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  #31  
Old 12-18-18, 03:26 PM
wlpdrpat wlpdrpat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MPhillips View Post
No.

Blast double and run the wrestler into the bleachers with control = 2TD?
Of course that's the extreme, but that's how your "proposal" reads.
Actually, if you take the time to read the whole thing you would see that your extreme would not equal 2TD. The second sentence of the quote you extracted reads:

"To help clarify - wrestlers must wrestle until the whistle stops the action. If the action ends with control then it is a take down regardless of where the out of bounds line is or where the wrestlers feet are positioned."

It is very unlikely that a referee would not stop the action until it ended in the bleachers. The whole point is to stop wrestlers from using the boundary as a defense and instead force them to use folkstyle wrestling moves as a defense.

Here is a comparative example:

1. Defensive wrestler positioned on the edge is shot on by an offensive wrestler and provides no defense to the shot except to move himself out of bounds.

2. Defensive wrestler positioned on the edge is shot on by an offensive wrestler, sprawls, and uses a whizzer to defend the shot while moving out of bounds.

In situation #1 this is a passive wrestler that is using the boundary as a defense, i.e. he is not moving out of bounds while wrestling but essentially fleeing the mat to avoid points. In many cases the offensive wrestler ends up in a control position but out of bounds; it would have been a TD had they been in bounds.

In situation #2 this wrestler is defending the shot which moved him out of bounds and in this case the offensive wrestler typically doesn't finish in a position of control.

In both of these situations the defensive wrestler could be hit with stalling because he moves backward out of bounds.

My argument is that in example #1 just hitting the defensive wrestler with a stalling warning or point is not sufficient to deter this behavior, whereas giving the offensive wrestler the TD if they achieve control would force the defensive wrestler to actually wrestle to avoid giving up control.

My argument in example #2 is that hitting the defensive wrestler with stalling when they are actually wrestling and using the defensive moves that they are supposed to use to defend a shot is wrong.

Of course there are extreme cases that must be considered with any consideration of a rules change, e.g. how will this new rule be abused to gain an advantage. However, the direction of rules changes that are penalizing wrestlers isn't going to change behavior as fast as changes that reward wrestlers. If we were able to do both at the same time this would probably be the most effective at facilitating changes in behavior.
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  #32  
Old 12-18-18, 04:53 PM
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Refman Refman is offline
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Coach McCoy

Coach McCoy,

You said...if one wrestler is over powering another and pushes him out of bounds....its hard to call...NO ITS NOT. He pushed him OB....they want both to STAY on the mat...not push one out or pull one out....stay on the mat!

If one pushes one out....that one can choose to go left or go right....he chooses to go backwards...its on him.
Stay on the mat...dont push one out...dont run out...dont get pushed out...stay on the mat!
Simple uh??
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  #33  
Old 12-18-18, 05:19 PM
wjjsj wjjsj is offline
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For me I call stalling when it's there. If I can't truly tell whom did what I stay off of it. I talk so much to the wrestlers that it helps keeping from having to make the stall calls.

I wish the Force out rule for 1 point was implemented immediately. Someone asked how could any one like that or something of the sort. The whole point is that it will rarely be called. I've watched Freestyle duals where it barely happens because the wrestlers stay away from the edge and to Refman's point when they are near the edge they circle back in.

The best thing I learned many moons ago when I was taking my officiating course for basketball is when all else fails use common sense. I take this with me when I officiate football and wrestling.

People explain situations on matches but are typically bias on how they see it.
Officials do the best you can to get mat time, don't over officiate and get better at calling matches by having true passion and being teachable/coachable.
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  #34  
Old 12-18-18, 06:03 PM
MPhillips MPhillips is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wlpdrpat View Post
Actually, if you take the time to read the whole thing you would see that your extreme would not equal 2TD.
Fair enough.

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  #35  
Old 12-22-18, 10:44 PM
Lionattack Lionattack is offline
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If a wrestler works the head constantly snapping , trying to bring the head down for a front headlock and has scored off of it should it be called for stalling.

Do referees consider a snap from neutral to a headlock , then bringing it to the mat and spinning an offensive move? If wrestlers continues to work this and scores with it but never shoots should he be hit for stallng? Only works the head but is successful.

