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  #1  
Old 09-09-17, 08:21 AM
SOTT SOTT is offline
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Week Three Thread

Alright, folks: observations, results, takeaways, etc. What a beautiful day to run!
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  #2  
Old 09-09-17, 01:28 PM
jakeburg jakeburg is offline
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Lots of examples at Tiffin to prove the old saw that no matter how good your 1-2 punch is, your money-makers are 3-4-5.
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Old 09-09-17, 04:04 PM
EuclidandViren EuclidandViren is offline
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Tiffin is no longer the one and only mega Meet in Ohio. It's a slow decline the last 20 years. Tiffin is great and has great teams but there are other great meets in Ohio.
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Old 09-09-17, 06:22 PM
Seek Up Seek Up is offline
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I don't have the time to prove or disprove your theory, but, I believe, Tiffin is still a marquee meet. The field included 7 teams ranked in this week's coaches poll.
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  #5  
Old 09-09-17, 06:36 PM
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Jackson might be onto something with holding their Dave Ziesmer Invitational in the afternoon on this particular weekend. Kids could take the ACT (Jackson is a testing center) and still run today. It's a relatively flat course but not blazing fast.

Also, they had separate races for varsity and JV. I wish more meets still did it that way, but I understand how easy it is to run everyone at once with chip timing and get it over with.
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Old 09-10-17, 08:43 AM
starcatcher8 starcatcher8 is offline
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Most of the meets with the exception of just one invitational that we attend, have a separate varsity and JV race
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Old 09-10-17, 08:44 AM
starcatcher8 starcatcher8 is offline
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St. Xavier looked real tough at Tiffin. If Toledo Whitmer could find a number 3 and 4 man they would be real tough.
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  #8  
Old 09-10-17, 09:42 AM
psycho_dad psycho_dad is offline
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Seems like a new trend or maybe I'm just getting grumpy as I get old, but reporting results in two different documents TEAM and Individual is terrible. One set of results preferably with team results, then teams listed with each runners time and place grouped and then straight individual results all in one document. Grouping the teams results is not necessary, but it's helpful.

Woodridge Boys look good. Girls have some work to do.
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  #9  
Old 09-10-17, 10:48 AM
gatornation gatornation is offline
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Results from yesterday will take some investigating to understand placing as teams as ACT's were yesterday. Hawken looks good at Walsh but #8 Poland, #4 CVCA, and #7 Chagrin Falls all have one of their top 4 out. Not sure how much that played into results over at Tiffin or any other meet. Pollsters have their work cut out for them! Can someone explain to me how a private school with the reputation like Beaumont can have 3 studs, top 7 at Tiffin, but then have a #4 and #5 finish in the 80's and 90's?? Team was set up the same way last year.
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  #10  
Old 09-10-17, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by starcatcher8 View Post
Most of the meets with the exception of just one invitational that we attend, have a separate varsity and JV race
It's often just the meets with lots of teams or smaller meets with mega-sized schools that still run them separate. Only 2 of the 8 meets on our schedule separate them, not even Boardman since my school is DIII.
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  #11  
Old 09-10-17, 12:19 PM
peebles peebles is offline
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Salem only placed fourth at Walsh on Saturday even though their two sophomores ran #3 and #6. A very young team with two freshmen and no seniors in the top seven. A lot of potential for next year, although they still have a basic core of runners that won the DII district at Trumbull last year. Inexperience probably also hurt them last year as they could have qualified for State but ran much worse times at Regional than at the District. They beat Poland at the District, but Poland qualified for State and Salem did not.
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Old 09-10-17, 12:42 PM
xcrunner69 xcrunner69 is offline
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St. X looked really strong at Tiffin, and if Whitmer and Pickerington North can find 4-5 runners, they will be very dangerous. And does anybody know why Solon has yet to run their A team yet?
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  #13  
Old 09-10-17, 12:48 PM
Altor Altor is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Slippery View Post
It's often just the meets with lots of teams or smaller meets with mega-sized schools that still run them separate. Only 2 of the 8 meets on our schedule separate them, not even Boardman since my school is DIII.
As long as the course can handle the extra runners, I try to encourage meet management to NOT run JV races. It was useful 20 years ago so you didn't have to re-rank the non-scorers. The computers take care of that easily these days.
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  #14  
Old 09-10-17, 01:24 PM
galesxc galesxc is offline
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Single race events are useful early in the season, allowing the kids to initially sort themselves in head-to-head competition.

