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  #31  
Old 06-06-18, 05:59 PM
TylerDurden TylerDurden is offline
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Originally Posted by Indiandad View Post
It is possible to increase pay AND decrease labor cost. If the higher prices labor is more efficient and can produce more than multiple people who are less efficient.
Correct, but I've yet to see anyone on any side of this particular debate that has argued higher priced American workers would be more efficient than illegals.
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  #32  
Old 06-06-18, 07:12 PM
Indiandad Indiandad is offline
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Originally Posted by TylerDurden View Post
Correct, but I've yet to see anyone on any side of this particular debate that has argued higher priced American workers would be more efficient than illegals.
American workers are the most productive and efficient in the world.

A company like Corso finds it cheaper to hire 5 illegals to run shovels and wheel narrows instead of a skilled legal on a skidloader? Less overhead, more labor.
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  #33  
Old 06-06-18, 07:16 PM
TylerDurden TylerDurden is offline
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Originally Posted by Indiandad View Post
American workers are the most productive and efficient in the world.
Got it. So basically all these companies just don't know what they're doing and could easily be more profitable if they just up'd the pay and got American worker? Sounds like you need to start a landscaping company.
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  #34  
Old 06-06-18, 07:30 PM
Arrogate Arrogate is offline
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Originally Posted by Indiandad View Post
This leads to the second part of my solutuon..... cutting Government benefits. People won't work if they aren't hungry.
I agree 100%, as stated in other posts.
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  #35  
Old 06-06-18, 10:01 PM
Gh0st Gh0st is offline
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Originally Posted by TylerDurden View Post
Got it. So basically all these companies just don't know what they're doing and could easily be more profitable if they just up'd the pay and got American worker? Sounds like you need to start a landscaping company.
Perhaps if they were better at running a business they wouldn't have to resort to hiring dirt cheap and illegal labor.

A very good friend owns his own landscaping and outdoor remodeling company that he started from scratch. Makes a profit by selling a great product.
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  #36  
Old 06-07-18, 06:53 AM
Arrogate Arrogate is offline
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Originally Posted by Gh0st View Post
Perhaps if they were better at running a business they wouldn't have to resort to hiring dirt cheap and illegal labor.

A very good friend owns his own landscaping and outdoor remodeling company that he started from scratch. Makes a profit by selling a great product.
Jesus christ
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  #37  
Old 06-07-18, 07:35 AM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Originally Posted by TylerDurden View Post
No that's not what you described. You said that an increase in labor cost would lead to an increase in labor supply, which would then lead to a decrease in overall cost, which I can only assume is due to a decrease in labor cost based on a larger pool of workers and therefore less pay offered. It makes no sense. You then go on to acknowledge that cost would in fact have to go up if pay is increased (contradicting your previous statement), but threw in that people would just start doing their landscaping themselves if that got too high. So if that happens you then have demand for the service going down, which means companies are reducing staffing, reducing staffing cost (decreasing pay) or going out of business. All great things. Basically you just tried to created an economic argument to back your predetermined political belief.
I'll lay it out in steps:

* Increase pay and the pool of people applying for the job is likely to increase.

* OVER TIME, this will lead to a more effective labor force as employers will have a better selection of employees to choose from. "Better" can include everything from showing up on time, working harder to bringing more skills to the job. All of these should lead to HIGHER PRODUCTIVITY.

* OVER A LONGER PERIOD OF TIME employee pay will stabilize and may even drop a bit as a continued larger pool of applicants puts a downward pressure on labor costs.

* When this happens the labor pool begins to shrink and then the cycle starts all over again.

Now here's where it gets tricky and why this problem needs a multi-faceted solution. As employer costs go up they pass it on to the consumer and that could be dangerous. Though I would argue that a slight cost increase is worth it if it leads to a more affluent & stable community to live in. That's why I make every effort to buy American and use due diligence in hiring contractors avoiding those who use illegals.

