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  #1  
Old 08-25-17, 10:03 PM
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Lancermania Lancermania is offline
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St. Xavier's 37 second 1-7 split tonight

St. Xavier won the Moeller Primetime Invitational under the lights tonight with a 37 second 1-7 split. Wow!

http://live.finishtiming.com/#/resul...-xc/results/10
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  #2  
Old 08-28-17, 11:20 AM
yj_runfan yj_runfan is offline
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That's an interesting stat but I have never understood how it leads to winning. The last place team could have had a 20 second 1-7 split. What would that mean? Do you really want your top runners to slow down so your team split is smaller? Should a Dustin Horter stop before the finish line and wait for the rest of his team?
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Old 08-28-17, 07:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yj_runfan View Post
That's an interesting stat but I have never understood how it leads to winning. The last place team could have had a 20 second 1-7 split. What would that mean? Do you really want your top runners to slow down so your team split is smaller? Should a Dustin Horter stop before the finish line and wait for the rest of his team?
Did Lancermania edit his original post because I don't see where he says anything at all about X's top runners slowing down to achieve that split. St. X won the meet so they did what they had to do to win. And maybe the last place team did have a 20 second split but they were all in the 21 minute range. I think we can all agree that a 37 second split in the 15-16 minute range will beat a 20 second split in the 21 minute range.
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Old 08-28-17, 07:57 PM
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X had 13 runners finish under 18 minutes, that's pretty impressive for the first meet of the year. Especially given the fact they historically don't run their top runners together in the same meet this early in the season.
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Old 08-28-17, 08:33 PM
psycho_dad psycho_dad is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yj_runfan View Post
That's an interesting stat but I have never understood how it leads to winning. The last place team could have had a 20 second 1-7 split. What would that mean? Do you really want your top runners to slow down so your team split is smaller? Should a Dustin Horter stop before the finish line and wait for the rest of his team?
The 1-5 or 1-7 split is usually a good indicator of what your 3-7 are doing and not so much what #1 is doing. You win at 5. I is also advantageous for teammates to run together, because it is easier to run with someone than not to.

Horter should not stop before the finish line. What he should do is run with teammates as long as he can and pull them and push them and teach them. Winning by a minute and a half is useless when your team comes in second or third or fourth. Help your teammates out. If he must win, then do it in the last 1600 or 800 or 300.. Winning a race is not always the best thing for the team. 1+12 = 13.... 3+7 = 9... 9 is better than 13.

Say the team goes 1+15+35+45+ 55 = 155. What if he helps push his teammates to 5+10+30+40+50? That's much better. 20 points by my crude math. Do that enough and the team gets better and better and better.
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  #6  
Old 08-28-17, 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted by PantherVOR View Post
X had 13 runners finish under 18 minutes, that's pretty impressive for the first meet of the year. Especially given the fact they historically don't run their top runners together in the same meet this early in the season.
They also had 5 under 18:00 in the JV race, fwiw. Also, it's been quite a while (nearly a decade) since they split up their top runners.
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  #7  
Old 08-28-17, 09:51 PM
fanofrunning fanofrunning is offline
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Originally Posted by psycho_dad View Post
The 1-5 or 1-7 split is usually a good indicator of what your 3-7 are doing and not so much what #1 is doing. You win at 5....
Horter should not stop before the finish line. What he should do is run with teammates as long as he can and pull them and push them and teach them. Winning by a minute and a half is useless when your team comes in second or third or fourth. Help your teammates out. If he must win, then do it in the last 1600 or 800 or 300.. Winning a race is not always the best thing for the team.

1+12 = 13.... 3+7 = 9... 9 is better than 13.
.......
I know I'm old, but is that math right? That aside, it does bring up a coaching issue: Let the big dog run, or .....what? How long should Horter hold back? Should he do that at all? I'm interested to see what the coaches opine.
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  #8  
Old 08-28-17, 10:13 PM
psycho_dad psycho_dad is offline
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fat finger typing. I meant to type a 2 not 3. I should proof read. 2+7 = 9. There , I got it. I feel so cc609.
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  #9  
Old 08-29-17, 08:52 AM
yj_runfan yj_runfan is offline
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I get pack running early in a race.

