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  #31  
Old 05-20-18, 09:17 PM
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Track and Field has tie breakers to break ties in the high jump and pole vault. If a person is given second because of those tie breakers, how can the second place finisher get credit for the record.
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  #32  
Old 05-20-18, 09:23 PM
Finishtiming Finishtiming is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lancermania View Post
Track and Field has tie breakers to break ties in the high jump and pole vault. If a person is given second because of those tie breakers, how can the second place finisher get credit for the record.
The record is the height jumped not the place. Also by your thinking then if you jump higher in a jumpoff you would not get the record either.
  #33  
Old 05-20-18, 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Finishtiming View Post
The record is the height jumped not the place. Also by your thinking then if you jump higher in a jumpoff you would not get the record either.
I can't follow you on the second part. Isn't the jumpoff done to determine a place when the tie breakers don't distinguish who is first or second. Why wouldn't you get credit if you win the jumpoff and get a higher jump than you did before the jumpoff. Aren't the jumpoffs part of the competition. Thus you should get the record from the jumpoff if you jump higher than you did before the jumpoff.

Last edited by Lancermania; 05-20-18 at 09:50 PM..
  #34  
Old 05-20-18, 09:54 PM
Finishtiming Finishtiming is offline
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I can't follow you on the second part. Isn't the jumpoff done to determine a place when the tie breakers don't distinguish who is first or second. Why wouldn't you get credit if you win the jumpoff and get a higher jump than you did before the jumpoff. Aren't the jumpoffs part of the competition. Thus you should get the record from the jumpoff if you jump higher than you did before the jumpoff.
Read your original question. You say that a person that jumps 6-6 but is second to someone else that jumps 6-6 because of misses then they should not get the record also. If that is the case then why should you get a record for lets say 6-7 since it is actually a jump after the winning height. you cant have it both ways. I am saying that no matter how many misses you have or place you receive you get credit for the highest height and if it is a record then all jumpers that clear that height should get credit as record holder.
  #35  
Old 05-20-18, 10:04 PM
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I say that a vaulter who clears 12'0 on a lessor attempt than the other person should get the record by herself. Vaulter "a" clears the height on her first attempt while vaulter "b" clears it on her second or third. It's comparable to getting a perfect score on the ACT. A person who gets 36 on her first attempt at the test is superior in my eyes to someone who gets a 36 on her second attempt taking the test even though both have the same perfect score..

Last edited by Lancermania; 05-20-18 at 10:32 PM..
  #36  
Old 05-20-18, 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Finishtiming View Post
Read your original question. You say that a person that jumps 6-6 but is second to someone else that jumps 6-6 because of misses then they should not get the record also. If that is the case then why should you get a record for lets say 6-7 since it is actually a jump after the winning height. you cant have it both ways. I am saying that no matter how many misses you have or place you receive you get credit for the highest height and if it is a record then all jumpers that clear that height should get credit as record holder.
How it this having it both ways. It's the same way whether you determine who is better by tie breakers or by having a jumpoff. I can't see a difference between the two, just two different ways to determine who is better.
  #37  
Old 05-20-18, 10:21 PM
JAVMAN83 JAVMAN83 is offline
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I had an athlete win a regional HJ in a jump-off. School record, yes, but I'm not sure whether it would've counted as a meet record, had it been one. I don't recall the specifics of NFHS policies regarding such situations.
  #38  
Old 05-21-18, 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Lancermania View Post
I say that a vaulter who clears 12'0 on a lessor attempt than the other person should get the record by herself. Vaulter "a" clears the height on her first attempt while vaulter "b" clears it on her second or third.
Does this only matter if they compete in the same competition? Vaulter "a" clears on his first attempt in 2008. Vaulter "b" clears on his second or third attempt in 2018. Should we not add Vaulter "b" to the record sheet?
  #39  
Old 05-21-18, 07:16 AM
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Here's another scenario:

Vaulters A and B clear 12'0 on their first attempt and are both "clean" through the competition to this point. Bar raised to 12'3 where they both miss three times. Fourth attempt at 12'3 is a miss. Bar lowered to 12'0. A clears and B misses. Does B get left off the record sheet because she lost the jumpoff at a height she previously cleared on her first attempt?

