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  #1  
Old 10-11-18, 01:22 PM
disciple disciple is offline
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New rule?

According to our coach the OHSAA has stated that alumni are not allowed in the rooms to workout with current wrestlers. It further states that any alumni that do, are considered "coaches" and must have all the PAV, CPR, etc certifications.

3 – Alumni Wrestlers at Practice

It has come to our attention that some wrestling programs believe it is permissible for alumni wrestlers to come back and practice against current wrestlers. No! This type of interaction would be considered coaching, and anyone who is coaching your wrestlers must complete all coaching requirements and certifications as designated by the Ohio Department of Education (http://education.ohio.gov/Topics/Tea...aching-Permits).


Is this new or just being clearly stated? Does it apply across the board to all OHSAA sanctioned sports?

Thoughts?
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  #2  
Old 10-11-18, 01:38 PM
Blast82.5 Blast82.5 is offline
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1 - I have no clue about the nature of this pronouncement ... New rule or Clarification or whatever.

2 - My "thought" is that this would be impossible to enforce, and will have zero impact relative to current practices.
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  #3  
Old 10-11-18, 02:08 PM
350zjk 350zjk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blast82.5 View Post
1 - I have no clue about the nature of this pronouncement ... New rule or Clarification or whatever.

2 - My "thought" is that this would be impossible to enforce, and will have zero impact relative to current practices.

As an official I concur with "Blast", but will do some research. I would caution that in today's age coaches might be a little concerned with liability.
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  #4  
Old 10-11-18, 02:28 PM
BHiatt BHiatt is offline
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OHSAA is just saying: "SHOW ME THE MONEY!!!!"

Alumni coming into the room once or twice a year is not a coach. Alumni coming into the room 2x a week, different story.
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  #5  
Old 10-11-18, 02:29 PM
Suplexer130 Suplexer130 is offline
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Yea this has been a rule for a while, but by the tone I think you can tell that many programs haven't really cared to follow it.
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  #6  
Old 10-11-18, 02:38 PM
said_aouita said_aouita is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BHiatt View Post
OHSAA is just saying: "SHOW ME THE MONEY!!!!"

Alumni coming into the room once or twice a year is not a coach. Alumni coming into the room 2x a week, different story.
This. It's unfortunate, once a student graduates from HS and goes onto college, they are literally forgotten about by the OHSAA. Those kids home on holiday break need a workout, too!
Some schools could have sold tickets, just for the practices during the Christmas break....
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  #7  
Old 10-11-18, 02:42 PM
Suplexer130 Suplexer130 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by said_aouita View Post
This. It's unfortunate, once a student graduates from HS and goes onto college, they are literally forgotten about by the OHSAA. Those kids home on holiday break need a workout, too!
Some schools could have sold tickets, just for the practices during the Christmas break....
Like most things blame the lawyers. It puts you in a really bad spot liability wise because these alumni aren't student athletes to the OHSAA and if they aren't coaches then the liability becomes a mess if something were to happen.
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  #8  
Old 10-11-18, 04:28 PM
Jim Behrens Jim Behrens is offline
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As an official, this has nothing to do with us.
However I think there are two really big issues here.
The first is liability. The rule seems to be quite clear so if there is an alum in the room and someone (a HS wrestler) gets hurt, any attorney who takes the case has some pretty strong grounds to base a claim on. I would imagine that any school administrator who knows about this rule would not permit any alum in the room as a "coach.
The second issue is one of all the training, background checks, and certifications that coaches today have to meet. If this is required of all "certified" coaches, why would it be any different for an alum?
I suspect that the fact that a college wrestler home for a break needs to practice would not be of any concern to the OHSAA.
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  #9  
Old 10-11-18, 06:23 PM
Eagle112 Eagle112 is offline
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I agree that this will become a big deal and from a liability standpoint cannot be ignored. It seems the new admin at OHSAA is enforcing the rules on the books. Boy this sounds familiar.. haha
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  #10  
Old 10-11-18, 07:46 PM
bucksman bucksman is offline
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It's pretty much always been on the OHSAA sports regulations, and it's one for every sport.

Per OHSAA regulation and state law, all "coaches" must meet the defined requirements - paid OR volunteer. Those participating in a practice are either student-athletes (i.e. in high school) or coaches

In a sport where alumni games are played during the "season" period, they are considered one of the defined scrimmages (i.e. soccer)

Some school systems have chosen to enforce this in the recent past. Evidently others did not. I have no idea if OHSAA will actually be "clamping down" on this, and/or how they play on doing it.

As a whole, this is a LIABILITY issue, which is why those school systems that have enforced this in the recent past have chosen to do so.
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  #11  
Old 10-11-18, 08:33 PM
cruiser_96 cruiser_96 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BHiatt View Post
OHSAA is just saying: "SHOW ME THE MONEY!!!!"