I would like to listen in on the conversation where the coach convinces his top runners to run less than their best because it might make the number 5 run faster. Most of the runners I have known would have a hard time buying into that.
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  #10  
Old 08-29-17, 09:04 AM
Taco MacArthur Taco MacArthur is offline
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Where is anyone saying that?
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  #11  
Old 08-29-17, 10:26 AM
yj_runfan yj_runfan is offline
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Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
Where is anyone saying that?
Did you read the whole thread? psycho is saying it's better for a runner capable of winning the race to hold back and help a teammate run faster.

Winning a race is not always the best thing for the team. 1+12 = 13.... 3+7 = 9... 9 is better than 13.

Say the team goes 1+15+35+45+ 55 = 155. What if he helps push his teammates to 5+10+30+40+50? That's much better. 20 points by my crude math. Do that enough and the team gets better and better and better.


I find it hard to believe you would tell a runner to not win an individual district, regional or state title for the good of the team.
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  #12  
Old 08-29-17, 10:45 AM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_dad View Post
The 1-5 or 1-7 split is usually a good indicator of what your 3-7 are doing and not so much what #1 is doing. You win at 5. I is also advantageous for teammates to run together, because it is easier to run with someone than not to.

Horter should not stop before the finish line. What he should do is run with teammates as long as he can and pull them and push them and teach them. Winning by a minute and a half is useless when your team comes in second or third or fourth. Help your teammates out. If he must win, then do it in the last 1600 or 800 or 300.. Winning a race is not always the best thing for the team. 1+12 = 13.... 3+7 = 9... 9 is better than 13.

Say the team goes 1+15+35+45+ 55 = 155. What if he helps push his teammates to 5+10+30+40+50? That's much better. 20 points by my crude math. Do that enough and the team gets better and better and better.
Horter should slow down and run wit teammates for awhile? Great advice.
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  #13  
Old 08-29-17, 12:13 PM
mathking mathking is offline
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Originally Posted by ccrunner609 View Post
Horter should slow down and run wit teammates for awhile? Great advice.
Depends on the race. If he is going to win anyway, it might well be worthwhile from a team standpoint to pull/push some teammates for the first part of a race. He will probably have races where there is no one in the field capable of beating him. Those can be a good time to both help teammates and try different race strategies for himself.

As for the conversation, I have had a number one runner not run all out at the district race in order to keep the number two, three and four runners from going out too fast. Also to keep the number one runner from excessive fatigue before the state meet. Honestly I am more mystified by coaches that have runners crush every race all season long, only to progressively come back to the pack.
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  #14  
Old 08-29-17, 12:49 PM
yj_runfan yj_runfan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mathking View Post
Depends on the race. If he is going to win anyway, it might well be worthwhile from a team standpoint to pull/push some teammates for the first part of a race. He will probably have races where there is no one in the field capable of beating him. Those can be a good time to both help teammates and try different race strategies for himself.

As for the conversation, I have had a number one runner not run all out at the district race in order to keep the number two, three and four runners from going out too fast. Also to keep the number one runner from excessive fatigue before the state meet. Honestly I am more mystified by coaches that have runners crush every race all season long, only to progressively come back to the pack.
Why would your number one get more fatigued at district than the rest of your runners? Why not hold out your number five since his finish is more critical to the team?
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  #15  
Old 08-29-17, 06:12 PM
mathking mathking is offline
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I have had a decent number of runners be individual district champions over the years. At least four of those times that runner was a clear favorite and we told them not race too hard. Winning by five or ten seconds is as good as winning by 45, and a lot less effort. In 2010 at the district race we had a plan for 1-2 to run together and 3-4-5 to run together. We knew that having 1 and 2 run together might let another kid win the race. One ended up pulling two along, and they ended up 2-3 in the race. The number one might have won. Our number 3 might have gotten as high as 4th if he had pressed. Instead he got 6th, but pulled 4 and 5 along to 7th and 8th place. We scored 26 points and won easily as a team. More importantly, from our perspective, no one exhausted themselves. Our kids ran relatively much better at the state meet than their district meet competitors on the average.

