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  #571  
Old 01-07-19, 02:50 PM
CoachHoversten CoachHoversten is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dion View Post
I had questions concerning a number of decisions/judgments he made during that match. Not sure if he was one of the better college officials I've seen.
Like the fact that his pin standard for time the scapula are in contact with the mat was what you would expect in a youth tournament and not college?
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  #572  
Old 01-07-19, 03:15 PM
dion dion is offline
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Originally Posted by CoachHoversten View Post
Like the fact that his pin standard for time the scapula are in contact with the mat was what you would expect in a youth tournament and not college?
True Dat! LOL!
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  #573  
Old 01-08-19, 02:23 AM
wlpdrpat wlpdrpat is offline
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Clarification of Rules/Violations and Penalties

Please assume the below described events are fictional and that they occurred as I have described them. I would like clarification on the call(s) if any that you would make for the given scenarios and penalties if any that you would impose.

Scenario #1: Wrestler A is in control on top near the boundary. He spins out to the front and places downward pressure on Wrestler B's head and kicks him out and backs away toward the center of the mat. As wrestler B is starting to stand up Wrestler A moves toward wrestler B places a hand on his head and shoulder and aggressively shoves wrestler B out of bounds knocking him to the ground.

At this point given the new stalling rule would this be considered stalling? Are most referees now calling this violation?

Scenario #2: Immediately following the above events as Wrestler B is getting up from the ground wrestler A moves toward wrestler B who is out of bounds and while both wrestlers are out of bounds Wrestler A places his hands similarly on B's head and shoulder and aggressively shoves wrestler B through one of the scorers into the bleacher seats that are adjacent to the mat but behind the scoring table. Wrestler A then turns and laughs with his coach and gives the coach a thumbs up.

What is the call and penalty for this?

Scenario #3: Wrestler A is on top in control and is running a near side cradle - suitcase lifts and places Wrestler B firmly on his back. Wrestler B is fighting off his back but is obviously in trouble. Wrestler A's coach yells let him out. Wrestler A releases the near side cradle and straddle sits (like a jockey on a horse) on Wrestler B while he is still on his back. Wrestler A aggressively throws a cross face finishing with his elbow on Wrestler B's cheek while wrestler B is still on his back. Wrestler A then climbs off of Wrestler B who is still on his back and kicks him out with one last shove to the head for good measure.

First, is hitting an aggressive cross face while your opponent is on their back a legal move? What is the call and penalty?

Second, is it legal to kick out a wrestler when they are on their back? What is the call and penalty?

Scenario #4: Wrestler A is in control with a deep half Wrestler B is fighting off his back. Referee calls the pin. Wrestler A as they are getting up from the mat hits the same cross face as described above finishing with a firm elbow into the cheek bone. As they get to their feet Wrestler A with doubled fists puffs his chest out at Wrestler B.

What is the call(s) and penalty(ies)?

Scenario #5: Wrestler A just tech fall pinned Wrestler B while physically abusing him as described above then refuses to shake Wrestler B's hand.

What is the call and penalty?
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  #574  
Old 01-08-19, 07:28 AM
CoachHoversten CoachHoversten is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wlpdrpat View Post
Please assume the below described events are fictional and that they occurred as I have described them. I would like clarification on the call(s) if any that you would make for the given scenarios and penalties if any that you would impose.

Scenario #1: Wrestler A is in control on top near the boundary. He spins out to the front and places downward pressure on Wrestler B's head and kicks him out and backs away toward the center of the mat. As wrestler B is starting to stand up Wrestler A moves toward wrestler B places a hand on his head and shoulder and aggressively shoves wrestler B out of bounds knocking him to the ground.

At this point given the new stalling rule would this be considered stalling? Are most referees now calling this violation?

Scenario #2: Immediately following the above events as Wrestler B is getting up from the ground wrestler A moves toward wrestler B who is out of bounds and while both wrestlers are out of bounds Wrestler A places his hands similarly on B's head and shoulder and aggressively shoves wrestler B through one of the scorers into the bleacher seats that are adjacent to the mat but behind the scoring table. Wrestler A then turns and laughs with his coach and gives the coach a thumbs up.

