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  #1  
Old 06-13-17, 10:32 PM
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The Canton CC-St. Thomas Aquinas Thread

Mods, feel free to move any relevant content from the NBC/EBC thread (this thread http://www.yappi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=302698) over to this one.

I don't know what to call this thread, but based on the NBC/EBC thread, Stark County Catholics have something to talk about. It's a discussion that needs to happen, IMHO.

Perhaps a touch of the gloves or one of these is appropriate to get things rolling:





Based on what I've read so far in the other thread, none of us are going to be Crusaders or Knights much longer. At the rate we're going, we're all going to be dinosaurs because we're too %^&*in' busy sniping each other to the point of extinction.

Let's get on with it and give the NBC/EBC folks their thread back.

Enjoy.
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  #2  
Old 06-14-17, 06:02 AM
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Is there real talk on merger, or just in the Yappiverse?
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Old 06-14-17, 08:03 AM
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Ohio Senate Bill 85

If this is ever passed as it is currently written, what's everyone's opinion on its effect on the CC-STA and HCA enrollment situation?

"The bill eliminates the Educational Choice (Ed Choice) Scholarship Program and Pilot Project (Cleveland) Scholarship Program, and establishes a new scholarship program based on family income, entitled the Opportunity Scholarship Program. Beginning with the 2018-2019 school year, the new scholarship program provides income-based scholarships to students to pay tuition and fees at chartered nonpublic schools. It also "grandfathers" students and their siblings if the student received an Ed Choice or Cleveland scholarship during the 2017-2018 school year by qualifying them for a scholarship under the Opportunity Scholarship Program."

Home Page:
https://www.legislature.ohio.gov/leg...id=GA132-SB-85

Bill Summary:
https://www.legislature.ohio.gov/dow...738&format=pdf

Fiscal Notes:
https://www.legislature.ohio.gov/dow...844&format=pdf

Last edited by TriangleMan; 06-14-17 at 09:58 AM.
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Old 06-14-17, 10:12 AM
fbrox fbrox is offline
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It's a terrible bill that is designed with only two purposes. One is to devastate public schools by starving them. Two is to retaliate against the teacher unions across the state. We refer to this as union busting. Notice it does nothing to work on school reform.
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  #5  
Old 06-14-17, 10:46 AM
Stark Born & Bred Stark Born & Bred is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Slippery View Post
Mods, feel free to move any relevant content from the NBC/EBC thread (this thread http://www.yappi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=302698) over to this one.

I don't know what to call this thread, but based on the NBC/EBC thread, Stark County Catholics have something to talk about. It's a discussion that needs to happen, IMHO.

Perhaps a touch of the gloves or one of these is appropriate to get things rolling:





Based on what I've read so far in the other thread, none of us are going to be Crusaders or Knights much longer. At the rate we're going, we're all going to be dinosaurs because we're too %^&*in' busy sniping each other to the point of extinction.

Let's get on with it and give the NBC/EBC folks their thread back.

Enjoy.
Thanks for putting this together, Slip. I have certainly be a sniper, at times, but I also think I have been very realistic most of the time -- realistic about the present and future of the existing high schools, realistic about the ability to pay for Catholic education in Stark County among its current residents and realistic about what changes our school system will face or must face, like it or not.

I still believe that Catholic education, generally, is becoming more and more unaffordable and the biggest issue facing our schools - now and in the future, is not the location of the building, declining enrollment, the likely and necessary mergers and consolidations, or the Diocese of Youngstown and our lack of independence. In my opinion, it is the fact that the current schools and the future school(s) are and will be tuition-dependent. This forces you to either charge the per pupil rate (which would be 20%, 30%, in the case of some elementary schools 100% higher than the current rate) or fundraise annually to fill that gap in your operating budget. This is draining and rarely allows for forward thinking and planning and capital needs. In short, you are living paycheck-to-paycheck and that is not sustainable.

The lack of substantial endowment dollars at ALL of our schools does not allow for the ups and downs that come with any tuition driven model. In addition, the fixed costs of the building and a minimal/core faculty stay the same regardless of the number of students you have. So despite the fact that tuition has doubled in the past 15 years, enrollment drops have resulted in a larger annual fundraising gap than ever to simply close the gap in the budget.

