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  #1  
Old 12-17-18, 11:55 AM
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Refman Refman is offline
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New NFHS Stalling rules

Its pretty simple....there are only 3 things that can now occur by rule in neutral going out of bounds:
1. Action took us there = Nothing
2. One pushes the other = Stalling
3. One backs up = Stalling

We have had this now for a few years in NCAA wrestling and the kids and the coaches ALL know its being called and rarely do we get grief for a stalling call on the edge...college kids are starting to learn....stay off the edge.

In high school...its new so parents and coaches are flipping out. Dont flip out...teach your kid to stay off the edge.
My premeet is...DONT BE THE ONE WITH YOUR BUTT TO THE OUT OF BOUNDS!
Only bad things will happen.
If red is facing out and greens butt is facing the OB.....refs are looking at, is red pushing him and if so...is green fighting to go left or right and stay in...if that is so...its on red for pushing. If green isnt trying to go left or right and ok with going back...its on green.
If both are wrestling...its...wrestling.
Simple uh???
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  #2  
Old 12-17-18, 12:49 PM
Coach M.Lane Coach M.Lane is offline
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Simple (and seemingly way easier on officials) to me would be if red pushes both of green's feet out of bounds, red gets a point.
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  #3  
Old 12-17-18, 01:37 PM
Cjlewis01 Cjlewis01 is offline
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I am 100 percent for a 1 point out rule. It takes the refs out of the equation and makes it 100 percent black and white. No more arguing.

I like the idea of the new rule but it is being enforced completely arbitrarily at the moment from what I've seen. Which is to be expected. I would rather the refs have less to think about during a sequence.
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  #4  
Old 12-17-18, 01:52 PM
Suplexer130 Suplexer130 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cjlewis01 View Post
I am 100 percent for a 1 point out rule. It takes the refs out of the equation and makes it 100 percent black and white. No more arguing.

I like the idea of the new rule but it is being enforced completely arbitrarily at the moment from what I've seen. Which is to be expected. I would rather the refs have less to think about during a sequence.
I can tell you from past experience reffing FS and GR that it's not that black and white. In a flurry, determining who stepped out first is a tough thing to do and at the HS level where replay isn't available it would be very controversial.
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  #5  
Old 12-17-18, 02:25 PM
cruiser_96 cruiser_96 is offline
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I dislike the fact that if Wrestler A pushes into Wrestler B while in the center of the mat, and Wrestler B continually moves backward, Wrestler B is (should be called for) stalling. But if Wrestler A continues to do the exact same thing and Wrestler B backs out of bounds, it's now Wrestler A who is stalling.

So technically, Wrestler B could be warned for stalling in the middle of the mat, and the same movement and progression continues in the same direction, and both go out of bounds, now it is Wrestler A who is stalling.

That seems odd to me.
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  #6  
Old 12-17-18, 02:31 PM
keithcarter keithcarter is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suplexer130 View Post
I can tell you from past experience reffing FS and GR that it's not that black and white. In a flurry, determining who stepped out first is a tough thing to do and at the HS level where replay isn't available it would be very controversial.
Typically seeing who steps out is easy, its when they start flipping and falling and wondering whose head hit first or whose two hands! That is when its tricky.

However i am all for a STEP OUT rule. Notice i didnt say push out!

Either way if you dont like the call then wrestle in the middle!
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  #7  
Old 12-17-18, 02:34 PM
Suplexer130 Suplexer130 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keithcarter View Post
Typically seeing who steps out is easy, its when they start flipping and falling and wondering whose head hit first or whose two hands! That is when its tricky.

However i am all for a STEP OUT rule. Notice i didnt say push out!

Either way if you dont like the call then wrestle in the middle!
If I back up to the line and attempt to lateral you and you circle to the side and step out to defend the lateral as is normal did I really promote wrestling? That's why I prefer the idea that if wrestling in anyway takes you out it's not stalling, but if one chooses to go out or runs them out it is.
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  #8  
Old 12-17-18, 02:35 PM
chinwhip chinwhip is online now
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This just happened to my kid this weekend. Moving forward like a freight train and the kids backing up so my kid shoves him into the stands. STALLING!!! Reward the freight train not the caboose. I wish it were like freestyle
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  #9  
Old 12-17-18, 02:39 PM
keithcarter keithcarter is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suplexer130 View Post
If I back up to the line and attempt to lateral you and you circle to the side and step out to defend the lateral as is normal did I really promote wrestling? That's why I prefer the idea that if wrestling in anyway takes you out it's not stalling, but if one chooses to go out or runs them out it is.
Agreed!!!

