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  #1  
Old 08-26-17, 04:31 PM
xcrunner69 xcrunner69 is offline
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Week One Thread

A bit late to start one, but gonna do it anyway. Thoughts on results from this weekend? Any major upsets or surprises? Teams or individuals to watch out for?
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  #2  
Old 08-26-17, 06:07 PM
starcatcher8 starcatcher8 is offline
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Under near perfect weather conditions (at least for the morning races) the times were extremely fast, especially for this early in the season. Hudson looks really good. St. X has a lot of depth. Lots of individuals under 16:00 already. Teams who chose not to run this weekend might be wishing that they had.
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  #3  
Old 08-26-17, 07:24 PM
CC Track Fan CC Track Fan is offline
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Chad Johnson of Colonel Crawford 14:54.88 has to be mentioned along with Dustin Horter 14:56. To bad they are in different divisions and will not run against each other at state.

If they are running that fast in August looking forward to what they do in November.
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  #4  
Old 08-27-17, 05:49 AM
said_aouita said_aouita is offline
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Minster girls are fast.


Shocker, I know.

Last edited by said_aouita; 08-27-17 at 11:03 AM..
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  #5  
Old 08-27-17, 09:34 AM
Rohbino Rohbino is offline
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Conant Smith, a junior at Middletown, goes 15:10 to win the Bob Schul Invitational by more than a minute. If he remains healthy he should be a top 5 finisher at the state meet.

Faith Duncan, a freshman at Lebanon, goes 17:51 to with the girls race at Bob Schul.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CC Track Fan View Post
Chad Johnson of Colonel Crawford 14:54.88 has to be mentioned along with Dustin Horter 14:56. To bad they are in different divisions and will not run against each other at state.

If they are running that fast in August looking forward to what they do in November.
It's a looooong season. A lot can happen between now and November. Runners develop and peak at different rates and at different points in the season.
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  #6  
Old 08-27-17, 01:13 PM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
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Looks like everyone found fast courses for week one.
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  #7  
Old 08-27-17, 05:52 PM
psycho_dad psycho_dad is offline
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Originally Posted by ccrunner609 View Post
Looks like everyone found fast courses for week one.
Has made the sport less and less interesting every year as it has become more about individuals and times rather than teams and tactics. Barely a mix of fast and challenging courses. It's all about times. Who cares? I see courses that have changed just for the sake of getting faster times. Sure not advantageous for kids that are strength runners.
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Old 08-27-17, 06:17 PM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_dad View Post
Has made the sport less and less interesting every year as it has become more about individuals and times rather than teams and tactics. Barely a mix of fast and challenging courses. It's all about times. Who cares? I see courses that have changed just for the sake of getting faster times. Sure not advantageous for kids that are strength runners.
I will make no apologies.....I make the Schul course as fast as I can. Teach a kid to run fast not hard. The state meet and all the regional courses are track on grass.
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  #9  
Old 08-27-17, 06:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccrunner609 View Post
I will make no apologies.....I make the Schul course as fast as I can. Teach a kid to run fast not hard. The state meet and all the regional courses are track on grass.
The NE District teams do not approve this message.
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  #10  
Old 08-27-17, 07:45 PM
OhioXC17 OhioXC17 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccrunner609 View Post
Looks like everyone found fast courses for week one.
The weather also was a huge factor. It produced some abnormally fast times at pick north for it being this early in the season. I wouldn't be surprised if the times there aren't much faster at the regional meet in October
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Old 08-27-17, 08:39 PM
madman madman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccrunner609 View Post
I will make no apologies.....I make the Schul course as fast as I can. Teach a kid to run fast not hard. The state meet and all the regional courses are track on grass.
Like it or not, this is true.

I still look for a couple tough courses each season just because I think they are still a valuable part of the sport even if the powers that be in Ohio don't reflect it in the choice of regional/state meet courses.

I also don't think it's completely the fault of those in power. The internet has made comparing times the basis for comparing performances without regard for conditions - weather/competition.

Before milesplit there were serious attempts to rank the very best teams taking into account head-to-head results and derivatives thereof. There were certainly value judgements involved, but it was systematic and could have been codified.

Years ago Milesplit began the process of trying to establish course ratings, but to my knowledge they were never used in the ranking process. Furthermore it seems like the rankings were treated as if they were fixed values rather than taking into account conditions - wind, rain, mud, etc. that vary from year to year and can make huge differences so they would have been misleading if they were used.