So, when there is one high school, I think the more important things is to ensure its long-term financial stability. When it comes to building a new school, I think that is a great idea but an unachievable idea all the same. I do not think we could sell off enough current assets, raise enough money and borrow a responsible amount to fill the gap necessary to build a high school, with land acquisition, modern learning space, playing fields, parking, etc. to accommodate 400-500 students. I estimate that cost at $30M-$45M. IF would we could raise half of that, I would be shocked. If we could raise only a quarter of that in an endowment campaign (less sexy and always less successful than capital campaigns), I would much rather have a $7.5M-$11M endowment and utilize our existing facilities than no endowment, but a new building on which we are paying a $20M mortgage.

At the end of the day, my optimism for the future of Catholic education in Stark County is waning. At the end of the day, less people want the product you are selling. You can blame the consumer (parents and students), you can blame management (DOY, administration), and you can blame the market (demographics of our community and the fact that dedicated Catholics exist in fewer numbers and with less enthusiasm than before). You also need to look at your product and the perceived value of that product. Whether we like it or not, it is a product that is not being bought. For some, they like their public school option better. For some, it is simply unaffordable and we do not have well thought out, legitimate financial aid programs where the dollars are replaced by endowment fund distributions (in short, they are just discounts which further tax your annual fundraising base). For some, Catholicism is less important to them than ever before or perhaps not important at all making it very difficult to justify the expense of tuition.

I have no answers, but those are my thoughts.
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  #6  
Old 06-14-17, 10:49 AM
Summa Summa is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TriangleMan View Post
If this is ever passed as it is currently written, what's everyone's opinion on its effect on the CC-STA and HCA enrollment situation?

"The bill eliminates the Educational Choice (Ed Choice) Scholarship Program and Pilot Project (Cleveland) Scholarship Program, and establishes a new scholarship program based on family income, entitled the Opportunity Scholarship Program. Beginning with the 2018-2019 school year, the new scholarship program provides income-based scholarships to students to pay tuition and fees at chartered nonpublic schools. It also "grandfathers" students and their siblings if the student received an Ed Choice or Cleveland scholarship during the 2017-2018 school year by qualifying them for a scholarship under the Opportunity Scholarship Program."

Home Page:
https://www.legislature.ohio.gov/leg...id=GA132-SB-85

Bill Summary:
https://www.legislature.ohio.gov/dow...738&format=pdf

Fiscal Notes:
https://www.legislature.ohio.gov/dow...844&format=pdf
I think it is a good bill but obviously others will vehemently disagree. The bill reaches into the middle class. Middle class families in that income range who now struggle or are completely unable to pay the increasing tuition for Catholic or other private schools. That has been the biggest problem for private schools that don't have large endowments and scholarship programs. The Bishop has stated many times that Catholic schools are not just for the wealthy and the poor, but that really has not been backed up in by the Diocese. The poor are able to attend through Ed Choice and the upper middle class to upper class can afford tuition (though the upper middle class is now even struggling to afford tuition because some don't want to sacrifice other discretionary spending). The middle class Catholics struggle or are completely unable to afford tuition.

The bill may be a game changer, but I still think the two schools need to collaborate and sure up Catholic secondary education in the county, if that means consolidation/merger then I am all for it if it is done the right way respecting and continuing both schools histories moving forward.
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  #7  
Old 06-14-17, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by EagleFan View Post
Is there real talk on merger, or just in the Yappiverse?
As of now, both schools are still in business, and there is no public mention of a merger. That stated, I have no idea what's being said behind closed doors. The schools are going to attempt to hire 1 president to serve both schools. To me, that's just greasing the skids for 1 school.

Last edited by Mr. Slippery; 06-14-17 at 11:12 AM.
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  #8  
Old 06-14-17, 10:56 AM
Stark Born & Bred Stark Born & Bred is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TriangleMan View Post
If this is ever passed as it is currently written, what's everyone's opinion on its effect on the CC-STA and HCA enrollment situation?

"The bill eliminates the Educational Choice (Ed Choice) Scholarship Program and Pilot Project (Cleveland) Scholarship Program, and establishes a new scholarship program based on family income, entitled the Opportunity Scholarship Program. Beginning with the 2018-2019 school year, the new scholarship program provides income-based scholarships to students to pay tuition and fees at chartered nonpublic schools. It also "grandfathers" students and their siblings if the student received an Ed Choice or Cleveland scholarship during the 2017-2018 school year by qualifying them for a scholarship under the Opportunity Scholarship Program."