Just looking for thoughts on this.
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  #36  
Old 12-22-18, 11:14 PM
knuck97 knuck97 is offline
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So if I understand the rule right you can continue to allow your opponent to push back until you go out of bounds you technically could win cause your opponent would eventually start giving up stalling points? Call me crazy but that canít be right!!!!
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  #37  
Old 12-23-18, 12:40 PM
TakedownFor2 TakedownFor2 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Refman View Post
Its pretty simple....there are only 3 things that can now occur by rule in neutral going out of bounds:
1. Action took us there = Nothing
2. One pushes the other = Stalling
3. One backs up = Stalling

We have had this now for a few years in NCAA wrestling and the kids and the coaches ALL know its being called and rarely do we get grief for a stalling call on the edge...college kids are starting to learn....stay off the edge.

In high school...its new so parents and coaches are flipping out. Dont flip out...teach your kid to stay off the edge.
My premeet is...DONT BE THE ONE WITH YOUR BUTT TO THE OUT OF BOUNDS!
Only bad things will happen.
If red is facing out and greens butt is facing the OB.....refs are looking at, is red pushing him and if so...is green fighting to go left or right and stay in...if that is so...its on red for pushing. If green isnt trying to go left or right and ok with going back...its on green.
If both are wrestling...its...wrestling.
Simple uh???
I have not seen this being implemented unfortunately and now we head to brecksville and Iím sure weíll see it consistently. We talked about the rule with our kids so hopefully itís not news to them
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  #38  
Old 12-23-18, 11:26 PM
wlpdrpat wlpdrpat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lionattack View Post
If a wrestler works the head constantly snapping , trying to bring the head down for a front headlock and has scored off of it should it be called for stalling.

Do referees consider a snap from neutral to a headlock , then bringing it to the mat and spinning an offensive move? If wrestlers continues to work this and scores with it but never shoots should he be hit for stallng? Only works the head but is successful.

Just looking for thoughts on this.
Is the wrestler working in the center of the mat or are they backing up to the edge before working it? There is nothing that I am aware of that says a wrestler must "shoot" but they must be "working". I know a number of wrestlers that use this type of approach and I haven't seen them called for stalling because they don't stand still or back up in a passive manner - they are working to get a take down or to improve their position.
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  #39  
Old 12-23-18, 11:33 PM
wlpdrpat wlpdrpat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by knuck97 View Post
So if I understand the rule right you can continue to allow your opponent to push back until you go out of bounds you technically could win cause your opponent would eventually start giving up stalling points? Call me crazy but that canít be right!!!!
I think you have misunderstood the rule.

Continually backing up while being passive (blocking your opponent and not trying to improve your position) will get called for stalling. The push out that gets called for stalling is when a wrestler knows that his opponent is on the edge and intentionally pushes them out of bounds to stop the action rather than pulling them back toward the center. If you have been around a while then you have seen this - a wrestler decides to push his opponent out of bounds for whatever reason - that is stalling because they decided to stop the action rather than continuing to wrestle. It is completely different than a wrestler who backs up out of bounds. I have seen both called this season and in my opinion the referee made good calls. These rules should force wrestlers to keep wrestling rather than using the edge to get out of bounds.
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  #40  
Old 12-26-18, 08:44 PM
ArmBars67 ArmBars67 is offline
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So with the new stalling rules how could an official call stalling on top man out of the referees position in less than 5 seconds off the whistle?? Watched it this weekend at Blanchester. I donít see any consistency to how our officials are making these calls?
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  #41  
Old 12-26-18, 09:56 PM
UsedToBe103 UsedToBe103 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TakedownFor2 View Post
Iím pretty sure that in freestyle they would still award the caboose here as you are not allowed to push a wrestler out
Quote:
Originally Posted by MPhillips View Post
Have you ever seen it called like 'that?'
Yes
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  #42  
Old 12-26-18, 10:02 PM
UsedToBe103 UsedToBe103 is offline
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When college wrestling implemented this rule a few years ago, many people at first thought they were getting hosed, but eventually everyone learned to stay in the middle and not leave it up to the official, and the end result was more wrestling and less out of bounds stoppages. I personally like the way it is applied at the college level. It will take some getting used to for everyone. No officials are perfect, so like any rule, don't leave it up to the ref! Either stay in bounds or make it very clear that you are wrestling (action call).
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  #43  
Old 12-26-18, 10:11 PM
Jim Behrens Jim Behrens is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArmBars67 View Post
So with the new stalling rules how could an official call stalling on top man out of the referees position in less than 5 seconds off the whistle?? Watched it this weekend at Blanchester. I donít see any consistency to how our officials are making these calls?
The situation you are asking about has nothing to do with the subject of this thread.
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  #44  
Old 12-26-18, 10:36 PM
CoachHoversten CoachHoversten is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArmBars67 View Post
So with the new stalling rules how could an official call stalling on top man out of the referees position in less than 5 seconds off the whistle?? Watched it this weekend at Blanchester. I donít see any consistency to how our officials are making these calls?
Off the top of my head...