But as others have noted what MUST accompany a crack down on illegal employment is a restructuring of society's social welfare net. Able bodied folks need to work and not live off the government. If done right this should lead to a reduced tax on Americans which will mitigate to some extent the increased cost of goods & services when the illegal labor force is removed.
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  #38  
Old 06-07-18, 07:37 AM
chs1971 chs1971 is offline
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Originally Posted by Indiandad View Post
This leads to the second part of my solutuon..... cutting Government benefits. People won't work if they aren't hungry.
How can you buy votes if you don't give people other people's' money?
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  #39  
Old 06-07-18, 07:52 AM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Originally Posted by Arrogate View Post
I will throw this out here bc clearly some dont understand the real world when it comes to manual labor and hiring Americans
It is probably different in your white collar world but here in the blue collar world it is a different animal

My employer offers to pay for your rent, utilities, health care, will provide a vehicle if needed, he also pays about 14 bucks an hour after all this.

He interviews people weekly for positions (he employs over 200 people). This is labor in the heat working with cattle so not many people want to do it. He tries to hire Americans first but they dont seem to want the job.

The most common response when he offers a job to someone is will this job be available in x amount of months? Basically will it be available when my unemployment runs out. You cant hire any Americans to do real labor and the pay is good for the job. Probably take home around 40 grand a year with living paid for and no out of pocket expenses for health insurance.

Illegal immigrants are vital to many parts of the agriculture industry and it isnt bc we dont want to hire Americans or we dont pay enough. Quite the opposite.


We have incentivized not working so much that Americans would rather not work and suck off of the govt titz than actually work for a living.

This doesnt mean I am against immigration reform (enforcing the border). Quite the contrary I want immigration laws enforced and to incentivize working again.

To blame Mexicans or employers for our labor problems is very short sighted and shows you really dont understand the problem all that well.

My employer is also a BIG TIME Trump campaign donor who has dealt with the administration on agriculture initiatives/issues

To reiterate, the problem isnt illegal immigrants, it is the liberal way of incentivizing sitting on your azz. If we change that perception than not as many "open" jobs will be available for illegal immigrants.

I have long held the belief it doesnt matter what you pay, most wont take the job anyway, even if offered 6 figures a year. But yah business owners are to blame for this as you can see my employer offers a more than a fair living to his employees and has a labor shortage unless he uses illegals (which he eventually will pay for a visa or help with citizenship if you stay for 6 months)

What is a fair wage? +40 grand, living, health insurance? Id say so. Once you factor in benefits (especislly if he pays for your families insurance) you are clearing over 60 grand easy a year here. Does he need to pay more? Have fun paying extremely higher prices for beef bc we are dang near pricing ourselves out of any ag business market
I agree that if we crack down on illegals and those that hire them other changes MUST be enacted simultaneously to make sure we are being smart about what we're doing. IMO, these changes are:

* Completely rework the social welfare net to reinforce work and not living off the government.

* Stop emphasizing a college education as the only path to material success in the USA. End the federal/state under-righting of college loans and tie such loans to the economic viability of the degree being sought. Cut federal & state direct payments of college tuition. At least half the folks who go to college today should not be there.

You mention the unique situation of agriculture and I would agree to an extent about this. For sure we could have carefully controlled programs in which migrants entered the US on a seasonal basis to work in agriculture.

However, when I was 12 I started working on a big farm in my community. I spent the next 5 years getting to know a fair bit about all the different tasks required to work on a big family commercial farm. One thing I recall is how back in the 1970's the "migrant" farm labor was made up ENTIRELY of African Americans from the deep south (I lived in Western NY at the time). These folks would come up in late spring and stay until late fall living in houses provided by the farmers.