What is the call and penalty for this?

Scenario #3: Wrestler A is on top in control and is running a near side cradle - suitcase lifts and places Wrestler B firmly on his back. Wrestler B is fighting off his back but is obviously in trouble. Wrestler A's coach yells let him out. Wrestler A releases the near side cradle and straddle sits (like a jockey on a horse) on Wrestler B while he is still on his back. Wrestler A aggressively throws a cross face finishing with his elbow on Wrestler B's cheek while wrestler B is still on his back. Wrestler A then climbs off of Wrestler B who is still on his back and kicks him out with one last shove to the head for good measure.

First, is hitting an aggressive cross face while your opponent is on their back a legal move? What is the call and penalty?

Second, is it legal to kick out a wrestler when they are on their back? What is the call and penalty?

Scenario #4: Wrestler A is in control with a deep half Wrestler B is fighting off his back. Referee calls the pin. Wrestler A as they are getting up from the mat hits the same cross face as described above finishing with a firm elbow into the cheek bone. As they get to their feet Wrestler A with doubled fists puffs his chest out at Wrestler B.

What is the call(s) and penalty(ies)?

Scenario #5: Wrestler A just tech fall pinned Wrestler B while physically abusing him as described above then refuses to shake Wrestler B's hand.

What is the call and penalty?
Aside from the obvious frustration boiling out in those words, I will try to do my best to answer, though I have more experience as a coach than official (though I did take the class and officiate some)

Scenario #1: No escape should be given since you said "as B starts to stand up" and top man ("A") should be warned for stalling (or if already warned, awarded a penalty) since he is not attempting to wrestle nor letting B do the same.

Scenario #2: You said "while both wrestlers are out of bounds", which means the match is stopped and thus, there is no stalling. However, this can be one of two calls depending on the judgment of the official...unneccesary roughness which would be a penalty point (or 2 or DQ depending on # of penalties up to this point) or if deemed as bad as you made it, flagrant misconduct can be called, A loses the match and is removed from the rest of the competition. In the event that this happened at the conclusion of the match, meaning time expired and he does this, only a team point can be deducted however the flagrant can still stand and he can be kicked out of the event.

Scenario #3: I have seen aggressive cross faces called as penalties when wrestler is on his stomach (normal), so in the situation you described, if I am the official, it never gets to the point where he "lets him off his back". As soon as that happens, match is stopped, any NF points earned prior to the penalty are awarded, and B is awarded a penalty point (or 2 or DQ) for unnecessary roughness. As before, if deemed to be flagrant, that can be called too. In the event an official lets that go, no, intentionally letting someone off their back is not permitted and is a penalty as well, and any coach who would yell out loud to do so during a match is an idiot.

Scenario #4: As before, since the match has concluded, no change in the individual match result occurs, but a penalty is awarded and the point is deducted from the team. As before, if deemed flagrant, the wrestler can be tossed.

Scenario #5: I have no idea what "tech fall pinned" is...it is either a technical fall or an actual fall, it can't be both. If you are winning by 14 and take someone to their back and pin them, it is a fall, not a tech fall. Assuming you meant pinning them while in the process of going up 15, the penalty either occurred before or after the pin...if before (even just before), then the pin is wiped out because the match stops at the time of the penalty. However, any points earned prior to the penalty are still awarded so the tech fall would still stand....if the penalty occurred after the pin, then it is a team point deduction (effectively the same result as reducing a 6 point fall to a 5 point tech) and again, flagrant can be called....refusing to shake hands after the match is always unsportsmanlike conduct and would be a team point deduction (this is never flagrant)


****as an aside, as an official, the situations you describe don't just happen out of nowhere, there was probably tensions or animosity prior to these events occurring....I would never let it get to this situation knowingly...I would be talking to the wrestlers, warning them, etc***

Hope this helps and I am not far off in my responses
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  #575  
Old 01-08-19, 03:10 PM
wlpdrpat wlpdrpat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachHoversten View Post
Hope this helps and I am not far off in my responses
Thanks Coach! I didn't intend to have any frustration boiling out; as I said it is fictional. Those are the calls and penalties that I would have assumed in each scenario. RE: "tech fall pin" it is a pin at the point where had the pin not occurred it would have been a tech fall. I used that example to exemplify the point that one wrestler was obviously dominating the other.