1) bottom man stands up off whistle, top man just hangs on and drives bottom man out of bounds to force him back down

2) bottom man stands up, top man jumps on back and throws leg in to initiate a potentially dangerous call and get a restart

3) top man immediately drops to an ankle off whistle and just hangs on for dear life to prevent an escape in late period situation
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  #45  
Old 12-27-18, 12:39 AM
wlpdrpat wlpdrpat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArmBars67 View Post
So with the new stalling rules how could an official call stalling on top man out of the referees position in less than 5 seconds off the whistle?? Watched it this weekend at Blanchester. I donít see any consistency to how our officials are making these calls?
I didn't see the particular match you are discussing, however, the only stalling call that I am aware of that can occur in that short of time on the top man is as follows:

Top man breaks down bottom man using a far or near ankle and tight waist. Top man traps the ankle/foot with his thigh. Once the foot/ankle is trapped with the thigh the top man has 5 sec (I think) to utilize it or be called for stalling. I believe this was implemented a number of years ago because it places unnecessary stress on the knee joint and there are no real moves that are initiated from this position, thus it is primarily used as a stalling tactic. They shortened the time to call this as stalling to protect the knee of the bottom wrestler.

Having said that, as previously mentioned, your inquiry isn't really related to this thread as it doesn't relate to the new stalling rules.
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  #46  
Old 12-27-18, 12:45 AM
wlpdrpat wlpdrpat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachHoversten View Post
Off the top of my head...

1) bottom man stands up off whistle, top man just hangs on and drives bottom man out of bounds to force him back down

2) bottom man stands up, top man jumps on back and throws leg in to initiate a potentially dangerous call and get a restart

3) top man immediately drops to an ankle off whistle and just hangs on for dear life to prevent an escape in late period situation
Nice ones!! I didn't think about these situations but you are absolutely correct. Any immediate and obvious attempt by the top wrestler to stop the action or to initiate a potentially dangerous to stop the action; especially late in the match when the score is tight will most likely result in a stalling call to force the top man to wrestle. I have seen this called almost immediately; when it is obvious stalling the ref doesn't have to wait any specific time frame before calling it.
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  #47  
Old 12-27-18, 07:07 AM
Jim Behrens Jim Behrens is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wlpdrpat View Post
Once the foot/ankle is trapped with the thigh the top man has 5 sec (I think) to utilize it or be called for stalling.
Actually if we read Rule 5-24-4b, it reads a little differently. What it says (and I learned this relatively recently) is "legally holds the heel to the buttocks while the defensive wrestler is broken down on the mat for MORE than five seconds".
I highlighted the word "more" because, to me, it means that 5 seconds is not the time most people have taken it to be.
This is the only place in the rules where 5 seconds is mentioned relative to stalling.
BTW, many assistant coaches will gladly help the official make this call by counting to five for them.
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  #48  
Old 12-27-18, 06:28 PM
wlpdrpat wlpdrpat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Behrens View Post
"legally holds the heel to the buttocks while the defensive wrestler is broken down on the mat for MORE than five seconds"
Thanks for the clarification on this. In my example I used trapping the foot with the thigh as this is probably the most common circumstance of confusion on stalling calls. If a wrestler has broken down his opponent using a tight waist and far ankle and then continued to hold the heel against the buttock with his hand; first it would be difficult to maintain the heel against the buttock continuously for 5 seconds with your hand and second if you did do this it would definitely look like stalling because you are not trying to improve your position - you are just hanging on the hips and putting unnecessary pressure on your opponents knee.