None of this means we are constantly telling kids not to race hard. But we do try to pay attention to how often they do. When we have a runner with podium potential, we try hard to make sure they aren't flat by the end of the season.
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Old 08-29-17, 08:16 PM
fanofrunning fanofrunning is offline
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Originally Posted by mathking View Post
Depends on the race. If he is going to win anyway, it might well be worthwhile from a team standpoint to pull/push some teammates for the first part of a race. He will probably have races where there is no one in the field capable of beating him. Those can be a good time to both help teammates and try different race strategies for himself.

As for the conversation, I have had a number one runner not run all out at the district race in order to keep the number two, three and four runners from going out too fast.
I am enjoying this thread and the opinions expressed. Horter was a freshman when my kid was a senior and I saw him race a number of times. I remember thinking 'that kid just goes out too fast'. It would be very interesting to watch him (or another big dog) go out at 4:55 vs. 4:40, which he currently does. He could potentially help his teammates, as has been suggested. It would also lead to a different racing strategy. Hold his position for the inevitable second mile slowdown and then just drop the hammer? Or how about the old school way, run 3 consecutive 4:50's and ho-hum your way to a not too shabby 15:02 5K? Options.
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Old 08-29-17, 09:07 PM
psycho_dad psycho_dad is offline
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I coach girls MS soccer and some of the girls and a parent or two did not seem to understand why I do not put my best goalie in goal every game all game and put my best right forward at right forward all the time. It's because losing a game 1 - 0 is a loss and winning a game 4-2 is a win.

Woodridge beat Cloverleaf in girls track last season in both the dual meet we had with them and the conference championship. Both meets came down to the 4x1600. Beautiful competition. Why didn't both teams just put their best kids in all their best events? Why might one team put a relay team out there in the 4x100 that is not the best they could put out there? It's because winning the meet is the objective and not the 4x100.

Look at the state results for CC last year. Gap 1-5 matters and #5 is more important than #1. Why might some teams stress team tactics over an each man for himself approach? Because winning is better than 15th in the team standings. It's insane for an individual wo win a race by over a minute when his or her teammate is only 30 seconds off of improving their place by 20. Win by one second and help the team or maybe lose by one second and improve the team. I did it many times. The goal is to win as a team.

Lets feed our top scorer in basketball all game so he can lead the conference in scoring and lose every game.

The teams that get it, win championships. Too many teams and coaches just don't understand that objective of the sport.
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  #18  
Old 08-29-17, 10:37 PM
CoventryTrackXCguy CoventryTrackXCguy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_dad View Post
I coach girls MS soccer and some of the girls and a parent or two did not seem to understand why I do not put my best goalie in goal every game all game and put my best right forward at right forward all the time. It's because losing a game 1 - 0 is a loss and winning a game 4-2 is a win.

Woodridge beat Cloverleaf in girls track last season in both the dual meet we had with them and the conference championship. Both meets came down to the 4x1600. Beautiful competition. Why didn't both teams just put their best kids in all their best events? Why might one team put a relay team out there in the 4x100 that is not the best they could put out there? It's because winning the meet is the objective and not the 4x100.

Look at the state results for CC last year. Gap 1-5 matters and #5 is more important than #1. Why might some teams stress team tactics over an each man for himself approach? Because winning is better than 15th in the team standings. It's insane for an individual wo win a race by over a minute when his or her teammate is only 30 seconds off of improving their place by 20. Win by one second and help the team or maybe lose by one second and improve the team. I did it many times. The goal is to win as a team.

Lets feed our top scorer in basketball all game so he can lead the conference in scoring and lose every game.

