Neopolitan View Post
I believe one of them also ran his car through a crowd of people to be fair...
No to be fair you would point out that the maniac who rammed the car into a crowd was not one of the Tiki torch bearing guys who held their little match the night before.

To be fair you would also point out that the car ramming was part of a day long battle between Antifa and the alt-right (or whatever they were) protestors.

To be fair you would also point out that the authorities in the place this happened appeared to sit back and let the two groups go at each other.

This reminds me of when that old (78 yrs) Trump supporter sucker punched an Antifa protester in the face. All you "fair" types screamed - "see Trump supporters are violent" to when the facts would say:

* the Trump supporter was inside a Trump rally venue while the protestor he punched was there to stir up trouble.

* the protestor was in this guys face screaming obscenities.

* to compare the SINGULAR action of an old coot who smacked a protestor who was up in his face to the violent Antifa mayhem going on outside the venue is the exact opposite of "fair".
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  #43  
Old 06-21-18, 01:40 PM
TigerPaw TigerPaw is online now
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Video evidence proves otherwise. You also left out Trump encouraging supporters to punch protestors and offering to pay their legal bills.
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  #44  
Old 06-21-18, 01:48 PM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by queencitybuckeye View Post
Not to pick nits, but anti-illegal immigrant is not racist. Anti-immigrant most certainly would be.
Your first sentence is true but I would nit pick your 2nd sentence and say that depending on the circumstances "anti-immigrant" may not be racist.

It depends on what the definition of "anti immigrant" is:

* If someone opposes the current LEVEL of immigration does that make them anti-immigrant and racist? I would say it doean't as the number of immigrants let into the US each year is a valid discussion point.

* If someone opposes family reunification immigration and wants to only have merit based immigration and is deeply opposed to low skilled, non-English speaking, destitute 3rd world immigration does that make them anti-immigrant & racist? I would say again the answer is no as this is a legitimate immigration topic to debate.

* What if someone wanted us to do what we did back in 1924 and call a halt to almost ALL immigration arguing that we need a generation for the current influx to properly assimilate. Is this an anti-immigrant & racist thing to support? I would again say it isn't. Sure I would oppose this drastic of an action towards immigration but it's a discussion we should have as the country moves toward solving this issue.

As an aside, why is "race" even in the conversation. If a person opposes all immigration, including those that would be coming from Canada, Ireland and eastern Europe are they racist?
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  #45  
Old 06-21-18, 01:48 PM
Yappi Yappi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by queencitybuckeye View Post
Anti-immigrant most certainly would be.
Disagree. Our country is very diverse. Saying that we want to close the borders would have no impact on our diversity. Now if you gave preference to one race over another, then you could argue that it was racist barring any other contributing factors.

Being anti-immigrant is a legitimate stance that unfairly has been equated with racism.
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  #46  
Old 06-21-18, 01:58 PM
TigerPaw TigerPaw is online now
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So you actually like foreigners per se, you just don't want them coming here. That sounds complicated, but ok.

Even people from Norway? Lol.
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  #47  
Old 06-21-18, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by TigerPaw View Post
So you actually like foreigners per se, you just don't want them coming here. That sounds complicated, but ok.

Even people from Norway? Lol.
Norway is fine, especially the women.

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  #48  
Old 06-21-18, 02:16 PM
Summa Summa is offline
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Originally Posted by Yappi View Post
Being anti-immigrant is a legitimate stance that unfairly has been equated with racism.
Correct. How can being "anti-immigrant" as being against all immigration be, in itself racists, when immigrants can be of every possible race. If someone said I only want white European immigrants and no others, that would be racist by definition. As would, I only want southeast Asian immigrants but no others or Sub-Saharan Africans but no others.

I am convinced many people don't know what racism actually is or its definition. The left seems to throw the term around so much, especially in cases where it is completely inapplicable, that they have so diluted its actual meaning. Basically, the left is just using the term as a slur against anyone who disagrees with them or their policies.

BTW, hispanic is NOT a race. Hispanics are white, black, indigenous/amerindians and every possible mix of those three. Argentina and Uruguay are whiter than the United States yet they are hispanic.
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  #49  
Old 06-21-18, 02:42 PM
queencitybuckeye queencitybuckeye is offline
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Originally Posted by Yappi View Post

Being anti-immigrant is a legitimate stance that unfairly has been equated with racism.
Legitimate based on what? Not only have we been welcoming to people from other places, but it's one of the primary reasons for our greatness. What has changed?
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  #50  
Old 06-21-18, 02:49 PM
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If the KKK and alt-right can utter their complete nonsense and not take responsibility when people act in their name, why should Antifa be held to a different standard?

