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  #31  
Old 05-14-18, 07:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Altor View Post
I've seen relay teams win events out of the slow heat because the entry mark was so far off. That doesn't resonate well with me either.

Also, entering your vaulter at 6'0 and then have her pass to 6'6 is not acceptable either. I don't want to hear complaints about why the vault is taking so long if we can't set an accurate starting height.
If it's a different batch of athletes from the last time the team entered a meet via baumspage, some coaches will get careless and switch out the names but not adjust the relay's seed time to match what the quartet they entered is actually capable of running. My school is sometimes guilty of that when we have to swap personnel in and out of relays from meet to meet.
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  #32  
Old 05-15-18, 10:11 AM
cvctrackfan cvctrackfan is online now
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Yesterday I was looking at the 100 meter seeding of one of the NE D1 districts. One school posted the following time.

10.12
Not to be out done the coach posted a 10.02 for the other runner
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  #33  
Old 05-15-18, 12:49 PM
CC Track Fan CC Track Fan is offline
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In NE there is also a 1:48 800 seed time. Best time for person in milesplit is over 20 seconds slower. It has to be a mistake because this guy is unlikely to make finals but it does throw of the competitive balance of heats.
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  #34  
Old 05-15-18, 01:08 PM
EuclidandViren EuclidandViren is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CC Track Fan View Post
In NE there is also a 1:48 800 seed time. Best time for person in milesplit is over 20 seconds slower. It has to be a mistake because this guy is unlikely to make finals but it does throw of the competitive balance of heats.
Possibly the 800 meter relay time...I've done that before. But that is pretty slow for a boys 800 meter relay.
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  #35  
Old 05-15-18, 06:59 PM
Hammerdrill Hammerdrill is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cvctrackfan View Post
Yesterday I was looking at the 100 meter seeding of one of the NE D1 districts. One school posted the following time.

10.12
Not to be out done the coach posted a 10.02 for the other runner
Has anyone even run below 10.5 this year? in the entire state?
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  #36  
Old 05-15-18, 07:28 PM
psycho_dad psycho_dad is offline
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There are always honest mistakes that get made. Thinking of girls times when entering boys or boys times for girls. Guys are running 11.12 and 11.02 or around there and then drop into the 10's and the coach accidentally puts 10.02 and 10.12 instead of 11.xx or 10.96 or something like that.

Opening heights are my gripe. Too random or arbitrary. They are not pressed to get the events done, so have reasonable starting heights. Especially a year like this year when weather has been so bad.
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  #37  
Old 05-18-18, 11:08 PM
CoventryTrackXCguy CoventryTrackXCguy is online now
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Getting legit seeding times for 100s is impossible anyways. once you consider wind assistance as well as some coaches going by handheld timing times.
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  #38  
Old 05-18-18, 11:30 PM
JAVMAN83 JAVMAN83 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_dad View Post
There are always honest mistakes that get made. Thinking of girls times when entering boys or boys times for girls. Guys are running 11.12 and 11.02 or around there and then drop into the 10's and the coach accidentally puts 10.02 and 10.12 instead of 11.xx or 10.96 or something like that.

Opening heights are my gripe. Too random or arbitrary. They are not pressed to get the events done, so have reasonable starting heights. Especially a year like this year when weather has been so bad.
Quick solution is: Set the opening height based on 1 foot lower than lowest entry mark listed, and NEVER should a vault be started in HS lower than 9' for the boys and 6' 6" for the girls. If they don't like it, tough toenails. If an athlete is not competent enough to vault at those heights, they shouldn't be in a HS meet yet. Leave them home.
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  #39  
Old 05-19-18, 08:47 AM
Run4Life Run4Life is offline
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Originally Posted by JAVMAN83 View Post
Quick solution is: If they don't like it, tough toenails. If an athlete is not competent enough to vault at those heights, they shouldn't be in a HS meet yet. Leave them home.
That might be the 9th athlete on team A's roster and needs to participate in the District Meet to count on the (9) participating clause to count as a team.
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  #40  
Old 05-19-18, 08:56 AM
JAVMAN83 JAVMAN83 is offline
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Originally Posted by Run4Life View Post
That might be the 9th athlete on team A's roster and needs to participate in the District Meet to count on the (9) participating clause to count as a team.
I understand that there are always exceptions. However, at a district meet, there should already be a minimum opening height, and there should not be any accommodations just because a straggler is needed to make a team "quorum".

Back in the early 80's, my recollection is that opening was 9' 6" in the old AA sectional at Reading. 12'-12' 6" was the typical winning height, and typically took 11' 6" or better to qualify to the Dayton District (now Piqua Region 8). What was "fun" back then was the vault at Welcome Stadium was where the long jump is now located. Drifting too far right had one landing on the guard rail in the stands!!!
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  #41  
Old 05-19-18, 03:01 PM
psycho_dad psycho_dad is offline
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My vaulters had 8 days of practice on the pit this year until the last 2 weeks where we got another 7 in for the boys and 8 in for the girls. 15 and 16 practices total. Vault in the NE is way down this year IMO and lack of practice days is a huge reason.
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  #42  
Old 05-19-18, 05:46 PM
EuclidandViren EuclidandViren is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Run4Life View Post
That might be the 9th athlete on team A's roster and needs to participate in the District Meet to count on the (9) participating clause to count as a team.
Does a NH count as participation?