The more common circumstance is that the wrestler accidentally catches the foot with his thigh and then starts working up to get a bar or a wing or some other hold and is then called for stalling - their facial expression says it all - WTF!! As they typically have no idea what they have done wrong until someone explains it to them.
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  #49  
Old 12-30-18, 04:17 PM
Jim Behrens Jim Behrens is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wlpdrpat View Post
The more common circumstance is that the wrestler accidentally catches the foot with his thigh and then starts working up to get a bar or a wing or some other hold and is then called for stalling - their facial expression says it all - WTF!! As they typically have no idea what they have done wrong until someone explains it to them.
What I do when I see that happen is that I tell the wrestler to clear the leg. Like you say, most often they don't seem to know either the rule or what they are doing. About 99% of the time, they lift up and the leg is cleared.
Preventing problems is better than penalizing them.
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  #50  
Old 12-31-18, 03:57 AM
wlpdrpat wlpdrpat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Behrens View Post
Preventing problems is better than penalizing them.
If more ref thought like you the sport would be a lot more enjoyable. I'm never one to try to tell a referee their business (I refereed for enough years to know better), however, a lot of the younger referees appear to enjoy calling penalties rather than talking to the wrestlers to try to prevent problems. It may just be a bit of "young buck" syndrome - I know I went through that for a few months when I first started, however, some of them have been at it for a few years and are still way to eager to make calls.
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  #51  
Old 12-31-18, 08:21 AM
Lambeau Fields Lambeau Fields is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lionattack View Post
If a wrestler works the head constantly snapping , trying to bring the head down for a front headlock and has scored off of it should it be called for stalling.

Do referees consider a snap from neutral to a headlock , then bringing it to the mat and spinning an offensive move? If wrestlers continues to work this and scores with it but never shoots should he be hit for stallng? Only works the head but is successful.
"Shots" are not required. Some of my favorite wrestlers never take them, period, but instead are constantly working to improve and remain aggressive. As long as your aforementioned wrestler is staying in the middle, staying active, and not backing and blocking, there would be no reason to call him/her for stalling. That being said, the above match might be sort of boring if the only thing the kid has is a snap + go behind. He'd probably do him/herself a favor by working some unders/overs, pinch headlock to a trip, front headlock to a far ankle, etc.

Do referees consider a snap from neutral to a headlock , then bringing it to the mat and spinning an offensive move? Absolutely
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  #52  
Old 12-31-18, 08:59 AM
Lambeau Fields Lambeau Fields is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FunkRoll View Post
I just dont understand how people enjoy the push out rule...how is that enjoyable to watch and represent wrestling?!?!
I'll defer to Keith or Refman on this because I may not be up to date, but I thought Greco did away with the "pushout point and what Freestyle really has is a "step out" rule, not a "push out" rule.
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  #53  
Old 12-31-18, 03:18 PM
wlpdrpat wlpdrpat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lambeau Fields View Post
I'll defer to Keith or Refman on this because I may not be up to date, but I thought Greco did away with the "pushout point and what Freestyle really has is a "step out" rule, not a "push out" rule.
As of Fargo this past July the step out rule was still in force for both styles, however, that may change. The step out rule was intended to force wrestlers to work toward the center of the mat to keep them active and wrestling. The unfortunate side effect of creating the step out rule has been that wrestlers are now using it as a "push out" point when the action gets close to the edge. In fact, some wrestlers especially in the upper weight classes were using it almost exclusively as a method of scoring.

From what I understand they are looking at modifying the step out rule to exclude the straight "push out" unless the push out occurs in an effort to execute an offensive attack. Specifically, if the wrestler with his back to the edge is trying to circle to the center and his opponent drives him out of bounds without attempting to score a take down this would not score a step out and possibly may be consider "passivity" because the driving wrestler is intentionally trying to stop the action rather than trying to score.

