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  #1  
Old 02-22-18, 07:15 AM
eliwes eliwes is online now
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Big Ten Championships

Some weights are easy to pick
125-Nato
133-Micic
141-McKenna
149-Retherford
157-Nolf
165-Martinez
174-Hall
184-Nickal
197-Moore
Hvy-Snyder
Bonus points win it for Penn State
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  #2  
Old 02-22-18, 08:48 AM
CoachHoversten CoachHoversten is offline
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I know you said "some" are easy to pick, but I would not bet on Nato, McKenna, Moore, or even Snyder at this point....hopefully Moore has just been sick and will return to form...Nato has Suriano and Lee to worry about, and seeing as he will be the 2 or 3 seed, he will have to beat both, not just one of them, McKenna has shown flashes and seems to be peaking at the right time so he could pull it out, and I trust that Snyder will find a way, but he still has to find a way to take down Coon.

Snyder is the best in the world, losing to a guy 50lbs+ heavier than him does not change that. Pretty sure the best 125 in NCAA would lose to the #20 184lb'er.

I am out of the loop....is Nolf expected back?
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  #3  
Old 02-22-18, 09:09 AM
Coach Root Coach Root is offline
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I'm in a different camp... I think most of these are very difficult to pick. I love the Big 10's because there's no place to hide.

125 3 different guys that nobody would be surprised if they won (Suriano, Lee, NATO)
133 2 different guys that nobody would be surprised if the won (Micic, Pletcher)
141 2 different guys that nobody would be surprised if the won (McKenna, Lee)
149 1 man stands alone (Retherford) although Sorenson has pushed him in the past and Deakin is a freak
157 2 different guys that nobody would be surprised if they won (Nolf, Kemerer) + Pantaleo is dangerous
165 3 different guys that nobody would be surprised if they won (Martinez, Marinelli, Cenzo)
174 3 different guys that nobody would be surprised if they won (Hall, Jordan, Amine)
184 2 different guys that nobody would be surprised if they won (Nickal, Martin) + Abonaider who I felt had Nickal beat
197 2 different guys that nobody would be surprised if they won (Rasheed, Moore)
285 2 different guys that nobody would be surprised if they won Coon, Snyder)


Looking at any one of these, outside of 149, as an easy pick would be tough. Full disclosure, I'm a Penn State guy at heart, but l think this is Ohio States to lose at Big 10's.


Coach Root
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  #4  
Old 02-22-18, 09:33 AM
wrestling125 wrestling125 is offline
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125-Lee
133-Micic
141-McKenna
149-Retherford
157-Nolf
165-Martinez
174-Hall
184-Nickal
197-Rasheed
Hwt-Snyder
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  #5  
Old 02-22-18, 10:02 AM
ProV1 ProV1 is offline
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The B10 Championship is the 2nd most prestigious collegiate tournament. Winning is extremely important to both Penn State and Ohio State.
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  #6  
Old 02-22-18, 10:10 AM
bdhof bdhof is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachHoversten View Post
I know you said "some" are easy to pick, but I would not bet on Nato, McKenna, Moore, or even Snyder at this point....hopefully Moore has just been sick and will return to form...Nato has Suriano and Lee to worry about, and seeing as he will be the 2 or 3 seed, he will have to beat both, not just one of them, McKenna has shown flashes and seems to be peaking at the right time so he could pull it out, and I trust that Snyder will find a way, but he still has to find a way to take down Coon.

Snyder is the best in the world, losing to a guy 50lbs+ heavier than him does not change that. Pretty sure the best 125 in NCAA would lose to the #20 184lb'er.

I am out of the loop....is Nolf expected back?
This from Cael:

“It’s coming along. It’s improving. I’m not going to talk much about it, obviously. It will be kind of a game-day decision on Saturday,” Sanderson said. “Physically, he’s just a monster. He’s recovering quickly. Mentally, he’s fine. He’s a tough kid, obviously extremely tough. He’s put a lot of time in – hours – and (trainer) Dan’s (Monthley) been putting a lot of time in with him. We’re optimistic.”

Oh wait, that was Suriano last year.

In all seriousness, I, along with most wrestling fans, don't like seeing someone of Nolf's caliber getting injured and losing a chance to win another title. Cael has said something similar to the above about Nolf. I think we'll see him at the NCAAs and maybe the B10s as well. The question for the B10s is whether he will do the Suriano and MFF out or if he will wrestle, which could risk re-injuring the knee for the NCAAs. And if he does come back at either, will he be 100% (not likely), 90%, 70% or worse? I remember my rallying cry, "Wait till Hunter comes back!" Sadly, when Hunter came back he was a shadow of himself. He entered the 2013 NCAAs as a sophomore and the #1 seed, lost 7-6 in the semis and took 3rd. Then he RS and came back in 2015 as a title contender again (ranked #1). An early season injury that year lingered on for two years as I, and many of the Buckeye faithful, awaited his return to form, wondering if he'd be 100%, 90%, 70% or worse. Well, it was worse.