Does your answer change if they both miss the jumpoff at 12'0 and it's lowered to 11'9 and the tie is broken there?
  #40  
Old 05-21-18, 09:16 AM
JAVMAN83 JAVMAN83 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Altor View Post
Here's another scenario:

Vaulters A and B clear 12'0 on their first attempt and are both "clean" through the competition to this point. Bar raised to 12'3 where they both miss three times. Fourth attempt at 12'3 is a miss. Bar lowered to 12'0. A clears and B misses. Does B get left off the record sheet because she lost the jumpoff at a height she previously cleared on her first attempt?

Does your answer change if they both miss the jumpoff at 12'0 and it's lowered to 11'9 and the tie is broken there?
If the record was made PRIOR to the jump-off, both get credit, regardless of where the jump-off ends. However, after thinking about it, you can't make a new record in the jump-off process, if my memory serves me correctly. So, in your scenario, A & B get credit for the 12' record. Had the jump-off resulted in them both clearing 12' again, then moving back up to 12' 3" and one of them clears, the 12' 3" would NOT count as a new record, and both would get credit for 12' as the record.
  #41  
Old 05-21-18, 09:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finishtiming View Post
The record is the height jumped not the place.
It turns out you were correct. I sent an email to Tim Stried who is in charge of records for the OHSAA, and this is his response. "both accomplishments are valid for the record. The tie-breakers are only used to determine points scored."
  #42  
Old 05-21-18, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by JAVMAN83 View Post
However, after thinking about it, you can't make a new record in the jump-off process, if my memory serves me correctly. So, in your scenario, A & B get credit for the 12' record. Had the jump-off resulted in them both clearing 12' again, then moving back up to 12' 3" and one of them clears, the 12' 3" would NOT count as a new record, and both would get credit for 12' as the record.
This is incorrect. The highest height made during a jump-off for FIRST place are credited as the athletes' mark for the competition.

At District and Regionals, jump-offs for the FOURTH qualifier are NOT credited. They are scored as a tie for fourth at the height made during the competition. The only thing we are jumping off is the qualifying position.
  #43  
Old 05-21-18, 11:07 AM
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Look at the logic as it would apply to the running events too. Let's a sprinter sets the state record in the 100 in 2000 at 11.59. Then in 2017 another girl runs 11.59. Should they both have the record? There is every likelihood no one looked at either time to the 1/1000th (and in 2000 they probably couldn't look at it to the thousandth) so there is no way to know who was "faster" and it might be they still tied. Then if the next year another girl runs 11.59 but it is slower than the 2017 time or faster than the 2017. Do you bump off one of the two later record holders? Even if they both might have been faster than the 2000 athlete?

If the two athletes had the same best mark, that mark is the record. The tie breaking used to determine place does not affect what the mark is.
  #44  
Old 05-21-18, 12:10 PM
JAVMAN83 JAVMAN83 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Altor View Post
This is incorrect. The highest height made during a jump-off for FIRST place are credited as the athletes' mark for the competition.