What about a DNS, DQ, DNF?
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  #43  
Old 05-19-18, 05:54 PM
EuclidandViren EuclidandViren is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EuclidandViren View Post
Does a NH count as participation?

What about a DNS, DQ, DNF?
Asking because Cincinnati Withrow- 3 time state champion once again did not run 9 girls at the district meet. All 3 titles came without having 9 athletes at the District meet.

According to my basic understanding of the English vocabulary they should not be eligible for a TEAM state title unless they are counted as a team by the state of Ohio.

Seems like a double standard to me. I emailed the OHSAA commissioner asking OHSAA to take away Withrow's state title due to OHSAA own definition of a team. I did not hear a response from them.
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  #44  
Old 05-19-18, 06:38 PM
JAVMAN83 JAVMAN83 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EuclidandViren View Post
Asking because Cincinnati Withrow- 3 time state champion once again did not run 9 girls at the district meet. All 3 titles came without having 9 athletes at the District meet.

According to my basic understanding of the English vocabulary they should not be eligible for a TEAM state title unless they are counted as a team by the state of Ohio.

Seems like a double standard to me. I emailed the OHSAA commissioner asking OHSAA to take away Withrow's state title due to OHSAA own definition of a team. I did not hear a response from them.
You'd better check again.

I just spent 10 minutes counting the following number of different contestants for the Withrow women's team at the Mason District for the following years:

2015 - 12 contestants
2016 - 12 contestants
2017 - 9 contestants
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  #45  
Old 05-19-18, 06:45 PM
JAVMAN83 JAVMAN83 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_dad View Post
My vaulters had 8 days of practice on the pit this year until the last 2 weeks where we got another 7 in for the boys and 8 in for the girls. 15 and 16 practices total. Vault in the NE is way down this year IMO and lack of practice days is a huge reason.
I understand the weather problems in the Midwest this year. It affected colleges & universities as well.

The pole vault pads are not necessary in order to teach a beginning athlete the basics of the run-up, take-off, and swing. You can teach a lot of the vault in the long jump sandbox, and in a safe manner. The video that comes with the book "From Beginner to Bubka & Isinbayeva" has a very good series of drills for both beginner & advanced alike. I know I taught an absolute beginning female athlete to vault over 7 feet within 2 hours of her picking up a pole some years ago when we were desperately looking for all the points we could get at conference. As it turned out, we didn't need her efforts at all, but it does show one what is possible.

9' for boys and 6' 6" for girls are relative beginners in HS.
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  #46  
Old 05-19-18, 07:24 PM
Altor Altor is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EuclidandViren View Post
Does a NH count as participation?

What about a DNS, DQ, DNF?
Part of the problem is that scorers and meet managers across the state are inconsistent with how they use these abbreviations.

If you take their meanings literally NH, DNF, FS and DQ most definitely participated.

SCR's and DNS's are used rather interchangeably by almost everyone, even though they have very distinct meanings in my head. Most of the time, I would guess these did not participate.
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  #47  
Old 05-19-18, 07:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAVMAN83 View Post
I understand that there are always exceptions. However, at a district meet, there should already be a minimum opening height, and there should not be any accommodations just because a straggler is needed to make a team "quorum".

Back in the early 80's, my recollection is that opening was 9' 6" in the old AA sectional at Reading. 12'-12' 6" was the typical winning height, and typically took 11' 6" or better to qualify to the Dayton District (now Piqua Region 8). What was "fun" back then was the vault at Welcome Stadium was where the long jump is now located. Drifting too far right had one landing on the guard rail in the stands!!!
There generally aren't. The games committee generally looks at the seeds and will decide to start maybe 1 height lower than what it will take to whittle the field down to the placers. For example, girls HJ started at 4-6 at my school's district the other day because there were a number of girls seeded at 4-8 or higher. There were also 4 or 5 girls seeded at 4-4 and 1 at 4-0, so no accommodations are being made for stragglers at the tournament level. They want to complete the vertical jump competitions as quickly as possible.
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  #48  
Old 05-19-18, 08:16 PM
psycho_dad psycho_dad is offline
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I'm not disagreeing with you on starting heights. I'd probably go 6'-6" and 8'-6", but yours are OK too. My issue is that coaches put in high or low marks to manipulate starting heights, and that is just as bad as faster or slower times in the sprints. I have had years where our district starting height was higher than what we ended up with at the Regional. We have had girls start higher than boys. Same issue with HJ. This year, nothing was published on girls starting height in the PV for our District. Show up today and find out. Boys was 2 feet higher than last years with a winning height much lower than last years. PV is a quirky event to begin with, so to add to it a guessing game of where are we going to start year to year is not right to me. We are at the mercy of the meet director's whim.