Home Page:
https://www.legislature.ohio.gov/leg...id=GA132-SB-85

Bill Summary:
https://www.legislature.ohio.gov/dow...738&format=pdf

Fiscal Notes:
https://www.legislature.ohio.gov/dow...844&format=pdf
Just as Ed Choice before it, I do not think it will have the incredible effect on enrollment that some people think it will. I actually think that it will help stabilize inner-ring and older suburban areas near our metro centers more than anything else by allowing people who live there and who might otherwise be motivated to move to the suburbs for better school districts, to choose private education at a lower cost/free. Therefore, white flight or suburban sprawl might be slowed (it will never be stopped).

For example, assume a family lives in West Manor and has a household income of $60,000. Kids are reaching school age. If I do not like Perry, maybe I move to one of the far southern 1960s/1970s neighborhoods in Jackson. The cost ($150,000) might be a stretch but it seems more doable in the long-term than tuition for three kids at Joan of Arc and projected tuition at Central of $8,000-$10,000 per kid for 4 years. With the expanded vouchers, I can stay in my home, not increase my housing costs and go to private school for free or nearly free. A nice option for that family and definitely a good thing for West Manor and Perry Township.

That said, I think you have the same issues you have with Ed Choice. Racial component aside (and I do think the racial component plays a part), I see this is far more classist than racist. And this expansion increases that issue. You will have those that get the vouchers resented by those that do not. You will have well-to-do parents not wanting to fill their schools with "those kids." It is awful, it is un-Catholic, but it happens and it happens all the time and we have seen in happen in this county.

I guess I agree with Summa. It is a good thing but it is not a cure-all and you still have to have a product that people want.
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Old 06-14-17, 12:00 PM
Summa Summa is offline
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I don't know if anyone else saw this story. Go to this school's website, they do not appear to even need this money, the campus and school are beautiful, they have 1,700 students and they just made $24,000,000 on a $15,000 investment.


http://thecatholicspirit.com/news/na...at-investment/

https://churchpop.com/2017/03/02/cat...t-in-snapchat/

http://www.sfhs.com/page.cfm?p=1827

Last edited by Summa; 06-14-17 at 12:20 PM.
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Old 06-14-17, 12:11 PM
Stark Born & Bred Stark Born & Bred is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Summa View Post
I don't know if anyone else saw this story. Go to this school's website, they do not appear to even need this money their campus and school is beautiful, they have 1,700 students and they just made $24,000,000 in a $15,000 investment.


http://thecatholicspirit.com/news/na...at-investment/

https://churchpop.com/2017/03/02/cat...t-in-snapchat/

http://www.sfhs.com/page.cfm?p=1827
1,600 bagger on an investment - now, THAT is special and that is financial security. That $24,000,000 windfall is 20% more than the entire endowment at Walsh . . . University, not Jesuit!!
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Old 06-14-17, 12:12 PM
Summa Summa is offline
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Originally Posted by Stark Born & Bred View Post
Thanks for putting this together, Slip. I have certainly be a sniper, at times, but I also think I have been very realistic most of the time -- realistic about the present and future of the existing high schools, realistic about the ability to pay for Catholic education in Stark County among its current residents and realistic about what changes our school system will face or must face, like it or not.

I still believe that Catholic education, generally, is becoming more and more unaffordable and the biggest issue facing our schools - now and in the future, is not the location of the building, declining enrollment, the likely and necessary mergers and consolidations, or the Diocese of Youngstown and our lack of independence. In my opinion, it is the fact that the current schools and the future school(s) are and will be tuition-dependent. This forces you to either charge the per pupil rate (which would be 20%, 30%, in the case of some elementary schools 100% higher than the current rate) or fundraise annually to fill that gap in your operating budget. This is draining and rarely allows for forward thinking and planning and capital needs. In short, you are living paycheck-to-paycheck and that is not sustainable.

The lack of substantial endowment dollars at ALL of our schools does not allow for the ups and downs that come with any tuition driven model. In addition, the fixed costs of the building and a minimal/core faculty stay the same regardless of the number of students you have. So despite the fact that tuition has doubled in the past 15 years, enrollment drops have resulted in a larger annual fundraising gap than ever to simply close the gap in the budget.