At District and Regionals, jump-offs for the FOURTH qualifier are NOT credited. They are scored as a tie for fourth at the height made during the competition. The only thing we are jumping off is the qualifying position.
Maybe you misunderstood me. Yes, the athlete is credited for the mark made in a jump-off as the winning mark, IF that mark is higher than that established before the jump-off. However, if the mark made during the jump-off is LOWER, then the mark made before the jump-off is the winning mark. However, RECORDS, I believe, cannot be set during the jump-off process; only the winning mark can be established if it was HIGHER than that before the jump-off. I'm going to dig out my almost 10 yrs old versions of the NFHS procedures this evening & confirm this for myself, if possible.
  #45  
Old 05-21-18, 12:12 PM
JAVMAN83 JAVMAN83 is offline
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Originally Posted by mathking View Post
Look at the logic as it would apply to the running events too. Let's a sprinter sets the state record in the 100 in 2000 at 11.59. Then in 2017 another girl runs 11.59. Should they both have the record? There is every likelihood no one looked at either time to the 1/1000th (and in 2000 they probably couldn't look at it to the thousandth) so there is no way to know who was "faster" and it might be they still tied. Then if the next year another girl runs 11.59 but it is slower than the 2017 time or faster than the 2017. Do you bump off one of the two later record holders? Even if they both might have been faster than the 2000 athlete?

If the two athletes had the same best mark, that mark is the record. The tie breaking used to determine place does not affect what the mark is.
Exactly. Given your scenario, both athletes would be credited for the record of 11.59 seconds.
  #46  
Old 05-21-18, 12:21 PM
Altor Altor is offline
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Javman, there's no need to dig out 10 year old anything if you have any recent rule books. I suggest you start with rule 9-3-1 and 9-3-2. Tied marks in the field events are given equal weight for record purposes, regardless of the tie-breaking procedure used to break ties for scoring. And a competitor shall be credited with his best achievement, including performances made in a jump-off for first place.

As I said in another thread, those are the NFHS rules for National Records. If other organizations want to put their own rules and stipulations, that's their prerogative. I'm 100% sure the OHSAA would put both names on a record mark for both State records and Regional and State Meet records even if the tie was broken. They would also count a mark made in a jump-off.
  #47  
Old 05-22-18, 11:31 AM
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The applicable rule book page is scanned here. It it on page 71 of the National Federation of State High School Associations Track and Cross Country Rule Book. Rule 9 Records starts on page 71. The applicable section is Section 3 Field Events on page 72, Articles 1 and 2. Article 1 proves I was wrong. Article 2 proves JAVMAN83 was wrong. I'm always looking to increase my education, so here is the proof.

http://www.swotccca.com/Documents/Ci.../Scan_0020.pdf

Last edited by Lancermania; 05-22-18 at 11:43 AM..
  #48  
Old 05-22-18, 10:02 PM
JAVMAN83 JAVMAN83 is offline
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Originally Posted by Lancermania View Post
The applicable rule book page is scanned here. It it on page 71 of the National Federation of State High School Associations Track and Cross Country Rule Book. Rule 9 Records starts on page 71. The applicable section is Section 3 Field Events on page 72, Articles 1 and 2. Article 1 proves I was wrong. Article 2 proves JAVMAN83 was wrong. I'm always looking to increase my education, so here is the proof.

http://www.swotccca.com/Documents/Ci.../Scan_0020.pdf
In 2010, the records section in the same publication was part of Rule 10, Section 3. The reading of Articles 1, 2, & 3 are the same as the 2018, Rule 9, Section 3 articles. So, it appears that no change has taken place.

HOWEVER, NOWHERE in the reading of those articles is the subject of record verification mentioned concerning if the height cleared in a jump-off is HIGHER than that cleared prior to the jump-off. It only states that the credit for the best achievement of an athlete is given whether it takes place in the prelims, finals, or jump-off situation for 1st place. Nowhere does it approve or disapprove, in those articles mentioned, the record certification for a higher mark made in a jump-off. It only says that credit for that mark is to be given to the athlete.

That said, and I may still be wrong on this point, there is something in my memory banks from long ago that there is a case against record certification of marks made in a jump-off situation. The Rules Book appears not to cover this situation. I don't have the case book, and I think a consultation with OHSAA or NFHS might be in order on someone's behalf. I'm already engaged with other more pressing projects as well as work.