It seemed like the same folks came up EVERY year and they made good money - real good money. In fact they owned their own homes back in Alabama & Georgia and spent the winters down there having accumulated enough money to not have to work. It was a life style that they choose and seemed to profit from. I wonder why it ended?
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  #40  
Old 06-07-18, 07:59 AM
Indiandad Indiandad is offline
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Originally Posted by TylerDurden View Post
Got it. So basically all these companies just don't know what they're doing and could easily be more profitable if they just up'd the pay and got American worker? Sounds like you need to start a landscaping company.
Which makes more sense, buying $50,000 piece of equipment and paying a skilled operator $22/hr + benefits to operate it or pay 5 guys $5/hr to do the same job?
If there are no consequences for hiring the illegals and paying them below minimum wage, employers will continue to hire them.
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  #41  
Old 06-07-18, 08:41 AM
Indiandad Indiandad is offline
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Originally Posted by TylerDurden View Post
Got it. So basically all these companies just don't know what they're doing and could easily be more profitable if they just up'd the pay and got American worker? Sounds like you need to start a landscaping company.
I used to own a landscape company..... years ago.
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  #42  
Old 06-07-18, 09:32 AM
Arrogate Arrogate is offline
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Originally Posted by lotr10 View Post
I'll lay it out in steps:

* Increase pay and the pool of people applying for the job is likely to increase.

* OVER TIME, this will lead to a more effective labor force as employers will have a better selection of employees to choose from. "Better" can include everything from showing up on time, working harder to bringing more skills to the job. All of these should lead to HIGHER PRODUCTIVITY.

* OVER A LONGER PERIOD OF TIME employee pay will stabilize and may even drop a bit as a continued larger pool of applicants puts a downward pressure on labor costs.

* When this happens the labor pool begins to shrink and then the cycle starts all over again.

Now here's where it gets tricky and why this problem needs a multi-faceted solution. As employer costs go up they pass it on to the consumer and that could be dangerous. Though I would argue that a slight cost increase is worth it if it leads to a more affluent & stable community to live in. That's why I make every effort to buy American and use due diligence in hiring contractors avoiding those who use illegals.

But as others have noted what MUST accompany a crack down on illegal employment is a restructuring of society's social welfare net. Able bodied folks need to work and not live off the government. If done right this should lead to a reduced tax on Americans which will mitigate to some extent the increased cost of goods & services when the illegal labor force is removed.
As stated earlier it isnt the pay that is the problem (speaking on who I work for) it is finding people who want to work instead of sucking off the govt tit.

You would think +40k salary, insurance for family, vehicle if needed, housing and utilities paid for etc would entice enough people to want to take the job. However it is just too easy to do nothing.

Simply raising wages isnt the answer. It is changing our culture/mentality. If we do stop providing so much govt assistance, as you stated, we will see people being forced to work again, maybe over time we can change our workforce mentality. As you stated that wont happen unless we slow down the govt assistance.
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  #43  
Old 06-07-18, 09:40 AM
Arrogate Arrogate is offline
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Originally Posted by lotr10 View Post
I agree that if we crack down on illegals and those that hire them other changes MUST be enacted simultaneously to make sure we are being smart about what we're doing. IMO, these changes are:

* Completely rework the social welfare net to reinforce work and not living off the government.

* Stop emphasizing a college education as the only path to material success in the USA. End the federal/state under-righting of college loans and tie such loans to the economic viability of the degree being sought. Cut federal & state direct payments of college tuition. At least half the folks who go to college today should not be there.

You mention the unique situation of agriculture and I would agree to an extent about this. For sure we could have carefully controlled programs in which migrants entered the US on a seasonal basis to work in agriculture.

However, when I was 12 I started working on a big farm in my community. I spent the next 5 years getting to know a fair bit about all the different tasks required to work on a big family commercial farm. One thing I recall is how back in the 1970's the "migrant" farm labor was made up ENTIRELY of African Americans from the deep south (I lived in Western NY at the time). These folks would come up in late spring and stay until late fall living in houses provided by the farmers.

It seemed like the same folks came up EVERY year and they made good money - real good money. In fact they owned their own homes back in Alabama & Georgia and spent the winters down there having accumulated enough money to not have to work. It was a life style that they choose and seemed to profit from. I wonder why it ended?
Why it ended? Because people dont want to work. Just look at all the benefits my employer provides, that he doesnt have to, and we still struggle to find American workers. We get some bc they like the idea of having money but as soon as they realize what real work is they back out.

