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  #1  
Old 04-16-18, 08:35 AM
FeartheNeer FeartheNeer is offline
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Kickoff changes coming to H.S.?

"The NCAA Playing Rules Oversight Panel approved altering football’s kickoff rules to allow the receiving team to fair catch the kick inside the 25-yard line and have it result in a touchback."

NCAA just changed kickoff to allow for fair catches anywhere inside the 25 yard line. Should H.S. make a similar change? How long until Kickoff are out of the game entirely? Would you miss it?
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  #2  
Old 04-16-18, 09:08 AM
GclKing GclKing is offline
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I think kickoffs can be some of the most exciting plays in a game, with that being said they can also be some of the most dangerous plays in the game. I would love to see kickoffs stay apart of the game. I would definitely miss it.
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  #3  
Old 04-16-18, 09:18 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FeartheNeer View Post
"The NCAA Playing Rules Oversight Panel approved altering football’s kickoff rules to allow the receiving team to fair catch the kick inside the 25-yard line and have it result in a touchback."

NCAA just changed kickoff to allow for fair catches anywhere inside the 25 yard line. Should H.S. make a similar change? How long until Kickoff are out of the game entirely? Would you miss it?
NFHS rules already place restrictions on Free Kicks with the ball becoming dead as soon as the kick penetrates the end zone and last year's change prohibiting the ball being driven into the the ground and up into the air.

That said, if the injury data shows that the rates of injury keep trending upwards on this play. I can see more restrictions being enforced, including eliminating the Free Kick in it's entirety.
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Old 04-16-18, 06:33 PM
Tom.OH Tom.OH is offline
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Eliminating free kicks would also eliminate on side kicks. A team that just scored to make it a close game would not have any chance to get the ball back.
Yes I know the kickers recovery rate is not that great but with no on side kick the rate is zero...
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  #5  
Old 04-16-18, 06:50 PM
Yappi Yappi is offline
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Originally Posted by Tom.OH View Post
Eliminating free kicks would also eliminate on side kicks. A team that just scored to make it a close game would not have any chance to get the ball back.
Yes I know the kickers recovery rate is not that great but with no on side kick the rate is zero...
I believe one of the suggestions for that would be the kicking team would have the option of "going for it" on their own 40 yard line and it being 4th and 10. If they fail, it's the other team's ball. If they get the first down, they continue with possession.

This gives the "kicking" team the same odds of converting the play and the "receiving" team the same field position.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of it because a prolific offensive team could keep the ball away from the other team. With two prolific offensive teams, it could significantly change the dynamics of the game.
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  #6  
Old 04-16-18, 06:51 PM
Yappi Yappi is offline
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As for this new college rule, I kind of like it. I've always been a big fan of watching kickoff returns but it seems like it's the one part of the game that is getting the most scrutiny for injuries.
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  #7  
Old 04-17-18, 07:21 AM
FeartheNeer FeartheNeer is offline
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I'm not sure it would be a terrible thing for the game for kickoffs to go away, it would certainly help with the pacing of the game, and it would protect kids. Die hards will say you're losing the integrity of the game, but I would rather see the game modified than lose the sport entirely because of mom and her fear of concussions / injuries. The onside kick issue would have to be addressed, i'm not sure I like the 4th and 10 scenario, I would guess the probability of converting a 4th and 10 is higher than recovering an onside kick. An expected onside kick has ~20% chance of success, what would the distance be to make it comparable to to the % of onside recovery?

Could we be seeing a shift away from all special teams? Statistically it is shown you are almost always better off going for it on 4th down, rather than punt. If kickoff is removed, and punt already diminished, could we see the game of football no longer using the foot?

