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  #481  
Old 12-14-17, 06:21 PM
Indiandad Indiandad is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eastside_purple View Post
They won’t compete next year. Indiandad has an unrealistic idea about how good this team is.
I have said no such thing. At no point have i predicted a win total.

Last edited by Indiandad; 12-15-17 at 10:30 AM..
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  #482  
Old 12-14-17, 06:26 PM
Indiandad Indiandad is offline
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Originally Posted by adselder09 View Post
Compete for what exactly? The division? A wild card spot? I know this team will have a few new pieces, but the majority of a 68-win team is back. They were 26th out of 30, the expectation should be about 75-80 wins next year with the chance to make a real leap the following year.
I would agree that 2019 is probably when the Reds window starts to open. However I think the Reds will hold onto Hamilton for a couple of months into the season before deciding if he is part of this teams furure.
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  #483  
Old 12-14-17, 06:35 PM
Indiandad Indiandad is offline
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The Reds asking price for Iglesias is very high. Perhaps they could lower it in terms of prospects by including Homer Bailey into the deal.

If the Reds could pull off a deal like that they would be clearing a whole lot of payroll going into the 2019 offseason. Mesoraco, Bailey and Iglesias (who will likely opt into Arbitration) would clear $45M+ off the books.
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  #484  
Old 12-14-17, 07:49 PM
Arrogate Arrogate is offline
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I guess one can dream
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  #485  
Old 12-15-17, 07:51 AM
Indiandad Indiandad is offline
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Originally Posted by Arrogate View Post
I guess one can dream
That's the point of a message board. To discuss hypothetical.

Unfortunately that scenario will never happen for several reasons.
1) The Reds like Homer. Price came out this week and said Homer is in the rotation next year if he is healthy in spite of how bad Homer was this past season.
2) the Reds are not hurting for salary relief even if that salary could be put to better uses.
3) The Reds really like Iglesias and don't want to part with him even though they will have several guys who could close games by the time they are competitive again.
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  #486  
Old 12-15-17, 07:57 AM
Indiandad Indiandad is offline
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Speaking of the Reds rotation.....

Why did Price commit 4 rotation spots to guys in December? Finnegan, Disco and Bailey were all hurt last year. Granted Price did include the Caveat "if they are healthy", but wouldn't you want to see if the improvements made in August and September by guys like Romano, Stephenson and Mahle continue before you say that only one will make the rotation? There just isn't an upside to those comments.
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  #487  
Old 12-15-17, 08:09 AM
Taco MacArthur Taco MacArthur is offline
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Well luckily it isn't a binding contract and he can change his mind. I suspect we'll see lots of Romano, Stephenson, Mahle, etc. even with promised spots in the rotation. I imagine this will be similar to last year with lots of rotation in the rotation, healthy or not.
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  #488  
Old 12-15-17, 08:41 AM
Gh0st Gh0st is offline
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A wide open starting rotation competition does not hurt the Reds in anyway. You take the most consistent 5 and send the rest to the bullpen.
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  #489  
Old 12-15-17, 09:32 AM
14Red 14Red is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indiandad View Post
Speaking of the Reds rotation.....

Why did Price commit 4 rotation spots to guys in December? Finnegan, Disco and Bailey were all hurt last year. Granted Price did include the Caveat "if they are healthy", but wouldn't you want to see if the improvements made in August and September by guys like Romano, Stephenson and Mahle continue before you say that only one will make the rotation? There just isn't an upside to those comments.
Homer Bailey makes too much money to just sit him in the bullpen and not let him pitch. I don't understand why this is so hard to figure out for people. IF HEALTHY, Homer is pitching, flat out. He can have a 8.00 ERA, does not matter. DiSclafani has done enough in his Reds career to be given a starting spot, he was hurt last year and we don't have others (other than Castillo) who may be ahead of him. Finnigan was also hurt last year, and I'm guessing he'll be given the first shot of making the rotation. So there is 4. My guess is Price is trying to really bring about alot of competition for that one spot. That is the upside.
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  #490  
Old 12-15-17, 09:37 AM
14Red 14Red is offline
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Originally Posted by Indiandad View Post
Which is why it comes down to whether or not you think this team is going to compete this season or not.

If you believe the young pitchers will get the job done this year then Billy is affordable. If you don't think the young guys can keep you in games then who really cares who is in CF.
If I'm a young pitcher, I'd like to have the best defensive lineup behind me as possible. Look at what the Reds have lost the last 2 seasons. Very good gloves at 2nd base and shortstop, the heart of your infield defense. Now there seems to be little appreciation for arguably the best defensive centerfielder in franchise history.
So now you're going to want to put one of our weak spots on the team - pitching - with less defense than we've had in years?
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  #491  
Old 12-15-17, 10:43 AM
Indiandad Indiandad is offline
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Originally Posted by 14Red View Post
Homer Bailey makes too much money to just sit him in the bullpen and not let him pitch. I don't understand why this is so hard to figure out for people. IF HEALTHY, Homer is pitching, flat out. He can have a 8.00 ERA, does not matter. DiSclafani has done enough in his Reds career to be given a starting spot, he was hurt last year and we don't have others (other than Castillo) who may be ahead of him. Finnigan was also hurt last year, and I'm guessing he'll be given the first shot of making the rotation. So there is 4. My guess is Price is trying to really bring about alot of competition for that one spot. That is the upside.
I thought they were playing to win. It should not matter how much money a guy is making. You're paying him regardless. Bailey can not have an 8 ERA and stay in the rotation. If he does then all the crap they preach to the young guys about performance means nothing. Bailey did absolutely nothing to earn a spot for 2018.