Also I am sure many businesses wanted to hire cheaper labor at the beginning but the problem has morphed way beyond that now and we are paying for those decisions now in our workforce. Manual labor isnt for white people, is the mindset many people i know have. Also i would think consumers wanting products at the same low prices they are accustomed to contributed greatly to hiring cheaper labor as other costs of doing business went up. Something had to give. Why did jobs go overseas? Do you really think we could find people lining up to make cheap American products? Do you think we would expect higher wages? Would we be ok with products costing exponentially more than they do now bc we hired American labor? Ever see people freak out about corn prices or prices at the pump? I dont think the public really wants to pay more for goods


Also you said you worked in ag when you were 12? How old are you or how long ago was that? I am guessing you are atleast 50. Do you think the attitude of Americans changed since then? Do you think egregious govt assistance contributed to that? My guess is you will say yes, the average American worker isnt the same (or maybe we have less Americans who actually want to work)

I also think you touched on another part of the equation. College education and the idea you have to go to school to get ahead in life. In making this "push" we have snubbed our noses at blue collar workers, trade workers etc. People my age look down upon on those jobs as beneath them. That is a huge problem in our workforce. A lot of jobs are beneath them, especially manual labor. Now we are even seeing college grads think entry level work is beneath them and they should be upper management from the get go.
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  #44  
Old 06-07-18, 09:41 AM
Arrogate Arrogate is offline
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Originally Posted by Indiandad View Post
I used to own a landscape company..... years ago.
Key word years ago...the American worker isnt the same.

Also not every illegal hiring situation comes down to using equipment or hiring illegals. In fact you would probably laugh at the expensive equipment many illegals use on the job where I work.
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  #45  
Old 06-07-18, 09:43 AM
TylerDurden TylerDurden is offline
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Originally Posted by lotr10 View Post
I'll lay it out in steps:

* Increase pay and the pool of people applying for the job is likely to increase.

* OVER TIME, this will lead to a more effective labor force as employers will have a better selection of employees to choose from. "Better" can include everything from showing up on time, working harder to bringing more skills to the job. All of these should lead to HIGHER PRODUCTIVITY.

* OVER A LONGER PERIOD OF TIME employee pay will stabilize and may even drop a bit as a continued larger pool of applicants puts a downward pressure on labor costs.

* When this happens the labor pool begins to shrink and then the cycle starts all over again.
I'm sure you actually believe this.

I have no idea where you learned economic theory, but I've never seen anyone make an argument that across the board wage increases, especially in an industry that is comprised of mostly "unskilled" labor, would lead to decreased overall costs.

In addition you make the incorrect assumption that current labor in the form of illegal immigrants is inherently inferior. The argument against hiring illegals is that they are illegal, it's not that they don't work hard and effectively. The reality is the company could easily end up paying a higher salary for less production. Then there's the fact that you're not considering the increased cost of health insurance, workers comp insurance, taxes, benefits, etc. Bottom line, costs won't go down.
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  #46  
Old 06-07-18, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by TylerDurden View Post
I'm sure you actually believe this.

I have no idea where you learned economic theory, but I've never seen anyone make an argument that across the board wage increases, especially in an industry that is comprised of mostly "unskilled" labor, would lead to decreased overall costs.

In addition you make the incorrect assumption that current labor in the form of illegal immigrants is inherently inferior. The argument against hiring illegals is that they are illegal, it's not that they don't work hard and effectively. The reality is the company could easily end up paying a higher salary for less production. Then there's the fact that you're not considering the increased cost of health insurance, workers comp insurance, taxes, benefits, etc. Bottom line, costs won't go down.
If that was true then raising the min wage will work wonders for this country.
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  #47  
Old 06-07-18, 10:24 AM
OhioBobcatFan06 OhioBobcatFan06 is offline
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biggest crime here is our tax dollars going to employee federal agents. all ice agents should be laid off to go get real jobs
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  #48  
Old 06-07-18, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Indiandad View Post
American workers are the most productive and efficient in the world.
Is there any evidence to support this?
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  #49  
Old 06-07-18, 10:55 AM
Taco MacArthur Taco MacArthur is offline
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Originally Posted by Neopolitan View Post
Is there any evidence to support this?
My initial guess would be Japanese.