I still think it's possible to develop "live" course rankings by following teams from week-to-week and course-to-course. The more teams that run the same course in subsequent weeks, the more accourate those rankings. Smaller meets would have less reliable rankings, but they are also less likely to influence to top end.

The internet is here to stay and human nature means that we will continue to make comparisons using the easiest metric to obtain. I don't see the track on grass movement subsiding even by a few die-hard coaches who fight the trend.
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Old 08-27-17, 08:46 PM
NECoach NECoach is offline
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Slight issue with Boardman being "track on grass." All other points extremely valid.
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  #13  
Old 08-27-17, 09:05 PM
madman madman is offline
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Originally Posted by NECoach View Post
Slight issue with Boardman being "track on grass." All other points extremely valid.
But it is headed in that direction. The course is MUCH faster than it used to be. The crushed limestone path in the woods versus the mulch/mud mixture that used to be there, the straight downhill finish versus the muddy right hand turn to an uphill finish, etc. This year they've made another change to eliminate one of the tightest turns on the course. I think they are smart - being market driven allows your event to survive and even thrive in this environment.

For the last 5 years, depending on the weather, I've had several kids set PRs at Boardman's Invitational.
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Old 08-27-17, 10:47 PM
psycho_dad psycho_dad is offline
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There are about 200 teams per division. Of those teams, 20% have a realistic shot of making it to the state meet with 10% actually making it there. The percentage of runners that make it to the state meet has to be extremely low. The sport is being dumbed down to individuals and times. So much is learned from small or dual meets and that is a thing of the past. Something that is much more important for 80% of teams and individuals than these large "fast" meets.

In a sport were time means absolutely nothing, it has become the most important thing. It is a comparison tool only, but other than that, it does not impact the outcome of a single race. Get rid of the times in results and the scores and final outcomes stay the same. It's a stat. Can't think of another sport that has allowed a stat dictate so much.

So with better technology and access to information, we have dumbed it down instead of using that technology and information to enhance the sport. Course ratings would be so useful and interesting and then track on grass would not be such a dominant option. There are kids that are much better at hills and turns and other challenges than others that don't get to showcase that. Everything has to be geared towards the elite in the sport and only those that are elite in a certain way. We will see how this season goes, but I see so much more running than racing. Teammates that take races out in a pace that destroys their own teammates and team. Teammates that run 5 seconds apart from each other an entire race at 1 and 2 and not only do not help each other out, but do nothing for the other teammates. Teams that have no team strategy. Just individual goals. Winning a race by 30 seconds, when controlling the race and helping teammates get better or even taking 5th place if that helped your team and teammates score higher, makes no sense to me.

Changing a course just for the sole purpose of making it faster is dumb.
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  #15  
Old 08-28-17, 11:54 AM
EuclidandViren EuclidandViren is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_dad View Post
There are about 200 teams per division. Of those teams, 20% have a realistic shot of making it to the state meet with 10% actually making it there. The percentage of runners that make it to the state meet has to be extremely low. The sport is being dumbed down to individuals and times. So much is learned from small or dual meets and that is a thing of the past. Something that is much more important for 80% of teams and individuals than these large "fast" meets.

In a sport were time means absolutely nothing, it has become the most important thing. It is a comparison tool only, but other than that, it does not impact the outcome of a single race. Get rid of the times in results and the scores and final outcomes stay the same. It's a stat. Can't think of another sport that has allowed a stat dictate so much.

So with better technology and access to information, we have dumbed it down instead of using that technology and information to enhance the sport. Course ratings would be so useful and interesting and then track on grass would not be such a dominant option. There are kids that are much better at hills and turns and other challenges than others that don't get to showcase that. Everything has to be geared towards the elite in the sport and only those that are elite in a certain way. We will see how this season goes, but I see so much more running than racing. Teammates that take races out in a pace that destroys their own teammates and team. Teammates that run 5 seconds apart from each other an entire race at 1 and 2 and not only do not help each other out, but do nothing for the other teammates. Teams that have no team strategy. Just individual goals. Winning a race by 30 seconds, when controlling the race and helping teammates get better or even taking 5th place if that helped your team and teammates score higher, makes no sense to me.

Changing a course just for the sole purpose of making it faster is dumb.
I agree with most that you have said.

Sports with stats- baseball the homerun, basketball points per game, football yards throwing, receiving or running. Football touchdowns means a lot too.

But that is besides the point.

The major aspect is the fast courses. 5-10 years ago I would agree with you 100%. But with the state meet course being SOOO dam fast and the course so flat and so quick that I feel the need to change my coaching strategy and training based upon the state meet course.