However, after the first couple of meets, separate races give me a better opportunity to watch, evaluate and provide coaching feedback to all our guys.

In addition, I think many guys compete better (have a better opportunity to learn to compete) when they are in race, near the front, rather than buried in the middle of several hundred other guys.

Also, every kid should have an opportunity to race to best of their ability. Put 4or500 kids in a race and there will be choke points where middle-pack runners will come to a near standstill, waiting/fighting for their turn to move on.
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  #15  
Old 09-10-17, 01:49 PM
madman madman is offline
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Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by galesxc View Post
Single race events are useful early in the season, allowing the kids to initially sort themselves in head-to-head competition.

However, after the first couple of meets, separate races give me a better opportunity to watch, evaluate and provide coaching feedback to all our guys.

In addition, I think many guys compete better (have a better opportunity to learn to compete) when they are in race, near the front, rather than buried in the middle of several hundred other guys.

Also, every kid should have an opportunity to race to best of their ability. Put 4or500 kids in a race and there will be choke points where middle-pack runners will come to a near standstill, waiting/fighting for their turn to move on.
Completely agree with everything here.
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  #16  
Old 09-10-17, 02:08 PM
SOTT SOTT is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by galesxc View Post
Single race events are useful early in the season, allowing the kids to initially sort themselves in head-to-head competition.

However, after the first couple of meets, separate races give me a better opportunity to watch, evaluate and provide coaching feedback to all our guys.

In addition, I think many guys compete better (have a better opportunity to learn to compete) when they are in race, near the front, rather than buried in the middle of several hundred other guys.

Also, every kid should have an opportunity to race to best of their ability. Put 4or500 kids in a race and there will be choke points where middle-pack runners will come to a near standstill, waiting/fighting for their turn to move on.
I'll second what Madman said. Great points.
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  #17  
Old 09-10-17, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by SOTT View Post
I'll second what Madman said. Great points.
I'll third it. Galesxc hit the nail on the head.
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  #18  
Old 09-10-17, 03:42 PM
billcarson billcarson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_dad View Post
Seems like a new trend or maybe I'm just getting grumpy as I get old, but reporting results in two different documents TEAM and Individual is terrible. One set of results preferably with team results, then teams listed with each runners time and place grouped and then straight individual results all in one document. Grouping the teams results is not necessary, but it's helpful.

Woodridge Boys look good. Girls have some work to do.
Kuddos to Woodridge, your teams always look good, but how about NDCL? They have a really nice 5 man pack, with I believe no seniors. The Boardman region just keeps getting tougher. Maybe NDCL should be this weeks #1
ranked D2 boys team
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  #19  
Old 09-10-17, 03:54 PM
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Not sure if anyone was missing from the other main DIII boys teams, but East Canton made a pretty big statement with a 100 pt. win over Ft. Loramie and Maplewood in the DIII race at Tiffin.

Last edited by Mr. Slippery; 09-10-17 at 08:10 PM..
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  #20  
Old 09-10-17, 05:16 PM
Coach Perkins Coach Perkins is offline
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I totally understand the points made for having separate varsity and JV races and they are valid.
Having said that, as a coach I really like the smaller invites where you can race all of your athletes together. To me it makes it more like a team atmosphere and the family environment we are striving for. Also agree this only works at the smaller invites where the middle runners won't be boxed in and have to fight through for position.
Our schedule is pretty much split 50/50 between the 2 options.
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  #21  
Old 09-10-17, 08:30 PM
jakeburg jakeburg is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Slippery View Post
Not sure if anyone was missing from the other main DIII boys teams, but East Canton made a pretty big statement with a 100 pt. win over Ft. Loramie and Maplewood in the DIII race at Tiffin.
Correction of my previous post, in case anyone saw it before I corrected my math:


Looking just at the D3 boys race, and extracting only the NE region teams in the Tiffin race, the score would look like this:

Mapleton 62, Smithville 57, Maplewood 56, and East Canton 40. Throw McDonald into the mix, and you have a very interesting race come Oct. 28.