Edit:
http://time.com/4621185/worker-productivity-countries/ - Americans 5th most productive. Luxembourg, Ireland, Norway and Belgium come in before the US. This is based on the country's GDP per hour worked. They even have in the article "countering claims that Americans are the most productive workers in the world." lol
http://www.businessinsider.com/the-m...pert-market-13 - this one has USA 6th.
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  #50  
Old 06-07-18, 10:55 AM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Originally Posted by TylerDurden View Post
I'm sure you actually believe this.

I have no idea where you learned economic theory, but I've never seen anyone make an argument that across the board wage increases, especially in an industry that is comprised of mostly "unskilled" labor, would lead to decreased overall costs.

In addition you make the incorrect assumption that current labor in the form of illegal immigrants is inherently inferior. The argument against hiring illegals is that they are illegal, it's not that they don't work hard and effectively. The reality is the company could easily end up paying a higher salary for less production. Then there's the fact that you're not considering the increased cost of health insurance, workers comp insurance, taxes, benefits, etc. Bottom line, costs won't go down.
The argument against hiring illegals is more then the fact it is illegal it also involves the fact that hiring illegals contributes to destroying communities by reducing the value of citizenship and a sense of common community.

And let's be clear much of the motivation by some business owners to hire illegals is to avoid having to pay a prevailing wage and to avoid having to deal with workplace regulations. These employers also benefit from being able to exert increased control over their employees since as illegals it's a lot more difficult for them to change jobs as a means of improving their circumstances.

I'm also NOT advocating across the board wage increases. Business owners would be free to NOT increase wages after their illegal work force option dried up. Or they could could offer alternatives to increased pay like partial ownership. The pay increases would arise organically as employers COMPETED for the best workers in their area of business.
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  #51  
Old 06-07-18, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Arrogate View Post
If that was true then raising the min wage will work wonders for this country.
You're comparing apples & oranges Arrogate as removing the option to hire illegals is NOT the same thing as raising the minimum wage. Employers would be free to offer whatever wage they want. The only difference would be that in this illegal free environment employers would have to compete for the best employees available.
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  #52  
Old 06-07-18, 11:06 AM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Originally Posted by Arrogate View Post
Why it ended? Because people dont want to work. Just look at all the benefits my employer provides, that he doesnt have to, and we still struggle to find American workers. We get some bc they like the idea of having money but as soon as they realize what real work is they back out.

Also I am sure many businesses wanted to hire cheaper labor at the beginning but the problem has morphed way beyond that now and we are paying for those decisions now in our workforce. Manual labor isnt for white people, is the mindset many people i know have. Also i would think consumers wanting products at the same low prices they are accustomed to contributed greatly to hiring cheaper labor as other costs of doing business went up. Something had to give. Why did jobs go overseas? Do you really think we could find people lining up to make cheap American products? Do you think we would expect higher wages? Would we be ok with products costing exponentially more than they do now bc we hired American labor? Ever see people freak out about corn prices or prices at the pump? I dont think the public really wants to pay more for goods


Also you said you worked in ag when you were 12? How old are you or how long ago was that? I am guessing you are atleast 50. Do you think the attitude of Americans changed since then? Do you think egregious govt assistance contributed to that? My guess is you will say yes, the average American worker isnt the same (or maybe we have less Americans who actually want to work)

I also think you touched on another part of the equation. College education and the idea you have to go to school to get ahead in life. In making this "push" we have snubbed our noses at blue collar workers, trade workers etc. People my age look down upon on those jobs as beneath them. That is a huge problem in our workforce. A lot of jobs are beneath them, especially manual labor. Now we are even seeing college grads think entry level work is beneath them and they should be upper management from the get go.
I suspect we agree on more elements of this issue then we disagree about and yes I'm over 50.