The more important change in the college world was the cut rule IMO. going to change blocking schemes all over the country.
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  #8  
Old 04-17-18, 10:20 AM
Sykotyk Sykotyk is offline
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One suggestion to make kickoffs safer is to stop making it a live ball after it's kicked so many yards. Keep maybe a 10-20 yard 'live' zone, but after that, it's exclusive to the receiving team. They can let it roll. Catch it and kneel, etc. Keep the halo rule even after the first bounce.
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  #9  
Old 04-17-18, 10:23 AM
Rusty Anchor Rusty Anchor is offline
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Football is a game of injuries, who cares if there are injuries?!?! Chances of a death or a significant spinal injury are low...This all started with you baby boomers giving your kids a ribbon for everything. Now the whole country is soft.
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  #10  
Old 04-17-18, 10:56 AM
team all in team all in is offline
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Why did my post get deleted?
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  #11  
Old 04-17-18, 11:35 AM
bigkat bigkat is offline
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heard on one of the sports shows , that most injuries while playing football comes during kickoffs, maybe it is time to take a look at the safety practices put into that part of the game
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  #12  
Old 04-17-18, 11:38 AM
catstix catstix is offline
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Kickoffs in 4th Quarter Only

A lot of sports have special rules in the last quarter of play, or last few minutes. The officials have a consume/conserve option with the clock on penalties and stuff late in a game. I'd say more so for the pace of the game aspect, I'd say no kickoffs until the 4th quarter. That way, if you do score late in the game and need an onside kick, you will have the chance to do so with a kickoff. Also, you could choose to kickoff or give the team the ball on the 25 yard line, so you'd still have the choice as the kicking team. The 2nd quarter touchdown doesn't need us marching back up the field 60 yards and kicking off. Just start from the 25yd line and lets go.

Obviously, 75% of the game would be free from kickoffs, therefore injury opportunities on these types of plays reduced dramatically. Win-win and you keep the aspect of the kickoff that you need late in games for a potential onside kick scenario. Not a major change in my book and so simple, it won't happen. LOL.
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  #13  
Old 04-17-18, 12:10 PM
tribefan23 tribefan23 is offline
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In high school football, the kickoff play varies from team to team. Especially with smaller schools, you never know what kind of kicker you will have. A team with a kid that can kick it into the endzone obviously has the bigger advantage to a team that doesn't have anyone that can kick past the 25 yard line. Takes some of the strategy out of it. If every team starts from the 25 regardless, it takes the advantage of having a good kicker away from the team.

I'm sure we've all seen where a big kickoff return can shift momentum too. A team just scored, is feeling good, then the very next play, a kickoff is returned to the 50. The other team just got the momentum back. I know it's all about "safety first" and yadda yadda yadda, but special teams are such a huge part of the game and before we know it, HS and college football will have pee wee rules with no punting or kickoffs of any kind. I know its not nearly as high but I would love to see the stats on how many kids are injured during punt returns as well.
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  #14  
Old 04-17-18, 12:52 PM
FeartheNeer FeartheNeer is offline
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If you decide to remove or limit kickoffs then do you need to re-evaluate starting position of drives? From the 25 yard line you still only have a ~20% probability of scoring a touchdown. With a reduced emphasis on kicking you will see a decrease in FG ability? would we need to consider moving the starting position up 5-10 yards?
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  #15  
Old 04-17-18, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catstix View Post
A lot of sports have special rules in the last quarter of play, or last few minutes. The officials have a consume/conserve option with the clock on penalties and stuff late in a game. I'd say more so for the pace of the game aspect, I'd say no kickoffs until the 4th quarter. That way, if you do score late in the game and need an onside kick, you will have the chance to do so with a kickoff. Also, you could choose to kickoff or give the team the ball on the 25 yard line, so you'd still have the choice as the kicking team. The 2nd quarter touchdown doesn't need us marching back up the field 60 yards and kicking off. Just start from the 25yd line and lets go.

Obviously, 75% of the game would be free from kickoffs, therefore injury opportunities on these types of plays reduced dramatically. Win-win and you keep the aspect of the kickoff that you need late in games for a potential onside kick scenario. Not a major change in my book and so simple, it won't happen. LOL.
May be too radical, but I like the idea of not losing the 4th quarter onside kick. If onside kicks are unavailable, there would be a bit fewer 4th quarter comebacks.
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  #16  
Old 04-17-18, 06:18 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by Rusty Anchor View Post
Chances of a death or a significant spinal injury are low...This all started with you baby boomers giving your kids a ribbon for everything.
This all started when the statistical data began showing that the chances have become exponentially higher over the years.