So, when there is one high school, I think the more important things is to ensure its long-term financial stability. When it comes to building a new school, I think that is a great idea but an unachievable idea all the same. I do not think we could sell off enough current assets, raise enough money and borrow a responsible amount to fill the gap necessary to build a high school, with land acquisition, modern learning space, playing fields, parking, etc. to accommodate 400-500 students. I estimate that cost at $30M-$45M. IF would we could raise half of that, I would be shocked. If we could raise only a quarter of that in an endowment campaign (less sexy and always less successful than capital campaigns), I would much rather have a $7.5M-$11M endowment and utilize our existing facilities than no endowment, but a new building on which we are paying a $20M mortgage.

At the end of the day, my optimism for the future of Catholic education in Stark County is waning. At the end of the day, less people want the product you are selling. You can blame the consumer (parents and students), you can blame management (DOY, administration), and you can blame the market (demographics of our community and the fact that dedicated Catholics exist in fewer numbers and with less enthusiasm than before). You also need to look at your product and the perceived value of that product. Whether we like it or not, it is a product that is not being bought. For some, they like their public school option better. For some, it is simply unaffordable and we do not have well thought out, legitimate financial aid programs where the dollars are replaced by endowment fund distributions (in short, they are just discounts which further tax your annual fundraising base). For some, Catholicism is less important to them than ever before or perhaps not important at all making it very difficult to justify the expense of tuition.

I have no answers, but those are my thoughts.
I agree with most of this but obviously not your take on a new building. New buildings in better locations do, in fact, increase enrollment, increase fundraising and increase endowment. The evidence is pretty clear on this everywhere it has been done. That is why all the consulting groups state this fact including ones hired by the DOY to assess the schools. Interest in a new building must be explored in good faith. If there is no interest or insufficient interest by donors then we are no worse off. We will just have to agree to disagree on this point.

Cardinal Wuerl is a perfect example of this. The new school only had 286 students in 2014 and was up to 447 in 2016. The goal is to increase to 1,000. The old school "North Catholic" would have likely closed had it not been moved and a new building been built. Attempting to keep the school at the old location and trying to build up the endowment would not have saved North Catholic from closure.





http://triblive.com/news/allegheny/1...ocese-catholic

http://triblive.com/news/adminpage/6...dinal-students

Last edited by Summa; 06-14-17 at 02:01 PM.
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  #12  
Old 06-14-17, 12:22 PM
Summa Summa is offline
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Originally Posted by Stark Born & Bred View Post
1,600 bagger on an investment - now, THAT is special and that is financial security. That $24,000,000 windfall is 20% more than the entire endowment at Walsh . . . University, not Jesuit!!
Did you see their campus? WOW! I am pretty certain this school had plenty of financial security even before this investment paid off.

http://www.sfhs.com/page.cfm?p=1827

Last edited by Summa; 06-14-17 at 02:56 PM.
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Old 06-14-17, 12:39 PM
Stark Born & Bred Stark Born & Bred is offline
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Wink

Quote:
Originally Posted by Summa View Post
I agree with most of this obviously not your take a new building. New buildings in better locations do, in fact, increase enrollment, fundraising and endowment. The evidence is pretty clear on this, so we will just have to agree to disagree on that point.

Cardinal Wuerl is a perfect example of this. The new school only had 286 students in 2014 and was up to 447 in 2016. The goal is to increase to 1,000. The old school "North Catholic" would have likely closed had it not been moved and a new building been built.



http://triblive.com/news/allegheny/1...ocese-catholic

http://triblive.com/news/adminpage/6...dinal-students
Good point. However, the new Cardinal Wuerl is 21 miles from its previous location. This was not a new building for an old school as much as it was building a school in an area that was not previously served by Catholic secondary education and closing a school that was failing in its current location. In short, the kids in Cranberry Township were not and were never going to commute to Pittsburgh for what North Catholic had to offer. If they were going to the city, it was for one of the upper crust private schools (Central Catholic, Shadyside, Oakland, etc). In turn, many of the kids being served at North Catholic are not making the trip to Cranberry Township for the new school. Also, that relocation is estimated to cost close to $75M. Again, I do not think that is feasible.

I cannot think of a good hypothetical example around here because of the dropping population and abundance of catholic schools. Maybe, like Hoban moving to the Medina/Cuyahoga County line to serve a populated, wealthier area with no current Catholic school (though I acknowledge most of those kids are served by Akron and Cleveland schools). 21 miles from Aquinas or Central would be the equivalent of moving a school to downtown Akron (which again, I acknowledge is served by schools and is not affluent). Probably the closest hypothetical I can dream up would be Watterson or Hartley or DeSales moving to the Dublin/Powell/Marysville border. Not really serving the old population, just finding a new one.

