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  #31  
Old 05-26-18, 07:24 AM
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Email goes out today at high noon. Yappi faithful has three hours and counting to request corrections. Let the countdown commence. A reply if any will be posted here.
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  #32  
Old 05-26-18, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Lancermania View Post
Email goes out today at high noon. Yappi faithful has three hours and counting to request corrections. Let the countdown commence. A reply if any will be posted here.
One correction, Lancermania, and I should've remembered this sooner, but the 1970 state meet was split into TWO locations:

Class AA - Gahanna Lincoln HS
Class A - Upper Arlington HS

I've attached a copy of that proof here.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf 1970 State Results - Lima News - 25 May 70.pdf (511.8 KB, 28 views)
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  #33  
Old 05-26-18, 07:47 AM
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This is the timeline I will present to Tim Stried.

1908 - Denison University in Granville
1909 - Ohio Wesleyan University in Delaware
1910-1923 - Ohio Field (OSU)
1924-1998 (except for 1970) - Ohio Stadium
1970 - Gahanna Lincoln High School AA meet, Upper Arlington High School A meet (Columbus)
1999-2003 - Welcome Stadium, Dayton
2004-present - Jesse Owens Stadium
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  #34  
Old 05-26-18, 08:07 AM
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Here is a copy of the 1970 State meet program which shows the sites of the meets.

http://www.swotccca.com/Documents/Ou...t%20Progam.pdf
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  #35  
Old 05-26-18, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Lancermania View Post
Here is a copy of the 1970 State meet program which shows the sites of the meets.

http://www.swotccca.com/Documents/Ou...t%20Progam.pdf
Very cool!
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  #36  
Old 05-26-18, 11:18 AM
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It should be noted that in 1997, the track at Ohio Stadium began to be referred to as Jesse Owens Track Ohio Stadium. That lasted for two year until the meet went to Welcome Stadium in Dayton while Jess Owens Memorial Stadium was being built. http://www.swotccca.com/Documents/Ou...%20Program.pdf
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  #37  
Old 05-27-18, 11:15 AM
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Tim Stried send out another media release today standing by his original release yesterday stating that the state meet was at Ohio Wesleyan from 1909-1923 and that the meet was never held at Gahanna Lincoln and Upper Arlington. This in spite of the evidence I send him yesterday from JAVMAN83 and from what I found on the 1970 State meet program. Is stubborn pride getting in the way of his reporting that his information sent out previously was incorrect or doesn't he trust JAVAMN83 AND LANCERMANIA to present accurate information? Perhaps he believes we doctored the information sent to him
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  #38  
Old 05-27-18, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lancermania View Post
Tim Stried send out another media release today standing by his original release yesterday stating that the state meet was at Ohio Wesleyan from 1909-1923 and that the meet was never held at Gahanna Lincoln and Upper Arlington. This in spite of the evidence I send him yesterday from JAVMAN83 and from what I found on the 1970 State meet program. Is stubborn pride getting in the way of his reporting that his information sent out previously was incorrect or doesn't he trust JAVAMN83 AND LANCERMANIA to present accurate information? Perhaps he believes we doctored the information sent to him
Relax, man.

Stried can double down all day, but he's wrong. There's a link to a historical piece on the OHSAA's very own track and field page stating that the meet moved to OSU in 1910. The piece was written 10 years ago. http://www.ohsaa.org/sports/history/...features/track
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  #39  
Old 05-27-18, 12:16 PM
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Article from the 1911 New Philadelphia Ohio Times and Democrat:

April 20, 1911

High School Won't Be Represented At Meet
New Philadelphia - The announcement of the fourth annual track and field meet of the Ohio High School Athletic Association to be held at Columbus, have been sent out to members of the association by H. Shindle Weingert, managing director of the meet. This meet will be held on Ohio Field on Saturday, May 20, under the auspices of the Ohio State University Athletic Association.

The annual spring meet of the Ohio high schools is fast becoming one of the most important field and track meets that is pulled off in the state during the year. It brings athletes from fifty or sixty different schools in competition, and the champion high school track team of the state can practically be decided upon in this meet.