It's also the reason why the NCAA and the NFL and started reverting towards the NFHS when it comes to safety related rules.
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  #17  
Old 04-20-18, 07:36 AM
chs1971 chs1971 is offline
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With the NCAA change, and a change being considered in the NFL, we will see it at the interscholastic level.

I do not like the NCCA rule at the high school level. Kickers and receivers are both inconsistent, and even more so at the JV and freshman level. Plus I would like a rule that is easier to officiate. In junior high games the ball is just placed on the 35. That's too far, and doesn't allow for an onside kick.

So I conducted an in-depth scientific study and asked two coaches.

Q1. Instead of kicking off, would you give the opponents the ball on the 30 yard line?
A1: It depends on who we are playing and how good our kicker is that year.

Q2: Instead of kicking off, would you give the opponents the ball on the 25 yard line?
A2: Yes, absolutely every time.

So the answer is somewhere between the 25 and the 30. Lets make it the 28. After a score you can kickoff or spot the ball on the 28. I bet the only coaches that kickoff are those that know their kicker can put the ball in the end zone every time (A touchback, and the ball is dead.) and when they want to onside kick.

Problem solved.
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  #18  
Old 04-20-18, 09:04 AM
Rangerfan Rangerfan is offline
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I did an analysis of Minster's 2014 D6 state championship team and their opponents.

Minster converted 26 out of 67 (39%) of their third and fourth downs of 10 yards or more.

Their opponents converted just 9-69 (13%) of their third and fourth downs of 10 yards or more.

Combined, the teams converted 35-136 (26%).

That percentage seems a little high to me, though I have thought that high school teams seem to convert more onside kicks than do college teams (and college teams convert more than do the pros).
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  #19  
Old 04-20-18, 10:44 AM
dograt dograt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chs1971 View Post
With the NCAA change, and a change being considered in the NFL, we will see it at the interscholastic level.

I do not like the NCCA rule at the high school level. Kickers and receivers are both inconsistent, and even more so at the JV and freshman level. Plus I would like a rule that is easier to officiate. In junior high games the ball is just placed on the 35. That's too far, and doesn't allow for an onside kick.

So I conducted an in-depth scientific study and asked two coaches.

Q1. Instead of kicking off, would you give the opponents the ball on the 30 yard line?
A1: It depends on who we are playing and how good our kicker is that year.

Q2: Instead of kicking off, would you give the opponents the ball on the 25 yard line?
A2: Yes, absolutely every time.

So the answer is somewhere between the 25 and the 30. Lets make it the 28. After a score you can kickoff or spot the ball on the 28. I bet the only coaches that kickoff are those that know their kicker can put the ball in the end zone every time (A touchback, and the ball is dead.) and when they want to onside kick.

Problem solved.
wonder what the answers would've been if you asked them for receiving kicks?
Q1 would you rather have it on the 25 or have the chance to return it?
Q2 would you rather have it on the 30 or have the chance to return it?
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  #20  
Old 04-20-18, 11:32 AM
tribefan23 tribefan23 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dograt View Post
wonder what the answers would've been if you asked them for receiving kicks?
Q1 would you rather have it on the 25 or have the chance to return it?
Q2 would you rather have it on the 30 or have the chance to return it?
As a general question, I would say most coaches would want the chance to return it. But again, depends on what school it is. How many times do kickoff returns not make to at least the 25? More often than not.

I wonder how far the average kickoff actually is in Ohio high school sports? In my experience, if you have someone that can kick it inside the 10 or even the 15, you're doing pretty well. So getting the ball to the 25 or 30 each time is pretty easy.
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Old 04-20-18, 12:45 PM
chs1971 chs1971 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tribefan23 View Post
As a general question, I would say most coaches would want the chance to return it. But again, depends on what school it is. How many times do kickoff returns not make to at least the 25? More often than not.