Some call me cruel but i say we equip everyone with a dog type shock collar and make the out of bounds the limit. You get close it starts beeping to let you know ! Ok now i have upset parents and PETA haha.
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  #10  
Old 12-17-18, 02:40 PM
TakedownFor2 TakedownFor2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chinwhip View Post
This just happened to my kid this weekend. Moving forward like a freight train and the kids backing up so my kid shoves him into the stands. STALLING!!! Reward the freight train not the caboose. I wish it were like freestyle
Iím pretty sure that in freestyle they would still award the caboose here as you are not allowed to push a wrestler out
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  #11  
Old 12-17-18, 02:46 PM
MPhillips MPhillips is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TakedownFor2 View Post
Iím pretty sure that in freestyle they would still award the caboose here as you are not allowed to push a wrestler out
Have you ever seen it called like 'that?'
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  #12  
Old 12-17-18, 02:47 PM
chinwhip chinwhip is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TakedownFor2 View Post
Iím pretty sure that in freestyle they would still award the caboose here as you are not allowed to push a wrestler out
Yes but this situation was different. The kids was almost jogging backwards. I understand the whole ďwrestle him outĒ thing but when a kid is on his bike and you help him out of bounds you shouldnít get dinged.
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  #13  
Old 12-17-18, 02:47 PM
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Pushes him into the stands"... yeah that's what we want...not.
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  #14  
Old 12-17-18, 02:51 PM
chinwhip chinwhip is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Refman View Post
Pushes him into the stands"... yeah that's what we want...not.
I also understand itís not what you want but it certainly isnít stalling
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  #15  
Old 12-17-18, 03:17 PM
jmog jmog is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chinwhip View Post
This just happened to my kid this weekend. Moving forward like a freight train and the kids backing up so my kid shoves him into the stands. STALLING!!! Reward the freight train not the caboose. I wish it were like freestyle
I didn't see said match, but if there was truly a "push into the stands" just be glad it was stalling and not unsportsmanlike conduct. Take the 'win' in that situation.
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  #16  
Old 12-17-18, 05:20 PM
wlpdrpat wlpdrpat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chinwhip View Post
I also understand itís not what you want but it certainly isnít stalling
Technically and for all intents and purposes it is stalling. The freight train knew where the out of bounds line is and intentionally drives his opponent beyond the line rather than dragging him back into the area designed for wrestling. Any effort taken to avoid wrestling or to prevent your opponent the opportunity to wrestle is stalling. The point of wrestling is to determine the better wrestler - not the better staller, which has been the case for years.

This is a clear tactic that has been used for years especially when time is short but the winning wrestler is only up by a point or two and doesn't feel confident to take a shot/throw and is also worried about letting his opponent take a shot/throw. Just drive him out of bounds a few times to run the clock down. That is the definition of stalling - I don't want to wrestle and I don't want to allow my opponent the opportunity to wrestle instead I'll just drive him out of bounds over and over until the clock runs out and hope they call my opponent for stalling.

They should also implement this from the referees position when the bottom man stands up and the top man drives him out of bounds to prevent the escape. There are some refs calling this but not all and it should be clearly defined that doing so is stalling rather than leaving it to the refs interpretation. I watched a finals match this weekend where the top wrestler is winning by a point and 7 times in a row the bottom man stands up and is driven forward out of bounds. On the 8th rep the ref finally called stalling but it never should have taken 7 reps to get to that point as it was obvious what the top wrestler was doing.

The freight train situation is completely different than driving him back to the line and then taking a shot on him to drive them out of bounds (that of course will be the new tactic with the new rules).

The freight train into the stands sounds more like sportsmanship penalty.

I think the new rules when understood and implemented will have a positive effect on keeping wrestlers in the center of the mat and wrestling.
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  #17  
Old 12-17-18, 05:38 PM
Cjlewis01 Cjlewis01 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suplexer130 View Post
I can tell you from past experience reffing FS and GR that it's not that black and white. In a flurry, determining who stepped out first is a tough thing to do and at the HS level where replay isn't available it would be very controversial.
I agree with what you're saying. But I think the scenario you're talking about happens significantly less than the current gray situations we have now. How often did that happen in FR or GR?

No rule is perfect. I even like the idea of the new rule. But it is not being called the same or even close to the same throughout the state in my opinion. That's my problem. I think the 1 point out rule makes the refs job easier.

Heck... I would say if they both go out at the same time award 0 or none. Especially if its wrestling action that led there. But that could add grey into the equation.

I dont think it should be called a push out rule since we dont want kids to be pushing kids out.