As always, that 4-5 spot is crucial.

Do you other coaches talk to your 4-5 coaches about that stuff specifically? We coach it to the whole team, but we don't single out our 4-5 guys too much in particular. I'm not sure it would help them, but then you think of a basketball coach who would pull his 4th or 5th man off the court if he blew a few assignments and coach the kid to set him straight. Running is obviously different, but heck, it's still a sport. Do we help the kid or hurt the kid by not helping him or her understand we need him or her to compete, straight up, against another team's specific position runner?

Just wondering out loud...

Last edited by jakeburg; 09-10-17 at 08:47 PM..
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Old 09-10-17, 11:05 PM
madman madman is offline
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I guess that might help if the athletes didn't understand it already or you felt they weren't already giving it their best, but I think most runners are painfully aware of the situation if they are the #4 and #5 runners. Putting additional focus on the desired outcome is probably the last thing I would do.
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Old 09-11-17, 07:52 AM
LoveCrossCountry LoveCrossCountry is offline
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I have been going to the McGowan Invitational to watch two kids of mine now for 9 years (middle school and high school). This Saturday, the course was in the best shape ever. I have never seen it that dry there. Nice run by Matt Scrape (15:12) in the boys D1 race.
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  #24  
Old 09-11-17, 08:20 AM
Rohbino Rohbino is offline
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It looks as if Arjun is getting stronger as well.
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  #25  
Old 09-11-17, 10:12 AM
LoveCrossCountry LoveCrossCountry is offline
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It looks as if Arjun is getting stronger as well.
Yep! I never worry about him. He is so talented.
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  #26  
Old 09-11-17, 10:22 AM
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I guess that might help if the athletes didn't understand it already or you felt they weren't already giving it their best, but I think most runners are painfully aware of the situation if they are the #4 and #5 runners. Putting additional focus on the desired outcome is probably the last thing I would do.
That's generally how I see it as well. The runners who care generally put enough pressure on themselves to perform. No need to create additional pressure. That's the approach I'd take with most kids.

However, if it's a case where the kid would benefit from having the situation simplified, it might be worth a "heart to heart." For example, the best kid I ever worked with would get freaked out when looking at a heat sheet and seeing anyone with a 1600 seed time within 15 seconds. I'd tell the kid, "I think you can finish in "x" place," and the kid would usually go out and do it. The placing was always way better than compared to the number of entrants whose seed times freaked the kid out.

If jakeburg is confident that there are only a couple teams out there that can deny his team a state berth, then it might be worth telling those 4 and 5 runners, "All you have to do is beat the #4 and #5 runners from 'teams X and Y.' Don't worry about anyone else."

When it comes to humans and especially HS kids, there is no one size fits all.
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Old 09-12-17, 04:59 PM
psycho_dad psycho_dad is offline
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Originally Posted by billcarson View Post
Kuddos to Woodridge, your teams always look good, but how about NDCL? They have a really nice 5 man pack, with I believe no seniors. The Boardman region just keeps getting tougher. Maybe NDCL should be this weeks #1
ranked D2 boys team
If you look at common opponents, Woodridge looks better than NDCL. However, NDCL looked outstanding at Tiffin. Tough to argue the 1-5split. I'd probably put Unioto and NDCL at the top, followed by Woodridge.
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Old 09-12-17, 07:37 PM
billcarson billcarson is offline
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I would agree with you about NDCL and Woodridge being at #1. Unioto runs at places I'm not familiar with, but it seems they like the fast courses.
Rocky River may have the best balance of front runners and depth, but they seldom race varsity.
The Spartan race will help compare most of the regions D2 teams, although I heard Bay and River will race Lexington at Galion.
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  #29  
Old 09-13-17, 10:02 AM
madman madman is offline
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The end is near. How much longer until we're running on Tartan surfaces in the fall?
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Old 09-13-17, 11:11 AM
yj_runfan yj_runfan is offline
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The end is near. How much longer until we're running on Tartan surfaces in the fall?
Can't even call it "track on grass".
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