However, this is just at the point of discussion from my understanding but all interested parties appear to be in agreement that the current "step out" rule is currently being abused in a way that it was never intended to be used.
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  #54  
Old 12-31-18, 03:25 PM
wjjsj wjjsj is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wlpdrpat View Post
As of Fargo this past July the step out rule was still in force for both styles, however, that may change. The step out rule was intended to force wrestlers to work toward the center of the mat to keep them active and wrestling. The unfortunate side effect of creating the step out rule has been that wrestlers are now using it as a "push out" point when the action gets close to the edge. In fact, some wrestlers especially in the upper weight classes were using it almost exclusively as a method of scoring.

From what I understand they are looking at modifying the step out rule to exclude the straight "push out" unless the push out occurs in an effort to execute an offensive attack. Specifically, if the wrestler with his back to the edge is trying to circle to the center and his opponent drives him out of bounds without attempting to score a take down this would not score a step out and possibly may be consider "passivity" because the driving wrestler is intentionally trying to stop the action rather than trying to score.

However, this is just at the point of discussion from my understanding but all interested parties appear to be in agreement that the current "step out" rule is currently being abused in a way that it was never intended to be used.
I like the step out rule better than having none at all. With that said, I like the modification that you have laid out as well.
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  #55  
Old 01-02-19, 04:28 PM
eyes r burning eyes r burning is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Behrens View Post
What I do when I see that happen is that I tell the wrestler to clear the leg. Like you say, most often they don't seem to know either the rule or what they are doing. About 99% of the time, they lift up and the leg is cleared.
Preventing problems is better than penalizing them.
Isn't this coaching a wrestler?

I'd say that's a coach's job to tell his wrestler to release the leg. This isn't a new rule. As an opposing coach, I would be more than a little disappointed in an official directing a specific athlete how to avoid an infraction that isn't dangerous.
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  #56  
Old 01-02-19, 06:00 PM
350zjk 350zjk is offline
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Just received the newest Bulletin from the OHSAA. Guess what? The entire bulletin goes into describing/explaining stalling. Wish I could post it. Maybe someone who is more tech savvy.
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  #57  
Old 01-02-19, 09:53 PM
Jim Behrens Jim Behrens is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eyes r burning View Post
Isn't this coaching a wrestler?

I'd say that's a coach's job to tell his wrestler to release the leg. This isn't a new rule. As an opposing coach, I would be more than a little disappointed in an official directing a specific athlete how to avoid an infraction that isn't dangerous.
Notice that I did not say that I tell a wrestler to release a leg. I tell them to clear the leg and this happens only when the leg gets trapped in the course of wrestling. If they are holding the leg in such a way that "release" is the word to be used, I would say nothing.
Read again how the situation was presented.
If the leg needs to be released, that is up to the coach.
The other thing I point out is to ask how you would feel if it was your wrestler in this situation but didn't know about it? Would you want your wrestler to be penalized?
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  #58  
Old 01-02-19, 09:55 PM
Jim Behrens Jim Behrens is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 350zjk View Post
Just received the newest Bulletin from the OHSAA. Guess what? The entire bulletin goes into describing/explaining stalling. Wish I could post it. Maybe someone who is more tech savvy.

Yours describes/explains it?? Mine is just a copy from the rule book. What a waste of time. I can read the rule book.
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  #59  
Old 01-03-19, 12:50 AM
Kevin Contos Kevin Contos is offline
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The more the ref can let the wrestlers know the situations the better. There is no question about wrestling positions if the ref allows the boys to know "that's 2 red", "you're still in bounds", "let him in", "nothing yet", "holding 2 green", "keep it leagal",etc. This allows for both wrestlers to know exactly what the ref is looking at and how he is interpreting the situations he is seeing without stopping any wrestling. Just my opinion.

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  #60  
Old 01-03-19, 09:07 AM
350zjk 350zjk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Behrens View Post
Yours describes/explains it?? Mine is just a copy from the rule book. What a waste of time. I can read the rule book.
Figured you knew my post was sarcastic.
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