I guess the main question would be whether or North Canton/Jackson/Lake families would be more likely to go to a new building which would, in the end, look a lot like (but likely lacking many of the bells and whistles already present) in their existing public schools. Throw on top the fact that JT and NC are creeping further north with every new neighborhood and LT is already the northern most school district so Hoban and Jesuit are already a very easy and strong option. In short, if we are going to cater to this demographic, would we be duplicating services due to the proximity of the school to Summit County?

Of course, predicting expansion and demographic shifts is difficult. Developers and politicians get it wrong all of the time. If the Diocese could do it over again, I think they would have went with the runner-up option and located Aquinas along 43, near Applegrove as that was a site that was examined and considered. The decision was to place it closer to Louisville so it would be more proximate to Alliance and not so far removed from the eastern side of Canton. Seems laughable now but it made sense then. If millionaires who make their millions predicting this stuff sometimes get it wrong, I have no hope.
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Old 06-14-17, 12:40 PM
Stark Born & Bred Stark Born & Bred is offline
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Did you see their campus? I am pretty certain this school had plenty of financial security even before this investment paid off.
True. The rich to tend to get richer and part of that is our problem. Parents want their kids to go to a school that they perceive to be stable and "in." Donors want to give money to the same type of schools. We are not giving off that vibe right now.
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Old 06-14-17, 12:51 PM
Stark Born & Bred Stark Born & Bred is offline
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I can't see how Hoban would ever be a bad idea. It is an outstanding school with plenty of funding that will keep it stable for a long, long time. It greatly depends on what happens here. If Aquinas is still open they go to Aquinas, if number 2 happens and both Aquinas and Central are closed and a new school is opened at one of the former sites and the histories of the schools are maintained and preserved they very well may go to that new school. If number 3 happens they will definitely be going to the newly constructed Catholic high school in Stark County. If they have to go to Hoban at least they will still be Knights!
I was not meaning to imply that Hoban was a bad idea. I was asking whether it was a bad idea to locate a school so near 77 and so far north that we are, for all intents and purposes, would be sitting within spitting distance of Hoban - an established school that, as you said, has a large enrollment, pretty nice older facilities and some really nice new additions and gives the impression of financial stability.
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Old 06-14-17, 12:52 PM
Summa Summa is offline
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Stark Born,

I don't know if you realize it or not, but much of what you said in your last two posts actually strengthen my position that a new building is needed.
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Old 06-14-17, 01:00 PM
BHSspartans13 BHSspartans13 is offline
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The precedent has been set that the Bishop would prefer the schools be in urban areas, or at least to not get more exurban it seems. One of the big stinks about the Mooney relocation was that the Bishop didn't want to be perceived as abandoning the city. Which is sort of absurd considering Youngstown has Ursuline downtown right on the YSU campus...

In Stark County you obviously don't have that problem is both high schools are in suburban/exurban areas. I myself would be curious as to how many/if any folks in the northern parts of Jackson, North Canton, or Lake Townships send kids to Hoban.

You could conceivably make the argument that expanding in Louisville or at least on the East side would be preferable. There's not a Catholic HS until you get to Mooney heading East.

Now had the Bishop done what many in Youngstown wanted to and relocated Mooney to the southern edge of Boardman or in Beaver Township, you could have served a much wider land area and appealed more to the base. It's really a mess with so many problems; some of which start within the home so who knows how much tinkering would even work!

I long for the days when Boardman township alone had 2 Roman Catholic K-8 schools AND a Byzantine-run Catholic school...Wasn't all that long ago either.
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Old 06-14-17, 01:22 PM
Stark Born & Bred Stark Born & Bred is offline
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Stark Born,

I don't know if you realize it or not, but much of what you said in your last two posts actually strengthen my position that a new building is needed.
How so? I guess you could say a new building would give the perception of stability but I still do not think we could overcome the financial instability the cost of the new building would bring (because, again, I do not think it can be paid for without substantial debt).

You could be right, but expand.
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Old 06-14-17, 01:26 PM
Stark Born & Bred Stark Born & Bred is offline
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Originally Posted by BHSspartans13 View Post
The precedent has been set that the Bishop would prefer the schools be in urban areas, or at least to not get more exurban it seems. One of the big stinks about the Mooney relocation was that the Bishop didn't want to be perceived as abandoning the city. Which is sort of absurd considering Youngstown has Ursuline downtown right on the YSU campus...