Thanks again for your time it is very much appreciated.
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  #576  
Old 01-08-19, 03:15 PM
wjjsj wjjsj is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wlpdrpat View Post
Please assume the below described events are fictional and that they occurred as I have described them. I would like clarification on the call(s) if any that you would make for the given scenarios and penalties if any that you would impose.

Scenario #1: Wrestler A is in control on top near the boundary. He spins out to the front and places downward pressure on Wrestler B's head and kicks him out and backs away toward the center of the mat. As wrestler B is starting to stand up Wrestler A moves toward wrestler B places a hand on his head and shoulder and aggressively shoves wrestler B out of bounds knocking him to the ground.

At this point given the new stalling rule would this be considered stalling? Are most referees now calling this violation?

Scenario #2: Immediately following the above events as Wrestler B is getting up from the ground wrestler A moves toward wrestler B who is out of bounds and while both wrestlers are out of bounds Wrestler A places his hands similarly on B's head and shoulder and aggressively shoves wrestler B through one of the scorers into the bleacher seats that are adjacent to the mat but behind the scoring table. Wrestler A then turns and laughs with his coach and gives the coach a thumbs up.

What is the call and penalty for this?

Scenario #3: Wrestler A is on top in control and is running a near side cradle - suitcase lifts and places Wrestler B firmly on his back. Wrestler B is fighting off his back but is obviously in trouble. Wrestler A's coach yells let him out. Wrestler A releases the near side cradle and straddle sits (like a jockey on a horse) on Wrestler B while he is still on his back. Wrestler A aggressively throws a cross face finishing with his elbow on Wrestler B's cheek while wrestler B is still on his back. Wrestler A then climbs off of Wrestler B who is still on his back and kicks him out with one last shove to the head for good measure.

First, is hitting an aggressive cross face while your opponent is on their back a legal move? What is the call and penalty?

Second, is it legal to kick out a wrestler when they are on their back? What is the call and penalty?

Scenario #4: Wrestler A is in control with a deep half Wrestler B is fighting off his back. Referee calls the pin. Wrestler A as they are getting up from the mat hits the same cross face as described above finishing with a firm elbow into the cheek bone. As they get to their feet Wrestler A with doubled fists puffs his chest out at Wrestler B.

What is the call(s) and penalty(ies)?

Scenario #5: Wrestler A just tech fall pinned Wrestler B while physically abusing him as described above then refuses to shake Wrestler B's hand.

What is the call and penalty?
Hmmm...interesting. I will say that normally when I hear situations explained that there is usually some bias or some points that are left out.

HOWEVA, I'm guessing these questions are in reference to the WV Duals in Parkersburg. I have had the pleasure in reffing at this tournament before. My peer and I to this day still crack up at some of our experiences that we had there. Unfortunately, I can totally see all of the situations that you have described happening just like this. It amazes me that this stuff would happen. We saw similar type stuff and we were left scratching our heads.
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  #577  
Old 01-08-19, 04:35 PM
wlpdrpat wlpdrpat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wjjsj View Post
Hmmm...interesting. I will say that normally when I hear situations explained that there is usually some bias or some points that are left out.

HOWEVA, I'm guessing these questions are in reference to the WV Duals in Parkersburg. I have had the pleasure in reffing at this tournament before. My peer and I to this day still crack up at some of our experiences that we had there. Unfortunately, I can totally see all of the situations that you have described happening just like this. It amazes me that this stuff would happen. We saw similar type stuff and we were left scratching our heads.
A ref and clairvoyant...cool combination!
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  #578  
Old 01-10-19, 10:32 AM
wlpdrpat wlpdrpat is offline
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One more scenario if I may:

Wrestler A is on top in control with a deep half and far side leg encircled. Wrestler B is on his back in a near fall position. Wrestler A releases the leg and the half, then places his hand over the mouth and nose of Wrestler B and forces his head down into the mat.