The only expense that is borne by any high school in sending a team to the meet is in transportation. After the teams arrive in Columbus, they are met at the trains by O.S.U. students and treated royally. The visiting athletes are housed free of charge in the different fraternity houses. If possible, special rates will be secured for the occasion on all steam roads and traction lines entering Columbus.

The local high school is a member of the association, but will not send a track team to the meet this year. The first year that these big meets started, New Philadelphia high sent a team to compete, and in spite of the lack of practice and inexperience that handicapped the team, it made a creditable showing, ranking seventh among the 27 schools that were entered. Since the spring of 1908, track athletics have waned and nothing has been done since. There is no doubt but that a good team could be gotten together to represent this city in a creditable manner in any meet, but no interest was ever shown in the team, and for that reason track work was given up.



That's a rather detailed account of a meet held in Columbus at OSU that was allegedly not held in Columbus nor at OSU according to the OHSAA. Also, the article alludes once again to the fact that qualification was not a requirement for the earliest editions of the state meet. Whether or not you trust old newspapers as the most reliable resources, the message has been consistent regarding meet locations and procedures for entrance into the meet.
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  #40  
Old 05-27-18, 12:20 PM
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I got my 1970 program from the OHSAA office, so that evidence about the 1970 meet is available to anyone working at the OHSAA office to verify. Also they have results from every state meet up there. I know because I went up there three times. They have what they call a library on the second floor where you can check through their archives. Evidently the person who posted the results on the track and field web site searched through those results which are not complete btw. They have these notes:

**Note: The OHSAA does not have any individual results or other team scores from
1908-1911.
**The state track meet was first run at Denison University in 1908 with just 12 schools
participating, moving to Ohio Wesleyan University the next year. The meet then
relocated to the campus of Ohio State University in 1910. Except for the years 1999-
2003, when the meet was held at Dayton Welcome Stadium, the state boys track meet
has taken place on the OSU campus ever since.

The person who uploaded the results to the OHSAA web site evidently did his research on what was available at the office. My question is where did Stried get his information from since the OHSAA does have the correct information about where the meet was held except for 1970 which is posted on their web site.

Last edited by Lancermania; 05-27-18 at 12:38 PM..
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  #41  
Old 05-27-18, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lancermania View Post
I got my 1970 program from the OHSAA office, so that evidence about the 1970 meet is available to anyone working at the OHSAA office to verify. Also they have results from every state meet up there. I know because I went up there three times. They have what they call a library on the second floor where you can check through their archives. Evidently the person who posted the results on the track and field web site searched through those results which are not complete btw. They have these notes:

**Note: The OHSAA does not have any individual results or other team scores from
1908-1911.
**The state track meet was first run at Denison University in 1908 with just 12 schools
participating, moving to Ohio Wesleyan University the next year. The meet then
relocated to the campus of Ohio State University in 1910. Except for the years 1999-
2003, when the meet was held at Dayton Welcome Stadium, the state boys track meet
has taken place on the OSU campus ever since.

The person who uploaded the results to the OHSAA web site evidently did his research on what was available at the office. My question is where did Stried get his information from since the OHSAA does have the correct information about where the meet was held except for 1970 which is posted on their web site.
What's even more damning is the fact that they list exactly what we've been listing here in their own meet programs! Checking through my 2012 copy of the meet program, pg. 66, the State Tournament Timeline is listed as follows:

1908 - Denison
1909 - Ohio Wesleyan
1910 - Ohio Field
1924 - Ohio Stadium (1st time)
1970 - Upper Arlington (Class A); Gahanna Lincoln (Class AA)
1998 - Last time at Ohio Stadium
1999 - Welcome Stadium
2004 - Return to OSU at Jesse Owens Memorial Stadium


Now, does OHSAA not even consult their own publications, whether they are right or wrong? There are a few items in their program that are incorrect, but that's another matter. What is puzzling is why their communications guy would say something that is totally at odds with their own publication???
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  #42  
Old 05-27-18, 12:53 PM
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OHSAA won't be able to say they don't have results for those years (1908-1911) going into 2019, and the years 1912-1920 will be more clearly documented.