Last year my team finished right in the middle of the pack at the state meet. I analyzed workouts and times throughout the season and we were better than our state championship team 10 years before. What has changed? The field has gotten faster, the runners faster, the individuals faster, the course is blazing and my workouts hadn't changed. We were a great team, but failed because of the coach. What am I doing? Changing some aspects of our training and changing the courses we run on just a bit in order to be better prepared for this state meet course.

The state meet is all that matters. The rest of the season is pre-season.
No one remembers a first place at the Bob Schul or a last place at a dual meet. Only how they finished. That is why I believe the state course is so fast. End of a fast course= a PR. That means a lot to kids after the individual place and team finish. Changes need to be made for us old farts.
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Old 08-28-17, 04:47 PM
billcarson billcarson is offline
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The state meet is all that matters. The rest of the season is pre-season.
If you really believe this, you and PD won't agree on much, and how do the non top 7 on your team like this approach?
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Old 08-28-17, 07:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EuclidandViren View Post
I agree with most that you have said.

Sports with stats- baseball the homerun, basketball points per game, football yards throwing, receiving or running. Football touchdowns means a lot too.

But that is besides the point.

The major aspect is the fast courses. 5-10 years ago I would agree with you 100%. But with the state meet course being SOOO dam fast and the course so flat and so quick that I feel the need to change my coaching strategy and training based upon the state meet course.

Last year my team finished right in the middle of the pack at the state meet. I analyzed workouts and times throughout the season and we were better than our state championship team 10 years before. What has changed? The field has gotten faster, the runners faster, the individuals faster, the course is blazing and my workouts hadn't changed. We were a great team, but failed because of the coach. What am I doing? Changing some aspects of our training and changing the courses we run on just a bit in order to be better prepared for this state meet course.

The state meet is all that matters. The rest of the season is pre-season.
No one remembers a first place at the Bob Schul or a last place at a dual meet. Only how they finished. That is why I believe the state course is so fast. End of a fast course= a PR. That means a lot to kids after the individual place and team finish. Changes need to be made for us old farts.
What do you tell your kids if and when you have a team that has no realistic chance to make the state meet?
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Old 08-29-17, 05:56 AM
SOTT SOTT is offline
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"The state meet is all that matters" mindset is, in my opinion, definitely the wrong one. We try to teach being process oriented. We want the kids to enjoy the little moments, the ice baths, feeling accomplished after a great long run, etc. If you don't enjoy the journey along the way the final outcome won't be nearly as sweet.

It reminds me of the time the famous author Jack Higgins was asked what he wish he knew as a boy that he knows now. His answer: "[I wish I knew] That when you get to the top, there's nothing there."

I don't ever want that to be our kids' sentiment.
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Old 08-29-17, 06:59 AM
5x26 5x26 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rohbino View Post
Faith Duncan, a freshman at Lebanon, goes 17:51 to with the girls race at Bob Schul.


Lebanon's Number 2 girl Hope Erbach (also a Freshman) is right behind Duncan as well but she's out injured. She could have also gone sub 18. They say she'll be back in time for GWOC.
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Old 08-29-17, 09:32 AM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
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Originally Posted by billcarson View Post
The state meet is all that matters. The rest of the season is pre-season.
If you really believe this, you and PD won't agree on much, and how do the non top 7 on your team like this approach?
You must not be a DI school in SW Ohio. Because down here it's the regional that matters
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Old 08-29-17, 01:22 PM
EuclidandViren EuclidandViren is offline
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Originally Posted by ccrunner609 View Post
You must not be a DI school in SW Ohio. Because down here it's the regional that matters
So the Regional is more important than the state meet?

I believe in the progression of the athlete over not only 1 year but 4-5-6.

My favorite athlete is a a guy that ran 14:00's in middle school.
Freshmen year ran 20:00+
Sophomore year 18:00's
Junior year 17:00s
and senior year breaks 17:00 minutes.

Nothing more gratifying than seeing this progression.
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Old 08-29-17, 05:08 PM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EuclidandViren View Post
So the Regional is more important than the state meet?

I believe in the progression of the athlete over not only 1 year but 4-5-6.

My favorite athlete is a a guy that ran 14:00's in middle school.
Freshmen year ran 20:00+
Sophomore year 18:00's
Junior year 17:00s
and senior year breaks 17:00 minutes.

Nothing more gratifying than seeing this progression.
yea because if you look too far ahead the regional is so tough you wont be running the next week. A very small amount of individuals and teams can train through the region
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