Like I said, I might be wrong, but I think I just might be right on this one.
  #49  
Old 05-22-18, 10:04 PM
JAVMAN83 JAVMAN83 is offline
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Sorry for the delay since Sunday. Life & work got in the way. See the 1st post for the Winton Woods summary, and for an updated Girls' district records file. I had to make a typo correction on the wind reading on the 100m record, and added the heat # to the 4x100m record for Winton Woods.
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Old 05-22-18, 10:22 PM
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The statement that the best achievement is recorded including those that occur in a jump-off is in Rule 9 which is titled RECORDS. I think it's pretty obvious that they intend it to be included for record purposes.

Like I said, any records you are in charge of keeping, you can make your own rules and stipulations. I have no doubt that the NFHS and OHSAA would accept a record made during a jump-off for first.
  #51  
Old 05-22-18, 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Altor View Post
The statement that the best achievement is recorded including those that occur in a jump-off is in Rule 9 which is titled RECORDS. I think it's pretty obvious that they intend it to be included for record purposes.

Like I said, any records you are in charge of keeping, you can make your own rules and stipulations. I have no doubt that the NFHS and OHSAA would accept a record made during a jump-off for first.
I understand what you are saying. Like I said, I'm willing and find no shame in being wrong on this point. I am, however, and engineer and tend to read things from a technical standpoint. You infer that because the recognition imparted by the articles for a better mark made in the jump-off situation shall be credited to the athlete is in fact viable for record certification because it is mentioned in the "Records" Rule. I understand yours and others readings of the articles as such. However, I do not make such an inference as I see the lack of clearly specifying that such a better mark IS also valid for record certification as lacking clarity in the rule itself.

Like I said, I may very well be wrong on this one. Yours and others' inferences may very well be correct. Kudos to the athletes that make a better mark in a jump-off that becomes a record! I do see a discrepancy, however, in the treatment between such a tie-resolution situation and that of other events. In what other event would an additional set of attempts allow for record consideration? Riddle me that?

All this said, I did do a quick check over on www.PoleVaultPower.com and found a thread where this situation was brought up. A source that I trust reasonably so indicated that such a mark would be acceptable for record purposes, so there's a good probability that I'm wrong on my inference. Like I said, I see a lack of clarity in the rule as it is not specifically called out.
  #52  
Old 05-22-18, 10:53 PM
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Here you go then. From the 2018 Case Book

Quote:
9.3.2 SITUATION:

After the tie-breaking procedures had been applied, A1 and B1 are tied for first place in the high jump at 5 feet, 10 inches, having missed on all three attempts at 5 feet, 11 inches. Both clear 5 feet, 11 inches on their first attempt in the jump-off, The bar is raised 1 inch to 6 feet where A1 clears it on his/her attempt and B1 misses. A1 is awarded first place with a winning height of 6 feet. When A1 cleared the bar at 6 feet, he/she set a new school record.

RULING: Legal procedure. A1 is awarded his/her best height of the competition, 6 feet, thus allowing him/her to claim the school record.
  #53  
Old 05-22-18, 11:40 PM
JAVMAN83 JAVMAN83 is offline
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Here you go then. From the 2018 Case Book
Thank you, but that mentions school record, not meet record. Once again, it can be inferred that the same applies, but it is not specific to MEET RECORD.

Not always is a record a record. It would be nice if the case book made it clear.
  #54  
Old 05-23-18, 01:41 AM
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Stubborn pride
  #55  
Old 05-23-18, 04:02 AM
JAVMAN83 JAVMAN83 is offline
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Stubborn pride
I can understand how one can label it that. As I stated earlier, the way I read the rules as written, there is room for subjective interpretation (inference) because the articles mentioned don't explicitly define what records are covered. That lack of specificity is what I, as an engineer, abhor in writing, particularly when it comes to something that should easily clear to anyone.

Call it stubborn pride. That's fine with me.

Anyway, that's enough of this subject. I'm locking the thread as this one has gotten away from the purpose of why I started it to begin with. See the new thread.
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