I'm also going to point out the errors in their meet program. Not many, but they should be corrected. One immediate one that should be corrected is that the 880 yard run WAS run at the 1908 meet. The scoring doesn't work if there is no 880. Trust me, I spent awhile working that issue out.
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  #43  
Old 05-27-18, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by JAVMAN83 View Post
OHSAA won't be able to say they don't have results for those years (1908-1911) going into 2019, and the years 1912-1920 will be more clearly documented.

I'm also going to point out the errors in their meet program. Not many, but they should be corrected. One immediate one that should be corrected is that the 880 yard run WAS run at the 1908 meet. The scoring doesn't work if there is no 880. Trust me, I spent awhile working that issue out.
What makes you think they will accept what you submit when they don't accept the information we submitted to the communication director about the meet sites?
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  #44  
Old 05-27-18, 01:03 PM
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What makes you think they will accept what you submit when they don't accept the information we submitted to the communication director about the meet sites?
Just gotta make sure you go through the proper channels.

The whole state track meet location thing could just be confusion on Stried's part. There was a state HS basketball tournament held at OWU from 1909-1922 which preceded the OHSAA's basketball tournament that began in 1923.
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  #45  
Old 05-27-18, 01:06 PM
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I'm being too harsh on Stried. He has a lot going on right now with all the state tournaments going on at the state time.
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  #46  
Old 05-27-18, 01:16 PM
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What makes you think they will accept what you submit when they don't accept the information we submitted to the communication director about the meet sites?
Do you know for sure they haven't accepted the information?
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  #47  
Old 05-27-18, 01:18 PM
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Do you know for sure they haven't accepted the information?
No, Mr. Slippery told me I should relax. I think Stried is just too busy right now to deal with it. After all, he only got the information I sent him yesterday if he even looked at it.
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  #48  
Old 05-27-18, 01:26 PM
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No, Mr. Slippery told me I should relax. I think Stried is just too busy right now to deal with it. After all, he only got the information I sent him yesterday if he even looked at it.
It sounds like you submitted things in the proper manner. OHSAA has something somewhere on its website about how to submit things for consideration. All I remember for sure is they won't take phone calls about this stuff.

You and JAV's hearts are in the right place. You just want things to be portrayed as accurately as possible. It'll all be corrected in good time.
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  #49  
Old 05-27-18, 01:28 PM
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Mr. Slippery is the mediator between the OHSAA and JAVMAN83/Lancermania.
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  #50  
Old 05-27-18, 02:42 PM
JAVMAN83 JAVMAN83 is offline
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Originally Posted by Mr. Slippery View Post
It sounds like you submitted things in the proper manner. OHSAA has something somewhere on its website about how to submit things for consideration. All I remember for sure is they won't take phone calls about this stuff.

You and JAV's hearts are in the right place. You just want things to be portrayed as accurately as possible. It'll all be corrected in good time.
I believe that as well. I've been working on this for quite awhile (years), and am wanting to document everything properly so there are no questions. The key for me was discovering awhile back that the scoring and the listed placers weren't making sense. My eventual goal is to document everything up thru the 1970 meet. However, my first focus is on 1908-1920, then 1921-1950 period. Those are the hardest due to the lack of publicly available yearbooks to correctly identify athletes through. After 1950, it gets a lot simpler & less time consuming.

Another reason for doing this project: All those athletes deserve not to be forgotten. Their descendants also deserve to know the athletic exploits of their great grandparents, grandparents, fathers, uncles, etc.

There's a whole research project that should be done on the women's side as well. Not just the 1975-present period, but women's track & field has been around in Ohio at both the HS & collegiate level since the earliest years of the 20th century as well. I've got a few results from a 1913 women's dual between Lake Erie's college & Vassar where two "world" records were set. Viriginia Hamilton of Lake Erie college set a pole vault record of 5' 4 1/2", and Charlotte Straw (affiliation?) set a 60 yard hurdles record of 9 4/5 seconds. I've seen tons of women's teams noted in various early 20th century yearbooks. The decline of women's teams seems to have taken place in the 1930's, I suspect having at least somewhat to do with the Depression, and didn't rise again until the 1960s. Someone ought to do a whole project on all of that. Quite fascinating.