Alumni coming into the room once or twice a year is not a coach. Alumni coming into the room 2x a week, different story.
DING! DING! DING!!!

We have a winner.

For anyone to be in the wrestling room, paperwork had to be filed.

Wrestler? Better have a physical on file and have paid the P2P and/or school fees
Coach? Better have all SEVEN pieces of paperwork on file.
Anyone else - they will fall under one of the above and have all required paperwork or they wonít be in the room.
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  #12  
Old 10-12-18, 07:41 AM
innoshape innoshape is offline
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Jim nailed it. This ain't back in the day.
When I coached several years ago, our AD would periodically patrol our wrestling room and make us kick out anybody, including alumni wrestlers, that did not have the proper "paperwork" for coaching (Pupil Activity Permit, Background Check, CPR/First Aid/Concussion/Sportsmanship classes, and Board Approval, etc)
He made it clear that if something happened, i.e., a student wrestler got hurt, then it would not only be liability for the School, but also for all of the Coaches.
I am not an expert on insurance coverage, but it would be risky to think a coach would be "personally" covered under the school insurance under these circumstances.
Probably better off finding a local gym where any wrestler can work out off campus and the parents can sign release forms. Just my 2 cents
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  #13  
Old 10-12-18, 08:26 AM
LHS WRESTLING LHS WRESTLING is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by innoshape View Post
Jim nailed it. This ain't back in the day.
When I coached several years ago, our AD would periodically patrol our wrestling room and make us kick out anybody, including alumni wrestlers, that did not have the proper "paperwork" for coaching (Pupil Activity Permit, Background Check, CPR/First Aid/Concussion/Sportsmanship classes, and Board Approval, etc)
He made it clear that if something happened, i.e., a student wrestler got hurt, then it would not only be liability for the School, but also for all of the Coaches.
I am not an expert on insurance coverage, but it would be risky to think a coach would be "personally" covered under the school insurance under these circumstances.
Probably better off finding a local gym where any wrestler can work out off campus and the parents can sign release forms. Just my 2 cents
I had a former principal of mine (highly respected in education/35 PLUS years/ and a current superintendent) tell me that wrestling is the one sport that constantly places its coaches in harms way in terms of a legal standpoint.

He said coaches who wrestle the athletes (even if they are certified) are placed in a bad situation legally if they hurt the athlete, and he would recommend never wrestling them. He stated that if something happened injury wise to an athlete while wrestling a coach, legally that coach would be in a very bad spot.

He also said if something catastrophic happened while wrestling a student athlete (god forbid), the coach/teacher would almost certainly be held legally responsible, and he basically termed it "career suicide". I have always thought about what he told me, especially when I see young/certified coaches literally beat the hell out of young kids. Not a great way to live your coaching life, but it is something to think about in this day and age.

Last edited by LHS WRESTLING; 10-12-18 at 11:54 AM.
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  #14  
Old 10-12-18, 08:48 AM
wash.c.h.legend wash.c.h.legend is offline
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Since I have coached at McClain, anyone in the room needs to have jumped through all of the necessary hoops. District protection.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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  #15  
Old 10-12-18, 09:00 AM
scbuckeye99 scbuckeye99 is offline
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In South Carolina we do NOT have a state wide mandate on this. However, my school district says that any adult that volunteers to work with the kids in the room or even sit in a chair during matches has to fill out paperwork with the district, get all the necessary certifications and meet with the building AD and Principal prior to any activities


NOW....with that being said if we have a former athlete home on vacation or leave or something and they wanna come roll for a day. Nobody has to know ;-).

But in all seriousness it's entirely about liability. From a school and district's perspective you can't have "random" people coming in and working with kids without the school and or district at least doing some kind of background check....yes even on your alums.

This is a day and age where we all know how cautious everyone has to be from a legal standpoint.
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  #16  
Old 10-12-18, 10:03 AM
innoshape innoshape is offline
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Great points above about Coaches wrestling their wrestlers and who sits in the corner chairs at events.
Many of us who coached probably live wrestled their wrestlers in the room at some point. With that in mind, you gotta wonder if you can even demonstrate a move on a kid without risk anymore so demonstrate moves on other coaches I guess.
As a side note, you also gotta watch out for heavier kids working out with lighter kids, although common sense, you don't want a 113 pound kid going home hurt telling folks that the he got hurt wrestling the 220 pounder.

Who is sitting in the coaching chairs can be a debacle especially during tournaments when you are short on certified coaches or when a wrestler wants Dad, Mom or alumni training partner in the chair or they just show up in the chair. Refs do help out by sometimes requiring coaching lanyards or asking questions. Even then, folks sneak in the chairs during the chaos. No joy in telling a Dad he can't sit in the chair then the kid gets upset and loses focus, BUT if they are not trained in first aid or Concussions, etc., you as the coach could be in a real pickle if something happens. Explaining "the coaching chair rule" and the reasoning to parents in the pre-season meeting may help alleviate some of this, but be prepared for it to happen anyway.