In Stark County you obviously don't have that problem is both high schools are in suburban/exurban areas. I myself would be curious as to how many/if any folks in the northern parts of Jackson, North Canton, or Lake Townships send kids to Hoban.

You could conceivably make the argument that expanding in Louisville or at least on the East side would be preferable. There's not a Catholic HS until you get to Mooney heading East.

Now had the Bishop done what many in Youngstown wanted to and relocated Mooney to the southern edge of Boardman or in Beaver Township, you could have served a much wider land area and appealed more to the base. It's really a mess with so many problems; some of which start within the home so who knows how much tinkering would even work!

I long for the days when Boardman township alone had 2 Roman Catholic K-8 schools AND a Byzantine-run Catholic school...Wasn't all that long ago either.
Many of us yearn for the old days but, as you and I know, they are not coming back.

I have only heard rumors as to how many Stark County residents attend Catholic high schools in Summit County but the latest rumor is that next year there will be as many Stark County residents attending Hoban/SVSM/Walsh/Elms as attending Aquinas. I find that hard to believe but maybe I just do not want to believe it.

As an aside, I thought Mooney would be able to raise the money, I thought they would move and I thought that was a good idea. Mainly I thought it was a good idea because I thought they would get the money together to finance it.
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Old 06-14-17, 01:56 PM
BHSspartans13 BHSspartans13 is offline
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I don't know how much was really needed to build a school, and of course what you hear from certain factions may not always be true, but I'm pretty sure it's fact that the Bishop demanded benefactors raise something in the $28 million range (in a 1-2 year period) to relocate Mooney. For the suburban/exurban Youngstown area I thought that was a bit excessive and designed to basically force them to come up short. In the end a large sum was raised from the DeBartolo family primarily and it went into upgrades at the present location (costly in itself).

I guess my thought, especially considering that Mahoning and Stark are in the same diocese, is that Mooney should have located somewhere in South-Central Mahoning County to not only keep and likely add more from the Boardman, Canfield, Poland grouping, but to tap into Columbiana County and the rural areas out towards Salem, Beloit, and Alliance. I just think that if you built a single Stark school in the Canton area or towards Perry, you'd be leaving a vacuum from Louisville on East.

The other thorny issue is those Summit schools are part of the Cleveland Diocese or are independent. So there definitely has to be some competitive mindset in play...
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Old 06-14-17, 02:09 PM
Summa Summa is offline
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How so? I guess you could say a new building would give the perception of stability but I still do not think we could overcome the financial instability the cost of the new building would bring (because, again, I do not think it can be paid for without substantial debt).

You could be right, but expand.
You "think" but do not know because you are not willing to even allow a real attempt at a new school building.

Your posts strengthen my argument much more than just the stability issue. When I have a little more time I will break it down. You may be retired, I don't know, but I am not and have been slacking off far too much today.
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Old 06-14-17, 03:00 PM
sapientia et veritas sapientia et veritas is offline
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The last rebuild of Catholic high schools happened from mid-50s to late 60s. And that really was the last. Holy Name moved to a new building in 1978. I think that's the newest Diocesan run school built in the state. VASJ new building was 1972. Everything else in the state was built when half the staff in the buildings was working for free, more or less. The Dioceses are not going to buy new land or build new buildings for high schools until the demographics stabilize. As long as people continue to abandon the churches, the schools, and the priesthood in droves, it makes no sense to redefine service areas until all the parish closures and consolidations are done.
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Old 06-14-17, 03:05 PM
Summa Summa is offline
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True. The rich to tend to get richer and part of that is our problem. Parents want their kids to go to a school that they perceive to be stable and "in." Donors want to give money to the same type of schools. We are not giving off that vibe right now.
There are some absolutely amazing Catholic high school campuses out west. And I mean campuses. These schools are like college campuses not high schools. Bishop Gorman in Las Vegas and Catheral High School in San Diego come to mind. There are no schools in Ohio, public or private, that come anywhere near these campuses. I guess St. Xavier or on a smaller scale Gilmour maybe. St. Ignatius probably would if it had more land to work with.
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Old 06-14-17, 03:25 PM
Stark Born & Bred Stark Born & Bred is offline
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The last rebuild of Catholic high schools happened from mid-50s to late 60s. And that really was the last. Holy Name moved to a new building in 1978. I think that's the newest Diocesan run school built in the state. VASJ new building was 1972. Everything else in the state was built when half the staff in the buildings was working for free, more or less. The Dioceses are not going to buy new land or build new buildings for high schools until the demographics stabilize. As long as people continue to abandon the churches, the schools, and the priesthood in droves, it makes no sense to redefine service areas until all the parish closures and consolidations are done.
Great point. I think a bigger failure was the slowness with which they reacted to the decline. It has been ongoing for almost 50 years but, admittedly, with some upticks (the '90s) and a rather drastic decline the past 10-15 years. They also failed to expand the elementary school network to the growing areas living the "new" suburbs further and further away from an existing school.