I can just hear their comments if someone uses this list to commit evil:
"Lone wolf"
"Psychological problems"
"Mental illness"
"The list didn't kill anyone; a deranged murderer did it."
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  #51  
Old 06-21-18, 02:52 PM
Yappi Yappi is offline
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Originally Posted by queencitybuckeye View Post
Legitimate based on what? Not only have we been welcoming to people from other places, but it's one of the primary reasons for our greatness. What has changed?
Whether you agree with it or not, it's a stance that well-reasoned people can come up with. Same can be said for numerous issues that this country faces. We need to accept that well-educated intelligent people can have opposite opinions from each other and it's not because the "other side" is evil.
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  #52  
Old 06-21-18, 02:54 PM
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A Google/LinkedIn search is "treason" now
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  #53  
Old 06-21-18, 03:21 PM
queencitybuckeye queencitybuckeye is offline
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Originally Posted by Yappi View Post
Whether you agree with it or not, it's a stance that well-reasoned people can come up with. Same can be said for numerous issues that this country faces. We need to accept that well-educated intelligent people can have opposite opinions from each other and it's not because the "other side" is evil.
I'm not on the other side of anything or calling anyone evil. It seems that other than the "damn furriners" types, there would not have been an reasonable argument against immigration for the first couple hundred or so years of our existence. In fact without it, we certainly wouldn't be a world power, but a land mass with almost no people. Therefore, something had to have changed to make "no immigration" a legitimate opinion. What is that something and when did it occur?
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  #54  
Old 06-21-18, 04:07 PM
Yappi Yappi is offline
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Originally Posted by queencitybuckeye View Post
I'm not on the other side of anything or calling anyone evil. It seems that other than the "damn furriners" types, there would not have been an reasonable argument against immigration for the first couple hundred or so years of our existence. In fact without it, we certainly wouldn't be a world power, but a land mass with almost no people. Therefore, something had to have changed to make "no immigration" a legitimate opinion. What is that something and when did it occur?
330 million people. Supply/Demand. We were begging for people in the beginning, now we are the hot destination. Economics says that we should charge a higher price when demand exceeds supply.
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  #55  
Old 06-21-18, 04:08 PM
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Smile

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Norway is fine, especially the women.



Misogynist
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  #56  
Old 06-21-18, 04:48 PM
ronnie mund ronnie mund is offline
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Originally Posted by BlueJayFan View Post
A Google/LinkedIn search is "treason" now
Well weirdo isn't very bright, so there's that.
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  #57  
Old 06-21-18, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by BlueJayFan View Post
A Google/LinkedIn search is "treason" now
It's pretty $h-tty that they did it with the intention of bringing harassment and harm to the ones they "exposed". Not surprised you don't see a problem with that.
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  #58  
Old 06-21-18, 05:10 PM
zeeman zeeman is offline
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The trend is; TP, Hairy, happy and BJF 20 years ago would be described as alt left, now they are centrist? The Dems are moving so far left that itís hurting them in elections, both national and local. It used to swing between Dem and Pub with most people tending to be somewhat centrist. Now you have a shrinking group of centrists and a growing ďfringeĒ on either side, but certainly the left is more vocal. Maybe because they get more media coverage, I donít know, but I do not itís not a good look.
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  #59  
Old 06-21-18, 05:15 PM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Originally Posted by Daddy View Post
If the KKK and alt-right can utter their complete nonsense and not take responsibility when people act in their name, why should Antifa be held to a different standard?

I can just hear their comments if someone uses this list to commit evil:
"Lone wolf"
"Psychological problems"
"Mental illness"
"The list didn't kill anyone; a deranged murderer did it."
The first and most important difference here is that the "alt right" is not advocating that white people murder non-white people.

The second point is that the "alt-right" is not the KKK. By claiming they are similar you are cheapening the ugly racism that the KKK advocates. You may find much of what the "alt-right" advocates to be repugnant, at least to the extent that anyone can see a coherent message from this group, but there is nothing that I've seen that would equate them to the KKK.

As for the murderers you claim were motivated by the alt-right to commit their crimes what proof do you have of this? Some of these mass shooters were progressives, some were right wing and all were deeply troubled. The bottom line is I've yet to see the "alt-right" proactively commit violence in an organized manner in the way the Antifa group routinely does.

You're just engaging in more false equivalences.
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  #60  
Old 06-21-18, 05:25 PM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Originally Posted by zeeman View Post
As I watch all of this unfolding Lotr, I canít be more amazed at how dumb the left really is. They truly believe that this ďresistanceĒ is helping their cause. The country is still at least split 45-45 with that precious 10% being independents. I wonder how in the heck they think this behavior will sway that 10%? We are headed for some dark days when they lose in November and in 2020 which I think they will. It is still way too soon for them to be trying to take the country, the need to be 80-20 in the lead before they are successful because the vast majority of us are armed. It will happen someday, with this I have no doubt. Itís very sad that humans can be be so stupid.
Zeeman the left truly hates those of us on the right. What used to be political differences over how best to solve our problems has morphed into the left viewing the right as evil incarnate and in need of eradication, whatever the cost.

The level to which they demonize those that disagree with them has crossed over from passionate ideological disputes to open war. And I would add that the libertarians, who sometimes feel like they can float above this partisan mess, are hated every bit as much by the progressive left as they hate the right.

And should Trump win reelection in 2020 much of the progressive left will descend into violence. And at that point if the right responds in kind we are done. Whether they want to or not people are going to be forced to choose. The left believes they occupy the moral high ground and would have no trouble ushering in a totalitarian regime to enforce their vision of heaven on earth.
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