I wonder how far the average kickoff actually is in Ohio high school sports? In my experience, if you have someone that can kick it inside the 10 or even the 15, you're doing pretty well. So getting the ball to the 25 or 30 each time is pretty easy.
A touchback is spotted on the 20, a kick out of bounds is set on the 35. The 28 splits the difference.

I think a majority of returns come out past the 25, not very many come out past the 35. It would be easy enough to look at film and get a good idea.

I think most offensive coaches would be content to get the ball on the 28 because;
no chanced of an injury,
no chance of a fumble on the return,
no chance of a block in the back or blindside block foul setting you back inside the 20 yard line.
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Old 04-20-18, 12:52 PM
tribefan23 tribefan23 is offline
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Originally Posted by chs1971 View Post
A touchback is spotted on the 20, a kick out of bounds is set on the 35. The 28 splits the difference.

I think a majority of returns come out past the 25, not very many come out past the 35. It would be easy enough to look at film and get a good idea.

I think most offensive coaches would be content to get the ball on the 28 because;
no chanced of an injury,
no chance of a fumble on the return,
no chance of a block in the back or blindside block foul setting you back inside the 20 yard line.
Also no chance of a big return to set up an easier scoring change and change momentum in your favor. Kickoffs happen after a touchdown (except beginning of the game or halftime, whichever you chose) and kids are usually not happy. There's something to be said about a good kickoff return that gets kids fired up again about going back down and scoring. It just takes that element completely out of the game.
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Old 04-20-18, 01:06 PM
dograt dograt is offline
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I'm always surprised by how many coaches take the ball on the 35 on a kick out-of-bounds.
I love making them re-kick from 5 yards further back (depending on the kicker of course). I like my odds of returning a kick to the 30 normally, so the 35 after the penalty is probable, and we have the possibility of a momentum changing play.
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Old 04-20-18, 01:30 PM
chs1971 chs1971 is offline
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Originally Posted by tribefan23 View Post
Also no chance of a big return to set up an easier scoring change and change momentum in your favor. Kickoffs happen after a touchdown (except beginning of the game or halftime, whichever you chose) and kids are usually not happy. There's something to be said about a good kickoff return that gets kids fired up again about going back down and scoring. It just takes that element completely out of the game.
At all levels, football is a game of percentages and tendencies.

What's more likely, a return for a TD or a short field for a TD, or a penalty, fumble, or injury?
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Old 04-20-18, 01:33 PM
chs1971 chs1971 is offline
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Originally Posted by dograt View Post
I'm always surprised by how many coaches take the ball on the 35 on a kick out-of-bounds.
I love making them re-kick from 5 yards further back (depending on the kicker of course). I like my odds of returning a kick to the 30 normally, so the 35 after the penalty is probable, and we have the possibility of a momentum changing play.
Yeah, like an injury, or a fumble, or a block in the back or blindside block foul., which are all more likely than a long kick off return.

No thank you. That's why almost every coach takes the ball on the 35.
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Old 04-20-18, 01:40 PM
tribefan23 tribefan23 is offline
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Originally Posted by chs1971 View Post
At all levels, football is a game of percentages and tendencies.

What's more likely, a return for a TD or a short field for a TD, or a penalty, fumble, or injury?
Never said return for a TD. It depends who you are playing. If you know the other team has a good kicker, you take the ball on the 25 or 30. If you know they don't, you risk the kickoff to get better field position.
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  #27  
Old 04-20-18, 07:09 PM
chs1971 chs1971 is offline
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Good points by tribefan and dog rat, but remember that every level of football is discussing or experimenting with ways to eliminate the kickoff from the game. It is going to happen. I would like to see it done in a way that is least intrusive,
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Old 04-23-18, 08:20 AM
Rusty Anchor Rusty Anchor is offline
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Originally Posted by chs1971 View Post
Yeah, like an injury, or a fumble, or a block in the back or blindside block foul., which are all more likely than a long kick off return.

No thank you. That's why almost every coach takes the ball on the 35.
There is not one coach that is taking the ball at the 35 because he is afraid of an injury. Truth is most of them either dont know the rule or are foolish.
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