In Stark County, for example, they wanted to establish a new parish and school in Jackson Township in the 1970s/1980s. St. Michael and St. Mary fought it hard and it never came to be. In the short term, this was good for those parishes. In the long-run, and as the township pushed further and further away from these parishes, that area is now underserved in terms of a school (the nearest parish schools are 20 minute drives in some situations) and, in fact, the DOY has lost many worshipers to the nearest parish which in the Diocese of Cleveland - in Green, just over the township line (it has no school). In short, they reacted to the decline but not expanding when perhaps they should have closed places faster while still going to the people and establishing new parishes and elementary schools where necessary and if financially able. Who knows?

Also, I think the newest diocesan high school is Bishop Fenwick in Middletown. It was built about 15-20 years ago. I cannot think of any other.
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Old 06-14-17, 03:28 PM
Stark Born & Bred Stark Born & Bred is offline
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There are some absolutely amazing Catholic high school campuses out west. And I mean campuses. These schools are like college campuses not high schools. Bishop Gorman in Las Vegas and Catheral High School in San Diego come to mind. There are no schools in Ohio, public or private, that come anywhere near these campuses. I guess St. Xavier or on a smaller scale Gilmour maybe. St. Ignatius probably would if it had more land to work with.
There are some really cool set-ups out there. In Ohio, WRA would be tops, in my opinion, but boarding schools are a different genre. I think the nicest day school (that I have been to) would be University School. In fact, I think US would be on par with just about any other campus setting you could name. As far as Ohio Catholic schools, I think you named the top 3 contenders - Ignatius, Xavier and Gilmour. St. Charles is pretty nice, as well.
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Old 06-14-17, 03:30 PM
Stark Born & Bred Stark Born & Bred is offline
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You "think" but do not know because you are not willing to even allow a real attempt at a new school building.

Your posts strengthen my argument much more than just the stability issue. When I have a little more time I will break it down. You may be retired, I don't know, but I am not and have been slacking off far too much today.
I would most certainly allow an attempt. . . I just do not think the money will be there. As for slacking, get to work!! We need at least a seven figure pledge from you.

As so often is the case when fundraising for nonprofits, the people with the passion often do not have the money and the people with the money often do not have the passion.
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Old 06-14-17, 03:38 PM
sapientia et veritas sapientia et veritas is offline
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St. Ignatius probably would if it had more land to work with.
When I ran past it during the Cleveland Marathon maybe a decade ago that 25th street to the east looked like it was in the middle of being transformed from urban abandoned factory dump to hipsterville. They should have bought it all up when it was still a dump. One of my kids went bar hopping with friends there a year or two ago and said that the revitalization was complete.
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Old 06-14-17, 03:58 PM
sapientia et veritas sapientia et veritas is offline
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They also failed to expand the elementary school network to the growing areas living the "new" suburbs further and further away from an existing school.
It was a common trend for too long of a time to take half steps toward new schools. Build classrooms for CCD and maybe a parish activity center that could eventually be expanded into an actual school. And then people moved to suburbs and built nice and expensive public schools, and the half finished parish schools remained never finished - like Little Flower up there in Middlebranch. That died when GlenOak went up. My own parish did the same thing. We've got a library, 9 classrooms and a separate gym/auditorium with the unbuilt principal's and nurse's offices in between. And the PSR classes are sparse. Eventually they'll become vast storage rooms or something.
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Old 06-14-17, 04:12 PM
Summa Summa is offline
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Also, I think the newest diocesan high school is Bishop Fenwick in Middletown. It was built about 15-20 years ago. I cannot think of any other.
The new Fenwick high school was completed in 2004 if my memory is correct.
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Old 06-14-17, 05:54 PM
CoventryTrackXCguy CoventryTrackXCguy is offline
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How much does non-denominational schools like Lake Center Christian affect enrollment at STA or CCC?

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