The teams that get it, win championships. Too many teams and coaches just don't understand that objective of the sport.
For teams that have significant gaps between their number 1's and the rest, wouldn't it make better sense to just let #1 take off and be #1, and then just have the remaining 2-5/6 run as a pack-at least to start? Now obviously my comets did not even execute that last Saturday at Glen Oak (which is fine, we just wanted to get a baseline of where everyone is at before we determined our grouping strategy). But I think that is what we may want to work towards. Not sure about now, but it certainly would have made sense to let #1 take off two years ago, in the days when we had our state qualifier, Tucker Pearce.
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  #19  
Old 08-30-17, 04:20 AM
Altor Altor is offline
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Originally Posted by CoventryTrackXCguy View Post
For teams that have significant gaps between their number 1's and the rest, wouldn't it make better sense to just let #1 take off and be #1, and then just have the remaining 2-5/6 run as a pack-at least to start?
It all depends on the math, but generally this is not true for one very important reason: it is much easier to drop or add points in the middle of the pack than it is in the front or the back.
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Old 08-30-17, 08:00 AM
psycho_dad psycho_dad is offline
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Coventry; There are 8 weeks worth or races where you can work on team tactics and race strategies. If you have that one special kid that has a chance to make it through the tournament when the rest of the team does not have a chance, then you can let him fly at the District meet. Give him one or two meets in the regular season to fly if you feel he needs it, but, IMO, it's a team sport and you need to work on the team. Looking at your team, I would adjust your schedule and run less competitive meets where you aren't up against the Hudson's, $V$M's etc of the world. See if you can get a dual meet with Roosevelt where your kids really matter in the outcome with a team that is close in ability. Have some success instead of getting your head kicked in. Run smaller invites were your team is in a fight and not drowning. Workouts will become more productive as there is some success associated with it. See if you can get into the JV race of some invites instead of the varsity and have your kids running against kids that are at the same ability level at this point. As you improve, you adjust and go to more competitive meets. See if you can host a meet where you actually invite teams that you can be competitive with. Get your kids used to finishing in the top half and not the bottom. Adjust it each year as you build the program.

I see you have a girls team. That's a step in the right direction.
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  #21  
Old 08-30-17, 08:03 AM
yj_runfan yj_runfan is offline
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Psycho: if they would have run a combined race when you ran and your team had squeaked into the meet would you have given up your title in order to help your team finish 8th instead of 12th?

Last edited by yj_runfan; 08-30-17 at 08:24 AM..
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Old 08-30-17, 09:38 AM
psycho_dad psycho_dad is offline
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My team missed by one or two places my freshman and my senior years. I would have given up my individual title just to get my team to the state meet. I felt that way back then too. At the District meet (Regional = now) I ran with my teammate Bob Henes through the 2 mile helping him to a second place finish behind me. Something we felt at the time was necessary to have 2 of us in the top 5. The strength of our team was our 3-7, but they ran poorly. I took off the last mile and won by a lot. It was meaningless once I learned my team did not qualify. I went home crushed that day. Probably the biggest failure in my running career. I honestly think of it every year. Had my team made it, I would have raced whatever strategy my coach thought was best for the team. Personally, I would have given up my title to improve my teams place from 12th to 8th. No question. (And if they had run it combined, I would have won that race too)

Seriously, if I had been in the team race, my strategy would have been much different. I took the race out hard in hopes of dropping as many people as possible so I could see who I had left to deal with. One guy with two or three pests. At that point, I let him take the lead and I would only throw in some surges if I felt others were getting too close to us and to let him know that I was not giving up and he was going to have to deal with me all race. I really pressured him to the 2 mile mark. Then, I dropped back and gave him the lead and let him extend it and relax. I was not a pace runner and he seemed to want to settle into a pace. I let him get comfortable and then planned my surge to climax with me passing him going down a steep dip/hill right before kicking into the finish. Worked perfectly. I only had one competitor to worry about for 90% of the race. Had I been in a team race, I'm not sure I would have taken it out so fast and blown the race up so much. My strategy was a little risky in that I could get into trouble taking it out too fast and dying. I didn't have a team to worry about, so it was first place or bust. In the team race, I probably would have stayed in contact and kicked so I didn't risk killing my team with a terrible performance.