The refs I've talked to for the most part seemed to think it would be easier than the current situation.
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  #18  
Old 12-17-18, 07:33 PM
dion dion is offline
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Originally Posted by chinwhip View Post
I also understand itís not what you want but it certainly isnít stalling
Yeah, More like a TV
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  #19  
Old 12-18-18, 06:21 AM
4YourHead 4YourHead is offline
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Looks Simple Alright, looks like everyone is on the same page now. hahahaha
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  #20  
Old 12-18-18, 07:54 AM
Coach McCoy Coach McCoy is offline
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Refman,

Had a couple of situations this past weekend with this exact thing. Been very tough to call stalling in most cases, mainly because no one else was calling it. I know we have a change in interpretation on this call but it is going to take a while for officials to get used to the call (and Coaches, parents and athletes). As a coach I wish it was called more often, as an official I wish I could call it more often with everyone involved understanding it.

Does this make sense? I, as an official, am struggling with this call for sure. I understand the call if someone is pushing the opponent out and not letting him back in (easy call) but when one wrestler is over powering another wrestler and just pushes him out, hard call IMO. At the college level this is a much easier call because you have two kids who know what they are doing on the mat. At the high school level you have a pretty good miss match situation (wrestling knowledge if you will) with some/most high school wrestlers (meaning, the skill level has a huge disparity).

Hope I explained this well. For some reason I not sure I did. But, in any case, I am struggling with this call for sure. Hopefully as the season progresses I will get more consistent with it.

Coach McCoy (now an official) LOL
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  #21  
Old 12-18-18, 08:03 AM
Bigthrow45 Bigthrow45 is offline
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This happened a couple of times this weekend and bothered me...
My wrestlers were working forward- pushing, pulling, snapping...Just as we do in the middle of the mat with our hand-fighting...On the edge, our opponent makes zero effort to work back in but I was told we took the action out of bounds so it is on us. If the opponent makes zero attempt (straight back, not left to right at all) I don't feel we should have to change our hand-fighting/strategy just to "let" our opponent get back in bounds...Thoughts on this?
Also, does shooting someone off the mat count as "pushing?" One official told me that this weekend as well...They said it was not a "real" attempt and we took the action out of bounds...Seems like a difficult interpretation to make on whether our attack was "real" or not...

Last edited by Bigthrow45; 12-18-18 at 08:19 AM.
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  #22  
Old 12-18-18, 10:06 AM
BigArlie8 BigArlie8 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigthrow45 View Post
This happened a couple of times this weekend and bothered me...
My wrestlers were working forward- pushing, pulling, snapping...Just as we do in the middle of the mat with our hand-fighting...On the edge, our opponent makes zero effort to work back in but I was told we took the action out of bounds so it is on us. If the opponent makes zero attempt (straight back, not left to right at all) I don't feel we should have to change our hand-fighting/strategy just to "let" our opponent get back in bounds...Thoughts on this?
Also, does shooting someone off the mat count as "pushing?" One official told me that this weekend as well...They said it was not a "real" attempt and we took the action out of bounds...Seems like a difficult interpretation to make on whether our attack was "real" or not...
Very similar situation this weekend. Our kid was in on a single, had it in the air trying to trip to get the takedown, the hopping by the other wrestler wound up taking the action out of bounds and our guy got hit with stalling. Our guy was making attempts to trip and pull him back in bounds. I am really unsure what is going to happen this season with this new interpretation. Good luck to the refs.
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  #23  
Old 12-18-18, 10:08 AM
CoachMorgan CoachMorgan is offline
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In the same vein, if I push a guy to the edge then disengage and run back to the center every time. Isn't that stalling as well?
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  #24  
Old 12-18-18, 10:28 AM
FunkRoll FunkRoll is offline
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I just dont understand how people enjoy the push out rule...how is that enjoyable to watch and represent wrestling?!?! I think college has it down perfect...the guy with his back to the edge needs to work his butt off to stay in bounds or he gets dinged for stalling.
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  #25  
Old 12-18-18, 10:49 AM
cruiser_96 cruiser_96 is offline
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Originally Posted by FunkRoll View Post
I just dont understand how people enjoy the push out rule...how is that enjoyable to watch and represent wrestling?!?! I think college has it down perfect...the guy with his back to the edge needs to work his butt off to stay in bounds or he gets dinged for stalling.


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  #26  
Old 12-18-18, 10:54 AM
Cjlewis01 Cjlewis01 is offline
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Originally Posted by FunkRoll View Post
I just dont understand how people enjoy the push out rule...how is that enjoyable to watch and represent wrestling?!?! I think college has it down perfect...the guy with his back to the edge needs to work his butt off to stay in bounds or he gets dinged for stalling.
I dont enjoy watching someone get pushed out. I do enjoy circling center and wrestling in bounds.

How often do we see kids get pushed out in FR/GR? I dont remember seeing much in the Olympics/Fargo. I thought I would have seen more during the state freestyle tournament.