Last edited by JAVMAN83; 05-28-18 at 07:31 AM..
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  #51  
Old 05-27-18, 03:46 PM
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I believe that is well. I've been working on this for quite awhile (years), and am wanting to document everything properly so there are no questions. The key for me was discovering awhile back that the scoring and the listed placers weren't making sense. My eventual goal is to document everything up thru the 1970 meet. However, my first focus is on 1908-1920, then 1921-1950 period. Those are the hardest due to the lack of publicly available yearbooks to correctly identify athletes through. After 1950, it gets a lot simpler & less time consuming.
I know of at least 1 error in the 1948 results. The event is the 120HH. The winner was Ray Hamilton of Canton McKinley who is listed 4th in the results on the OHSAA website. I came across that in the Canton paper's microfilms while trying to find something else. It's the only way McKinley finishes with 22 points. Hamilton's winning time was reported as 15.0.

Even Mansfield's paper mentions Marty Bricker as being 4th in the 120HH (OHSAA results show him as the winner).

Not surprisingly, the Mansfield sports editor wrote an article about how poorly organized that edition of the state meet was.

The star of that meet was Lancaster's Gene Cole who conquered the sprint triple and set a then-national record in the 440.

Last edited by Mr. Slippery; 05-27-18 at 04:01 PM..
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  #52  
Old 05-27-18, 04:01 PM
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I believe that is well. I've been working on this for quite awhile (years), and am wanting to document everything properly so there are no questions. The key for me was discovering awhile back that the scoring and the listed placers weren't making sense. My eventual goal is to document everything up thru the 1970 meet. However, my first focus is on 1908-1920, then 1921-1950 period. Those are the hardest due to the lack of publicly available yearbooks to correctly identify athletes through. After 1950, it gets a lot simpler & less time consuming.

Another reason for doing this project: All those athletes deserve not to be forgotten. Their descendants also deserve to know the athletic exploits of their great grandparents, grandparents, fathers, uncles, etc.

There's a whole research project that should be done on the women's side as well. Not just the 1975-present period, but women's track & field has been around in Ohio at both the HS & collegiate level since the earliest years of the 20th century as well. I've got a few results from a 1913 women's dual between Lake Erie's college & Vassar where two "world" records were set. Viriginia Hamilton of Lake Erie college set a pole vault record of 5' 4 1/2", and Charlotte Straw (affiliation?) set a 60 yard hurdles record of 9 4/5 seconds. I've seen tons of women's teams noted in various early 20th century yearbooks. The decline of women's teams seems to have taken place in the 1930's, I suspect having at least somewhat to do with the Depression, and didn't rise again until the 1960s. Someone ought to do a whole project on all of that. Quite fascinating.
The Depression no doubt was a major obstacle, but also the OHSAA did away with girls interscholastic competition in 1940 stating that athletics were too strenuous for females. Some HSs, especially smaller ones had girls basketball teams prior to that decision.

In my county, the various schools' Girls Athletic Associations began holding a girls county track meet as early as 1963. Among the events contested at the inaugural meet in 1963 were the: 50yd. dash, 50yd. hurdles, and the softball throw. The inaugural 50 yd. dash was won by Renee Powell who went on to play golf on the LPGA tour and was inducted into the PGA Hall of Fame last year. Her father Bill was the first African-American to design, build, own, and operate a golf course in the U.S. - Clearview Golf Club near East Canton, OH.
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  #53  
Old 05-27-18, 06:24 PM
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The Depression no doubt was a major obstacle, but also the OHSAA did away with girls interscholastic competition in 1940 stating that athletics were too strenuous for females. Some HSs, especially smaller ones had girls basketball teams prior to that decision.