It's like it's a completely different event from what it is in the regular season. How many of the other events are so different? Is it fair for kids with inexperienced coaches that might not be able to properly prepare them for how different and how much more strategy goes into it at the District and regional?
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  #49  
Old 05-19-18, 08:30 PM
Run4Life Run4Life is offline
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Originally Posted by EuclidandViren View Post
Does a NH count as participation?

What about a DNS, DQ, DNF?
A NH means they cleared no height, but they made an effort, not saying it was nearly clearing, but an effort. Is it any different than the terrible basketball team that has 7 terrible players and gets beat 114-8 in their sectional meet? It still counts, right? they just aren't very good. How about the football team that has bearly enough kids to field 11? That 5'4" 140 tackle might be the best they have, can't block anybody and they get smoked 0-10 but still might be the best they have. I do not see any difference between these examples. The regional meet cuts the entries down.

The same for the DQ and DNF. I think a DNS means did not start, so I would not count them in the 9 participation.
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  #50  
Old 05-19-18, 09:05 PM
JAVMAN83 JAVMAN83 is offline
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Originally Posted by psycho_dad View Post
I'm not disagreeing with you on starting heights. I'd probably go 6'-6" and 8'-6", but yours are OK too. My issue is that coaches put in high or low marks to manipulate starting heights, and that is just as bad as faster or slower times in the sprints. I have had years where our district starting height was higher than what we ended up with at the Regional. We have had girls start higher than boys. Same issue with HJ. This year, nothing was published on girls starting height in the PV for our District. Show up today and find out. Boys was 2 feet higher than last years with a winning height much lower than last years. PV is a quirky event to begin with, so to add to it a guessing game of where are we going to start year to year is not right to me. We are at the mercy of the meet director's whim.

It's like it's a completely different event from what it is in the regular season. How many of the other events are so different? Is it fair for kids with inexperienced coaches that might not be able to properly prepare them for how different and how much more strategy goes into it at the District and regional?
I understand yours and others frustrations. This not only happens at HS levels, but higher up as well. Piss-poor planning or just plain indifference on the part of the "organizers" of the particular competition. I'm of the opinion that at the district, region, and state levels, there should be a body of people that get together, in person or via video conference a month away from those meets to review a quick survey of the top marks coming into upcoming meet to determine opening heights & progressions. It really isn't rocket science for experienced coaches to come up with reasonable figures.

Unfortunately, as a good friend of mine has told me repeatedly in recent months, the sport is run by idiots. Doesn't matter what level, it is pervasive. Meets run too long, stupid measurements in metric system (collegiate level) without converting immediately to imperial (ft/inches) for benefit of the parents & general public. The list is almost endless, unfortunately. Marketing to the general public is piss-poor, if done at all. Except for the athletes themselves, the sport would die a quick death due to those running it.
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  #51  
Old 05-19-18, 09:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Run4Life View Post
A NH means they cleared no height, but they made an effort, not saying it was nearly clearing, but an effort. Is it any different than the terrible basketball team that has 7 terrible players and gets beat 114-8 in their sectional meet? It still counts, right? they just aren't very good. How about the football team that has bearly enough kids to field 11? That 5'4" 140 tackle might be the best they have, can't block anybody and they get smoked 0-10 but still might be the best they have. I do not see any difference between these examples. The regional meet cuts the entries down.

The same for the DQ and DNF. I think a DNS means did not start, so I would not count them in the 9 participation.
I see E&V's point. He wasn't trying to be a smart-aleck with his question about NH. I'd hope that everyone here would interpret a NH as participation, but I think he's asking whether or not the OHSAA interprets the different designations the same way that we would with regards to how many participants a school enters at the district meet (Ex. NH, ND, NT, DNS, DQ = participation. SCR or DNS = non-participation).
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  #52  
Old 05-20-18, 10:40 AM
Run4Life Run4Life is offline
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I see E&V's point. He wasn't trying to be a smart-aleck with his question about NH. I'd hope that everyone here would interpret a NH as participation, but I think he's asking whether or not the OHSAA interprets the different designations the same way that we would with regards to how many participants a school enters at the district meet (Ex. NH, ND, NT, DNS, DQ = participation. SCR or DNS = non-participation).
I believe the district meet manager makes these decisions based upon the paper work each school submits and meet results. Then submit their totals to the OHSAA. I am pretty sure the OHSAA only tallies numbers from each district manager and reports them to the board of control.

I would hope that the meet managers know the differences and tally correctly.
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  #53  
Old 05-20-18, 02:41 PM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
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1. Vertical jump heights need to be set and progress based on multiple factors.....rain, wind, temps......also the job of management is to score8, break ties and advance 4.

2. All reports and roster info makes it to Columbus.
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