I think kids will pick up on it real quick.

I also hate arguing with officials and am not allowed to question their judgment in any way. Which is what bugs me about this rule. I'm seeing it called differently from match to match.
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  #27  
Old 12-18-18, 11:12 AM
chinwhip chinwhip is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FunkRoll View Post
I just dont understand how people enjoy the push out rule...how is that enjoyable to watch and represent wrestling?!?! I think college has it down perfect...the guy with his back to the edge needs to work his butt off to stay in bounds or he gets dinged for stalling.
Finally someone makes sense
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  #28  
Old 12-18-18, 11:23 AM
CoachHoversten CoachHoversten is offline
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My 2 cents as a certified official...the "old" stalling rule was not called consistently either, so I am not sure why people's reasoning for this rule being bad is "it isn't consistently being called".

When I took the officials class, we were taught the best way to tell if a wrestler was being pushed was "space"...if top guy or guy attempting to be offensive (on takedown attempt) is working and other guy is fleeing, there won't be much space between them (since working guy is trying to keep them tight), whereas if top guy is driving him out, that requires a "push away force" and creates separation.

I think the point of this emphasis is to eliminate some of the gray area, and more importantly, eliminate the endless dead time when clock stops every time people go out of bounds. I think when this takes effect (everyone is used to it, including officials who need time to adapt too), we will see shorter duration tournaments because matches won't take as long. It's amazing how much faster the clock runs down when it isn't constantly being stopped.
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Old 12-18-18, 11:58 AM
wlpdrpat wlpdrpat is offline
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Originally Posted by FunkRoll View Post
I just dont understand how people enjoy the push out rule...how is that enjoyable to watch and represent wrestling?!?! I think college has it down perfect...the guy with his back to the edge needs to work his butt off to stay in bounds or he gets dinged for stalling.
I think you have misinterpreted/misunderstood why people like the push out rule. I don't think anyone would use the term "enjoy" in relationship to this rule - to the contrary - the people who enjoy watching wrestling hate the fact that we need a push out rule but appreciate the fact that it was created because it attempts to reward the offensive wrestler more than just a stalling warning for their opponent.

You first must consider "why" people felt that this rule was needed. For the last few decades coaches have been teaching their wrestler to "edge wrestle" keeping their back to the edge to provide them a defensive escape route. How often do we see an offensive wrestler get nothing for their efforts because their opponent is skilled in keeping themselves positioned on the edge. The push out rule was initially created in an effort to reward the offensive wrestler in this situation. Unfortunately, with new rules comes new interpretations by the coaches on how to best utilize this as a means of scoring and voila we see wrestlers driving their opponents out of bounds to score the push out point.

Here is a simple way that we could eliminate the whole push out rule or even the need for stalling rules related to the edge.

Any move that is initiate from in bounds regardless of where it finishes is scored as if it completed in bounds. To help clarify - wrestlers must wrestle until the whistle stops the action. If the action ends with control then it is a take down regardless of where the out of bounds line is or where the wrestlers feet are positioned. This would force the defensive wrestler to wrestle and not give up position/control just because they have gone out of bounds and it would provide the appropriate reward for the offensive wrestler for initiating and completing a take down without forcing them to try to keep their feet in bounds. In the case of fighting off your back to get out of bounds an additional back point should be awarded when the defensive wrestler fights their way out of bounds to stop the action/prevent giving up the pin.

If this were the rule then stalling and push out rules would become a moot point and edge wrestling would become a thing of the past because it would offer very little in the way of benefit.

Most people that I know want to see "wrestling" being rewarded rather than "stalling" being penalized, which is the reason they prefer the "Push out rule" to the stalling penalty but that certainly doesn't mean they enjoy it.
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  #30  
Old 12-18-18, 12:49 PM
MPhillips MPhillips is offline
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Originally Posted by wlpdrpat View Post

Any move that is initiate from in bounds regardless of where it finishes is scored as if it completed in bounds. To help clarify - wrestlers must wrestle until the whistle stops the action. If the action ends with control then it is a take down regardless of where the out of bounds line is or where the wrestlers feet are positioned. This would force the defensive wrestler to wrestle and not give up position/control just because they have gone out of bounds and it would provide the appropriate reward for the offensive wrestler for initiating and completing a take down without forcing them to try to keep their feet in bounds. In the case of fighting off your back to get out of bounds an additional back point should be awarded when the defensive wrestler fights their way out of bounds to stop the action/prevent giving up the pin.
No.

Blast double and run the wrestler into the bleachers with control = 2TD?
Of course that's the extreme, but that's how your "proposal" reads.

Last edited by MPhillips; 12-18-18 at 01:01 PM.
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