As I've posted before we need to change the attitude of the American worker and that mandates a complete remaking of our social welfare net and a recalibration of where college fits in for most young people.

But with that being said I get tired of the "we can't find Americans to do the work" complaint. I'm sure it's true but I suspect that in the vast majority of these cases it simply comes down to business owners amplifying their profit without consideration for the harm they are doing to society. There is no excuse for knowingly hiring illegals and those that do should go to jail.
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  #53  
Old 06-07-18, 11:11 AM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
My initial guess would be Japanese.

Edit:
http://time.com/4621185/worker-productivity-countries/ - Americans 5th most productive. Luxembourg, Ireland, Norway and Belgium come in before the US. This is based on the country's GDP per hour worked. They even have in the article "countering claims that Americans are the most productive workers in the world." lol
http://www.businessinsider.com/the-m...pert-market-13 - this one has USA 6th.
That's quite impressive given the small size of the countries ahead of us. So it means that we have the 2nd most productive work force in country's with over 10,000,000 folks (Belgian has 11,000,000) and we're #1 among country's with more than 15,000,000 people.

It also supports Indiandad's point that there are worse things then relying on the American work force.
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  #54  
Old 06-07-18, 11:15 AM
Taco MacArthur Taco MacArthur is offline
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Originally Posted by lotr10 View Post
That's quite impressive given the small size of the countries ahead of us. So it means that we have the 2nd most productive work force in country's with over 10,000,000 folks (Belgian has 11,000,000) and we're #1 among country's with more than 15,000,000 people.

It also supports Indiandad's point that there are worse things then relying on the American work force.
All true, but is also disproves his claim that Americans are the most productive and efficient workers.
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  #55  
Old 06-07-18, 11:24 AM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
All true, but is also disproves his claim that Americans are the most productive and efficient workers.
Only if you look at the data narrowly. For the sake of this discussion Indiandad's point was largely correct that American worker productivity is exceptional and when comparing apples to apples (large country's) it has the most productive workers.
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  #56  
Old 06-07-18, 11:32 AM
Taco MacArthur Taco MacArthur is offline
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Originally Posted by lotr10 View Post
Only if you look at the data narrowly. For the sake of this discussion Indiandad's point was largely correct that American worker productivity is exceptional and when comparing apples to apples (large country's) it has the most productive workers.
No. He was wrong. He said Americans are the most productive and efficient workers. They aren't. He didn't add a qualifier by saying "Americans are the most productive and efficient workers in countries with more than 15,000,000 in population."
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  #57  
Old 06-07-18, 11:40 AM
Neopolitan Neopolitan is online now
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I'm not sure GDP per hour worked is even a useful stat for these purposes anyway.

It also doesn't break that down by type of labor. It may very well be the case our engineers, executives, entrepreneurs, etc. are the most efficient and productive in the world. But the discussion here primarily revolves around unskilled labor work.
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  #58  
Old 06-07-18, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
No. He was wrong. He said Americans are the most productive and efficient workers. They aren't. He didn't add a qualifier by saying "Americans are the most productive and efficient workers in countries with more than 15,000,000 in population."
Then you're simply playing at GOTCHA which really doesn't contribute to the debate.
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  #59  
Old 06-07-18, 11:58 AM
TylerDurden TylerDurden is offline
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Canadian workers are the most productive in the world. Any empirical evidence anyone wants to present to the contrary is merely an attempt at playing GOTCHA and contributes nothing to this discussion. I win!
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  #60  
Old 06-07-18, 12:01 PM
Taco MacArthur Taco MacArthur is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lotr10 View Post
Then you're simply playing at GOTCHA which really doesn't contribute to the debate.
Of course I'm not and of course it contributes to the debate. Unless you're a fan of #FakeNews that IndianDad tried to pass off? Are you in favor of debates that have factually incorrect information being passed off as fact?
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