In my county, the various schools' Girls Athletic Associations began holding a girls county track meet as early as 1963. Among the events contested at the inaugural meet in 1963 were the: 50yd. dash, 50yd. hurdles, and the softball throw. The inaugural 50 yd. dash was won by Renee Powell who went on to play golf on the LPGA tour and was inducted into the PGA Hall of Fame last year. Her father Bill was the first African-American to design, build, own, and operate a golf course in the U.S. - Clearview Golf Club near East Canton, OH.
Not surprising about OHSAA doing that in 1940. Interesting that the view of women's athletics regressed then when it had been fairly progressive during the preceding decades. I wonder what changed.
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Old 05-27-18, 06:30 PM
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I know of at least 1 error in the 1948 results. The event is the 120HH. The winner was Ray Hamilton of Canton McKinley who is listed 4th in the results on the OHSAA website. I came across that in the Canton paper's microfilms while trying to find something else. It's the only way McKinley finishes with 22 points. Hamilton's winning time was reported as 15.0.

Even Mansfield's paper mentions Marty Bricker as being 4th in the 120HH (OHSAA results show him as the winner).

Not surprisingly, the Mansfield sports editor wrote an article about how poorly organized that edition of the state meet was.

The star of that meet was Lancaster's Gene Cole who conquered the sprint triple and set a then-national record in the 440.
Yes, that isn't the only meet that had problems in reporting. That's what is very tedious about this process...weeding out bad info from good info. This includes not just mistakes on OHSAA's part, but in newspaper reporting itself. That's why I'm documenting all I can through auxiliary documents so that any information I don't find or is questionable can be followed up by others and corrected.

Yes, Gene Cole was quite the stud of the '48 Class A meet! He led 5 gives under 50 seconds in the 440 yard dash, which was run with one turn in those days. Dash a 220y straightaway, then complete the run as if running a real 220y - except, you were allowed to break at some point of the run. At what point I haven't ascertained yet. The 220y & 220y lows were also run on a straightaway then as well.
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Old 05-27-18, 06:35 PM
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Not surprising about OHSAA doing that in 1940. Interesting that the view of women's athletics regressed then when it had been fairly progressive during the preceding decades. I wonder what changed.
Don't know if the ever-increasing likelihood of the U.S. eventually having to enter WWII had anything to do with it, i.e. have the females focusing on other things that might later be more beneficial to the war effort.

Incidentally, the war took its toll on boys sports, too. Some schools couldn't travel much due to supply shortages for civilian goods (ex. school bus tires were being rationed, as was fuel). Some boys obviously joined the military before they graduated (my grandpa did that), and others gave up sports and possibly school altogether to take jobs in factories and other places where labor was in high demand.
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Old 05-27-18, 07:49 PM
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Don't know if the ever-increasing likelihood of the U.S. eventually having to enter WWII had anything to do with it, i.e. have the females focusing on other things that might later be more beneficial to the war effort.

Incidentally, the war took its toll on boys sports, too. Some schools couldn't travel much due to supply shortages for civilian goods (ex. school bus tires were being rationed, as was fuel). Some boys obviously joined the military before they graduated (my grandpa did that), and others gave up sports and possibly school altogether to take jobs in factories and other places where labor was in high demand.
It wouldn't surprise me. I've read enough of WWII yearbooks to know how many boys entered the service their senior year and weren't on the team after having done so well as juniors. You can also look at the data from the WWII state meets and see the drop off in performances after the 1930's. Gene Cole and his generation that were teens but too young to fight in WWII brought the standards back up after the war.

Last edited by JAVMAN83; 05-28-18 at 07:33 AM..
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  #57  
Old 05-28-18, 06:46 AM
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I love reading the history. Great job guys.
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Old 05-28-18, 07:35 AM
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I love reading the history. Great job guys.
Thank you. Doing research on these projects combines two of my favorite loves: Field & Track () and History. Statistics and their proper organization & display also appeals to the engineer in me.
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  #59  
Old 05-28-18, 03:56 PM
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Tim Stried responded to my email saying thanks for note and correction
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Old 05-28-18, 05:22 PM
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Tim Stried responded to my email saying thanks for note and correction
That is good, and good job on your part.

What I still find "interesting" is that they seem not to have consulted their own state meet programs which are correct. Hmmmm.
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