Last edited by innoshape; 10-12-18 at 10:07 AM. Reason: addition
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  #17  
Old 10-12-18, 09:12 PM
marksteen marksteen is offline
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This has been a rule in Pennsylvania for years and years. Hard to enforce but things come up when Timmies family never liked Johnnie’s family and John older brother came back for Xmas break .... annnnnnd the school just happened to have camera’s in the practice room. The challenge flag gets thrown.... “Upon further review Johnny brother needs keep his butt out”!

Going a step further in PA is ALSO a rule that coaches and approved staff which includes recent graduates ARE NOT permitted to drill, roll around, spar or go live with wrestlers on the team. I anticipate all the replies being wth and how can you police it....again as always one in the bunch makes the basket spoil. Case and point in Pgh area at a well known school someone daddy didn’t like someone from years gone past. Heavier/Upper weight size guys need partners and who better to fill that role than a coach? Until one wrestler gets hurt while wrestling with the said coach.... challenge flag comes out and all hell breaks loose due to a helicopter parent with a score to settle and put a coach in his place. Gets flavored as the coach did it on purpose and had no business doing that and Coach was to tough or rough !

Last edited by marksteen; 10-12-18 at 09:16 PM. Reason: Grammar
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  #18  
Old 10-18-18, 09:05 AM
bigredcoach bigredcoach is offline
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Basketball always has "open gyms" where alumni come in a play with current athletes. Whose to say that when a wrestler comes in, when it is season it is considered an "open mat"
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  #19  
Old 10-18-18, 10:51 AM
LHS WRESTLING LHS WRESTLING is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigredcoach View Post
Basketball always has "open gyms" where alumni come in a play with current athletes. Whose to say that when a wrestler comes in, when it is season it is considered an "open mat"
"open gyms" for basketball season is only during the off-season I thought? Am I wrong?
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  #20  
Old 10-18-18, 11:08 AM
Jim Behrens Jim Behrens is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigredcoach View Post
Basketball always has "open gyms" where alumni come in a play with current athletes. Whose to say that when a wrestler comes in, when it is season it is considered an "open mat"
Show this rule to your administration and see what they say.
The rule seems to be pretty clear in wording and intent.
I would guess that the basketball "open gyms" will go away as well.
Chances of someone getting hurt might be small but most administrators are likely to tell you that alumni are not to be in the room.
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  #21  
Old 10-18-18, 02:13 PM
BHiatt BHiatt is offline
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People with a sense of sanity need to say these are bs rules - and the law should tell these people who sue to shove it but alas

I loathe the PC / CYA world.
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  #22  
Old 10-18-18, 05:05 PM
bucksman bucksman is offline
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By DEFINITION the concept of an "open gym" (or open field, or whatever) is an OUTSIDE the season event. That being OHSAA definition. During the season, anything sanctioned by the school is a practice.
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  #23  
Old 10-19-18, 06:20 AM
Oilers63 Oilers63 is offline
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is it fair to say that a coach in baseball that throws BP to a player is Illegal? what if he hits them with a ball... This is non sense but also the times we live in...proceed with caution.
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  #24  
Old 10-19-18, 06:25 AM
Suplexer130 Suplexer130 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oilers63 View Post
is it fair to say that a coach in baseball that throws BP to a player is Illegal? what if he hits them with a ball... This is non sense but also the times we live in...proceed with caution.
If he is a coach he is allowed to do anything he'd like. If he hits them that is where being an employee of the district with all of their lawyers and protections comes in. Having the proper certifications protects him outside of gross negligence of course (Aiming for the kids heads for example).
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  #25  
Old 10-19-18, 08:59 AM
innoshape innoshape is offline
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I think I get what you are saying Oilers63, a certified baseball coach throwing a bad pitch at one of his players and hurting them would be treated the same as a wrestling coach live wrestling one of his wrestlers and hurting them too based on scenerios shared by LHS in post #13 and marksteen in post #17.
We could go on and on with this, even with the not-so-rough sports:
Golf coach shanks a ball into one of his players, volleyball coach spike a ball in the face of one of her players...
No coach in our examples INTENDED to hurt anybody. But does it matter anymore?
Suplexer is right, "certified coaches" do enjoy protection to a certain extent. Unfortunately, that extent of protection is muddier in today's times. Yep, proceed with caution.
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  #26  
Old 10-19-18, 09:58 AM
Penguin Penguin is offline
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With all the cameras, phones and security these days, its not surprising administrators are scared of accidents involving non certified coaches. It would seem that a background check and interview would be enough for these alumni to hang around with out having to go through all the extensive coaching requirements. In short, create a new level of certification to roll.
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