Stephenson, Romano and Mahle all had ERA's 2 full runs lower than Bailey last season.


I can understand going into camp with the mindset that Finnegan and Disco will get every opportunity to earn a spot but it should not be given to either of them in December.
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  #492  
Old 12-15-17, 11:22 AM
Gh0st Gh0st is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 14Red View Post
Homer Bailey makes too much money to just sit him in the bullpen and not let him pitch. I don't understand why this is so hard to figure out for people. IF HEALTHY, Homer is pitching, flat out. He can have a 8.00 ERA, does not matter. DiSclafani has done enough in his Reds career to be given a starting spot, he was hurt last year and we don't have others (other than Castillo) who may be ahead of him. Finnigan was also hurt last year, and I'm guessing he'll be given the first shot of making the rotation. So there is 4. My guess is Price is trying to really bring about alot of competition for that one spot. That is the upside.
Jesus Christ.
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  #493  
Old 12-15-17, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indiandad View Post
I have said no such thing. At no point have i predicted a win total.
I didnít say you predicted a win total, I said you are constantly overestimating how good they are or could be, particularly individual players....so the whole Zach Cozart and Iglesias trade value discussions and projecting the Reds to have the highest NL scoring average in over a decade next year....if you believe the latter (and your posts suggest you do) then of course you feel they will be very competitive next year.
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  #494  
Old 12-15-17, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Indiandad View Post
That's the point of a message board. To discuss hypothetical.

Unfortunately that scenario will never happen for several reasons.
1) The Reds like Homer. Price came out this week and said Homer is in the rotation next year if he is healthy in spite of how bad Homer was this past season.
2) the Reds are not hurting for salary relief even if that salary could be put to better uses.
3) The Reds really like Iglesias and don't want to part with him even though they will have several guys who could close games by the time they are competitive again.
I think you should pose a hypothetical and then shoot it down in the very next post for not having a chance, if you are going to get butthurt when people respond it will never happen.
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  #495  
Old 12-15-17, 11:43 AM
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eastside_purple eastside_purple is offline
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Originally Posted by Gh0st View Post
Jesus Christ.
I still think heís real and not a troll.
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  #496  
Old 12-15-17, 12:02 PM
Arrogate Arrogate is offline
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He still can't spell Finnegan
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  #497  
Old 12-15-17, 12:07 PM
14Red 14Red is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indiandad View Post
I thought they were playing to win. It should not matter how much money a guy is making. You're paying him regardless. Bailey can not have an 8 ERA and stay in the rotation. If he does then all the crap they preach to the young guys about performance means nothing. Bailey did absolutely nothing to earn a spot for 2018.


Stephenson, Romano and Mahle all had ERA's 2 full runs lower than Bailey last season.


I can understand going into camp with the mindset that Finnegan and Disco will get every opportunity to earn a spot but it should not be given to either of them in December.
In a perfect world Indiandad, you are right, but in reality, as a business, the Reds can pay a pitcher $20 mill a season and not pitch him if he's healthy. If you are the guy writing that check, you'd understand. I really don't think it's that difficult. Bailey's main goal in 2017 was to come back, and throw, pain free. The results were secondary. The fact that he made 18 or so starts WAS the goal. With our current collection of players, I'd say it's hard pressed to come up with 5 starters better than him. So yes, I'm projecting Homer as a starter. My guess is you'll probably see him opening day. Probably his last opening day start as a Red.

As far as Disco and Finnigan, I'd say maybe Price is using the one spot only as a real incentive for 3-4 guys to really get after it the this offseason and work hard for that spot. He can always change his mind. It's just words right now. I'd say it's December, why worry about it now.
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  #498  
Old 12-15-17, 12:08 PM
wolves82 wolves82 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 14Red View Post
Homer Bailey makes too much money to just sit him in the bullpen and not let him pitch. I don't understand why this is so hard to figure out for people. IF HEALTHY, Homer is pitching, flat out. He can have a 8.00 ERA, does not matter. DiSclafani has done enough in his Reds career to be given a starting spot, he was hurt last year and we don't have others (other than Castillo) who may be ahead of him. Finnigan was also hurt last year, and I'm guessing he'll be given the first shot of making the rotation. So there is 4. My guess is Price is trying to really bring about alot of competition for that one spot. That is the upside.
You must be Bryan Price with an on-line ID 14Red. There can't be two people this dumb guaranteeing rotation spots in December to guys who did not perform well last year.