Is placing the hand over the mouth and nose an illegal hold?
(I'm pretty certain that it is but I would like to confirm)

Thanks!
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  #579  
Old 01-11-19, 07:53 AM
jfide650 jfide650 is offline
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Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by wlpdrpat View Post
One more scenario if I may:

Wrestler A is on top in control with a deep half and far side leg encircled. Wrestler B is on his back in a near fall position. Wrestler A releases the leg and the half, then places his hand over the mouth and nose of Wrestler B and forces his head down into the mat.

Is placing the hand over the mouth and nose an illegal hold?
(I'm pretty certain that it is but I would like to confirm)

Thanks!
NFHS rule 7.1.5v Illegal holds/maneuvers: any hold/maneuver with pressure exerted over the opponent’s mouth, nose, throat, or neck that restricts breathing or circulation.

Last edited by jfide650; 01-11-19 at 07:55 AM. Reason: Misspelled word
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  #580  
Old 01-12-19, 11:49 AM
cobrakai cobrakai is offline
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Getting tired of slow refs calling slow pins or the match could have ended in the 1st period if you were in the right position.....if my son is on his back I want him pinned asap he and others need to know to stay off their back yet some refs let em flop for 30 seconds when they have been pinned ....call em quick & move on
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  #581  
Old 01-14-19, 12:25 PM
CoachHoversten CoachHoversten is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cobrakai View Post
Getting tired of slow refs calling slow pins or the match could have ended in the 1st period if you were in the right position.....if my son is on his back I want him pinned asap he and others need to know to stay off their back yet some refs let em flop for 30 seconds when they have been pinned ....call em quick & move on
That really isn't a question for "asking the ref", but I will address a couple of points anyways:

1) The average fan can not even give the official definition of a pin...we all know what it looks like, but you would be amazed how many people don't know what a scapula is, let alone tell the difference from the stands when they are pinned to the mat.

2) Wrestlers who are truly pinned are unable to "flop for 30 seconds"...a person who can flop around is not pinned.

3) But to play along, let's go with what you said:

-- First, being out of position CAN delay the calling of a pin or give the defensive wrestler the time needed to get out of the pinning combination. Therefore, every official strives (or should) to be in the best position possible. That said, wrestling changes very quickly, what looked like two guys just pummeling in the center of the mat can become a flurry very quickly...so if the ref is hustling to get into position, I would hardly think one can or should fault them for not being in the best position the instant the pin occurred.

-- The only thing I have noticed, and I am a coach and was an OHSAA certified official, is that some officials (would guess the newest ones) erroneously believe they must achieve a 5-count prior to calling a pin. Now, I am only assuming what is in their mind, but watching a match, I have seen officials standing counting to 5 with their arm, BEFORE ever getting down, and they do it consistently, meaning they never look for a pin until the 5-count. This is incorrect, and I would hope that a more experienced official would make sure to tell the official during their break to work to correct that.

Finally, most officials have no desire to be there longer than they "should" be; meaning no official is going to purposely not call pins so the matches and event go longer...their pay is not hourly (well, I suppose youth events are....so you won't see that in MS or HS at least). I promise you that an official out of position still has a better view than a fan halfway up the bleachers.
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  #582  
Old 01-14-19, 12:37 PM
wjjsj wjjsj is offline
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Agree with a lot you said with the exception of some officials thinking there needs to be a 5 count first. I've never heard of an official thinking this or observed one officiating this way.
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  #583  
Old 01-14-19, 01:53 PM
eyes r burning eyes r burning is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachHoversten View Post
That really isn't a question for "asking the ref", but I will address a couple of points anyways:

1) The average fan can not even give the official definition of a pin...we all know what it looks like, but you would be amazed how many people don't know what a scapula is, let alone tell the difference from the stands when they are pinned to the mat.

2) Wrestlers who are truly pinned are unable to "flop for 30 seconds"...a person who can flop around is not pinned.
Don't forget: "How long does he have to hold him there?!?!?"
2 seconds of continuous contact with the mat.
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  #584  
Old 01-14-19, 02:27 PM
dion dion is offline
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[QUOTE=CoachHoversten;7231729]That really isn't a question for "asking the ref", but I will address a couple of points anyway

2) Wrestlers who are truly pinned are unable to "flop for 30 seconds"...a person who can flop around is not pinned.