Last edited by psycho_dad; 08-30-17 at 09:58 AM..
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  #23  
Old 08-30-17, 11:09 AM
yj_runfan yj_runfan is offline
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Interesting. My sons' coach, who knows how to win state championships, employed many different race strategies tailored to each years team but, to my knowledge, he never suggested my kid give up a chance at a district or regional title.
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Old 08-30-17, 11:19 AM
SOTT SOTT is offline
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Originally Posted by mathking View Post
...honestly i am more mystified by coaches that have runners crush every race all season long, only to progressively come back to the pack.
+1
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Old 08-30-17, 11:50 AM
EuclidandViren EuclidandViren is offline
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Originally Posted by yj_runfan View Post
Interesting. My sons' coach, who knows how to win state championships, employed many different race strategies tailored to each years team but, to my knowledge, he never suggested my kid give up a chance at a district or regional title.
If an individual could give up an individual title to let the team qualify, would you do it?

That is the question.

To me it is a hard question but I always take team over individual. The program is more important to me than any individual accolades. If I can improve my overall program for the greater good I would sacrifice an individual title. Similar to a basketball player sacrificing a couple of shots in order to get more guys involved on the offense in order to win games.
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Old 08-30-17, 12:05 PM
yj_runfan yj_runfan is offline
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Originally Posted by EuclidandViren View Post
If an individual could give up an individual title to let the team qualify, would you do it?

That is the question.

To me it is a hard question but I always take team over individual. The program is more important to me than any individual accolades. If I can improve my overall program for the greater good I would sacrifice an individual title. Similar to a basketball player sacrificing a couple of shots in order to get more guys involved on the offense in order to win games.
I don't know if I would but I believe both of my sons would have if they were asked. I don't think their coach ever thought it was necessary.
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Old 08-30-17, 12:48 PM
psycho_dad psycho_dad is offline
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Originally Posted by yj_runfan View Post
Interesting. My sons' coach, who knows how to win state championships, employed many different race strategies tailored to each years team but, to my knowledge, he never suggested my kid give up a chance at a district or regional title.
I don't necessarily think it's about asking a kid to not win a District or Regional title to help the team, but it's more about how you win it and by how much you win it by. I will say that sometimes it was my responsibility to keep the team in tact until a certain point of the race or to make sure our 5 or 6 was in a position to beat another's teams 5 at a point in the race. After that, I was free to go do whatever I needed to win. I still had a job to do and beat other #1's as well as pull and push my teammates.

Most of the work is done before the District, Regional and State meets and the holding back your number one or two is done at regular season meets.

It's easy to be a #1. Typically, you only have to go out and run in the front and beat the others teams #1 or at worst don't get beat by someone's #2. Your position can usually fluctuate 10 places and not matter too much. 4 and 5 usually determines if your team wins or not. Much more pressure and many more runners you are competing with. Learning from your #1 early in the season can only help.

But like was said, if not winning an individual title somehow helped the team at the District, Regional or State, I would do it and I know others that would too.
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Old 08-30-17, 01:58 PM
yj_runfan yj_runfan is offline
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Back to the original point... being impressed by a low team split. It could be the result of the coaches strategy but it could also be seven pretty equal runners. It doesn't tell me much at all about a team no matter what place they finished.
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Old 08-30-17, 02:15 PM
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If team A beats team B but has a slower combined time/average time, wouldn't that be more impressive and have to come from a good pack, compared to team A just having a lower 1-5 split?

Last edited by runner12345; 08-30-17 at 02:16 PM.. Reason: Spelling
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Old 08-30-17, 08:10 PM
Adam97 Adam97 is offline
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A tight 1-7 pack the first meet of the season tells me that some of the runners towards the front of the pack might have been saving something, and I would expect them to drop significant time as the season progresses.
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