As others say, these are just words. Salary does not dictate who pitches. Spring performance will dictate.
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  #499  
Old 12-15-17, 12:11 PM
14Red 14Red is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eastside_purple View Post
I didnít say you predicted a win total, I said you are constantly overestimating how good they are or could be, particularly individual players....so the whole Zach Cozart and Iglesias trade value discussions and projecting the Reds to have the highest NL scoring average in over a decade next year....if you believe the latter (and your posts suggest you do) then of course you feel they will be very competitive next year.
Or just EP and take the easy way out and say how bad the team will be every season and look at everything as half empty. You must be alot of fun to be around???

Absolutely darn yes! I think the Reds can contend next season. I'm optimistic. I think the young kids can come around. This team was good enough offensively (and defensively) to compete last year. You never know. No one had the Yankees as contenders last year. It was supposed to be the Red Sox and Blue Jays in the east. You never, ever know who's going to come out of nowhere. Aaron Judge had a cup of coffee in '16 and was a strikeout machine. They had several guys come out of nowhere last year. Have a little faith!!
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  #500  
Old 12-15-17, 12:12 PM
wolves82 wolves82 is offline
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Questions: Who is most annoyed and threatened by the Yankees signing Stanton? Who needs a great hitter at 1b? Who has enough money to handle Votto's contract.

Answer: Boston.

Reds need to be working this angle. I truly LOVE Joey Votto, as a player, a competitor, in every way. But his contract is a boat anchor for this team. This is one of the few chances to unload the contract.
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  #501  
Old 12-15-17, 12:54 PM
Indiandad Indiandad is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolves82 View Post
Questions: Who is most annoyed and threatened by the Yankees signing Stanton? Who needs a great hitter at 1b? Who has enough money to handle Votto's contract.

Answer: Boston.

Reds need to be working this angle. I truly LOVE Joey Votto, as a player, a competitor, in every way. But his contract is a boat anchor for this team. This is one of the few chances to unload the contract.
What would you ask in return?
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  #502  
Old 12-15-17, 12:59 PM
Indiandad Indiandad is offline
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Originally Posted by 14Red View Post
In a perfect world Indiandad, you are right, but in reality, as a business, the Reds can pay a pitcher $20 mill a season and not pitch him if he's healthy. If you are the guy writing that check, you'd understand. I really don't think it's that difficult. Bailey's main goal in 2017 was to come back, and throw, pain free. The results were secondary. The fact that he made 18 or so starts WAS the goal. With our current collection of players, I'd say it's hard pressed to come up with 5 starters better than him. So yes, I'm projecting Homer as a starter. My guess is you'll probably see him opening day. Probably his last opening day start as a Red.

As far as Disco and Finnigan, I'd say maybe Price is using the one spot only as a real incentive for 3-4 guys to really get after it the this offseason and work hard for that spot. He can always change his mind. It's just words right now. I'd say it's December, why worry about it now.
If he doesn't pitch and the Reds win, does he still get a check?
If he pitches and the Reds lose, does he get a check?

Is he unequivocally one of the top 5 starter candidates the Reds have?

Is he going to be a part of this team when they are competitive again?

YES, YES, NO, NO
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  #503  
Old 12-15-17, 02:14 PM
14Red 14Red is offline
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Well I'll be...just announced Cozart to the Angels...3 years $38 million??? And he's going to play 3rd base??? I'm serious...
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  #504  
Old 12-15-17, 02:16 PM
14Red 14Red is offline
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And you guys criticize the Reds front office all the time???
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  #505  
Old 12-15-17, 02:21 PM
Taco MacArthur Taco MacArthur is offline
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Yeah
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  #506  
Old 12-15-17, 02:30 PM
14Red 14Red is offline
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Originally Posted by Indiandad View Post
If he doesn't pitch and the Reds win, does he still get a check?
If he pitches and the Reds lose, does he get a check?

Is he unequivocally one of the top 5 starter candidates the Reds have?

Is he going to be a part of this team when they are competitive again?

YES, YES, NO, NO
Yes, Yes, not unequivocally, but he will be, just watch and see, and No

Do you really think they would pay him $20 mill this season and not have him pitch??
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  #507  
Old 12-15-17, 02:32 PM
Gh0st Gh0st is offline
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Originally Posted by eastside_purple View Post
I still think heís real and not a troll.
That honestly blows my mind.
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  #508  
Old 12-15-17, 02:33 PM
Gh0st Gh0st is offline
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Originally Posted by 14Red View Post
And you guys criticize the Reds front office all the time???
I don't know if you noticed, but the Angels are in hardcore, win-now mode. The Reds are rebuilding. Bit of a difference there and why signing Cozart makes sense for the Angels and not the Reds.
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  #509  
Old 12-16-17, 02:10 AM
Sig Hansen Sig Hansen is offline
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Originally Posted by Gh0st View Post
I don't know if you noticed, but the Angels are in hardcore, win-now mode. The Reds are rebuilding. Bit of a difference there and why signing Cozart makes sense for the Angels and not the Reds.
The Angels also have a giant TV contract and can afford such deals.
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  #510  
Old 12-18-17, 08:54 AM
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The Angels also have a giant TV contract and can afford such deals.
My point is, it's a good deal for the Angels, not a good deal for the Reds.
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