Just because a wrestler is "flopping" around on his back, does NOT mean the criteria for a fall can't be met.
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  #585  
Old 01-14-19, 02:40 PM
CoachHoversten CoachHoversten is offline
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[QUOTE=dion;7231839]
Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachHoversten View Post
That really isn't a question for "asking the ref", but I will address a couple of points anyway

2) Wrestlers who are truly pinned are unable to "flop for 30 seconds"...a person who can flop around is not pinned.


Just because a wrestler is "flopping" around on his back, does NOT mean the criteria for a fall can't be met.
Perhaps we had a different opinion of what he meant by "flopping around"....can scapula be pinned and they turn their head back and forth and flail their legs? Yes, but I don't consider that flopping....flopping around to me meant twisting and turning of the back/torso, but therein lies the issue with going by written text and not being there, or using video/pics...

And I have witnessed a couple of officials at a HS tournament I have worked for years doing this very thing (5 count before getting down). Drives me nuts, but I am glad to hear it doesn't happen often. I did not say it was correct, but it does happen.
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  #586  
Old 01-16-19, 09:03 AM
huskerdoc huskerdoc is offline
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Need help trying to explain to another middle school coach that to wrestle 245 you must weigh at least 205. It's not in the rule book but I know it is a rule. Please advise
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  #587  
Old 01-16-19, 09:22 AM
speedthatkills speedthatkills is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huskerdoc View Post
Need help trying to explain to another middle school coach that to wrestle 245 you must weigh at least 205. It's not in the rule book but I know it is a rule. Please advise
Or is it now 207 with the +2 pounds? I was wondering this myself.
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  #588  
Old 01-16-19, 09:33 AM
huskerdoc huskerdoc is offline
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Sorry, forgot about that. That is what I meant.
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  #589  
Old 01-16-19, 09:46 AM
jmog jmog is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huskerdoc View Post
Sorry, forgot about that. That is what I meant.
I am not a ref, but here is an old JH manual from OHSAA that explicitly says that rule. That part of the manual didn't change in the last 2 years.

https://www.ohsaa.org/sports/wr/boys/wrJrHighManual.pdf

it should be 207 now with the 2 lb allowance.

Last edited by jmog; 01-16-19 at 10:05 AM.
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  #590  
Old 01-16-19, 10:00 AM
dion dion is offline
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it should be 207.1 now with the 2 lb allowance.[/QUOTE]

Where did the .1 come from?
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  #591  
Old 01-16-19, 10:06 AM
jmog jmog is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dion View Post
it should be 207.1 now with the 2 lb allowance.
Where did the .1 come from?[/QUOTE]

Fixed it, you are right, no .1 added, thats a "commonly used amount" used by coaches to tell kids you have to weigh at least...in order to make sure they are over the minimum.

However, there is no .1 in the rule.
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  #592  
Old 01-16-19, 10:31 AM
dion dion is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmog View Post
I am not a ref, but here is an old JH manual from OHSAA that explicitly says that rule. That part of the manual didn't change in the last 2 years.

https://www.ohsaa.org/sports/wr/boys/wrJrHighManual.pdf

it should be 207 now with the 2 lb allowance.
So obviously, with the 2 lb. wt. allowance the minimum for 287 would now be 217, correct? I couldn't find this in writing.
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  #593  
Old 01-16-19, 10:37 AM
jmog jmog is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dion View Post
So obviously, with the 2 lb. wt. allowance the minimum for 287 would now be 217, correct? I couldn't find this in writing.
https://www.ohsaa.org/Portals/0/Spor...HSWRManual.pdf

1.72) High School weight classes shall be those weight classes adopted
by the NFHS: 106, 113, 120, 126, 132, 138, 145, 152, 160, 170,
182, 195, 220 and 285. The minimum weight for the 285 pound
class is 215 lbs (and is subject to the growth allowance).
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