If Nolf is not 100% I don't see him beating Kemmerer. Depending on how far he is from 100%, he may have a rough go at it against others as well. Even if fully healthy, if you are off the mat for 6 weeks (B10) or 8 weeks (NCAAs) coming back at 100% isn't likely. Loss of mat time does make a difference. Now Nolf could beat many at 90% or maybe even 80%. But maybe he goes from a dominant NCAA champ to a more ordinary human being.

Last edited by bdhof; 02-22-18 at 10:35 AM.
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  #7  
Old 02-22-18, 10:30 AM
bdhof bdhof is offline
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Originally Posted by Coach Root View Post
I'm in a different camp... I think most of these are very difficult to pick. I love the Big 10's because there's no place to hide.

125 3 different guys that nobody would be surprised if they won (Suriano, Lee, NATO)
133 2 different guys that nobody would be surprised if the won (Micic, Pletcher)
141 2 different guys that nobody would be surprised if the won (McKenna, Lee)
149 1 man stands alone (Retherford) although Sorenson has pushed him in the past and Deakin is a freak
157 2 different guys that nobody would be surprised if they won (Nolf, Kemerer) + Pantaleo is dangerous
165 3 different guys that nobody would be surprised if they won (Martinez, Marinelli, Cenzo)
174 3 different guys that nobody would be surprised if they won (Hall, Jordan, Amine)
184 2 different guys that nobody would be surprised if they won (Nickal, Martin) + Abonaider who I felt had Nickal beat
197 2 different guys that nobody would be surprised if they won (Rasheed, Moore)
285 2 different guys that nobody would be surprised if they won Coon, Snyder)


Looking at any one of these, outside of 149, as an easy pick would be tough. Full disclosure, I'm a Penn State guy at heart, but l think this is Ohio States to lose at Big 10's.


Coach Root
I agree with your analysis, other than you saying the B10 is tOSU's to lose. Now if Nolf does not wrestle, I would agree. I think either team is capable of winning it, giving PSU an edge with a fairly healthy Nolf, and tOSU an edge if Nolf MFFs out. Either way, either team could win it. Per current B10 rankings I give PSU a 14 point edge (w/ bonus points) with a 100% Nolf, and tOSU an 10.5 point edge w/ a Nolf MFF. A swing of 10 to 15 points isn't that much to overcome.

Last edited by bdhof; 02-23-18 at 07:39 AM.
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  #8  
Old 02-22-18, 10:36 AM
Coach Root Coach Root is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdhof View Post
This from Cael:

ďItís coming along. Itís improving. Iím not going to talk much about it, obviously. It will be kind of a game-day decision on Saturday,Ē Sanderson said. ďPhysically, heís just a monster. Heís recovering quickly. Mentally, heís fine. Heís a tough kid, obviously extremely tough. Heís put a lot of time in Ė hours Ė and (trainer) Danís (Monthley) been putting a lot of time in with him. Weíre optimistic.Ē

Oh wait, that was Suriano last year.

In all seriousness, I, along with most wrestling fans, don't like seeing someone of Nolf's caliber getting injured and losing a chance to win another title. Cael has said something similar to the above about Nolf. I think we'll see him at the NCAAs and maybe the B10s as well. The question for the B10s is whether he will do the Suriano and MFF out or if he will wrestle, which could risk re-injuring the knee for the NCAAs. And if he does come back at either, will he be 100% (not likely), 90%, 70% or worse? I remember my rallying cry, "Wait till Hunter comes back!" Sadly, when Hunter came back he was a shadow of himself. He entered the 2013 NCAAs as a sophomore and the #1 seed, lost 7-6 in the semis and took 3rd. Then he RS and came back in 2015 as a title contender again (ranked #1). An early season injury that year lingered on for two years as I, and many of the Buckeye faithful, awaited his return to form, wondering if he'd be 100%, 90%, 70% or worse. Well, it was worse.

If Nolf is not 100% I don't see him beating Kemmerer. Depending on how far he is from 100%, he may have a rough go at it. Even if fully healthy, if you are off the mat for 6 weeks (B10) or 8 weeks (NCAAs) coming back at 100% isn't likely. Loss of mat time does make a difference. Now Nolf could beat many at 90% or maybe even 80%. But maybe he goes from a dominant NCAA cahmp to a more ordianry human being.
Again, I'm a PSU guy, so take that into consideration. I think Nolf returns. Is he coming back at 100%? No, but I think he'll be competitive. I disagree with the output. Nolf at 80% is better than the field. My concern would be how he holds up to the wrestlers that are able to basically rip off his knee at the college level. I think he wrestles...


Coach Root
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  #9  
Old 02-22-18, 10:39 AM
Coach Root Coach Root is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdhof View Post
I agree with your analysis, other than you saying the B10 is tOSU's to lose. Now if Nolf does not wrestle, I would agree. I think either team is capable of winning it, giving PSU an edge with a fairly healthy Nolf, and tOSU an edge if Nolf MFFs out. Either way, either team could win it. Per current B10 rankings I give PSU a 13 point edge (w/ bonus points) with a 100% Nolf, and tOSU an 11.5 point edge w/ a Nolf MFF. A swing of 10 to 15 points isn't that much to overcome.
I could see how most see it as a toss up based on the dual. The difference is PSU has guys that will struggle to score points in a tournament setting where as Ohio State can place every wrestler. Without a big field, I think this favors OSU.


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  #10  
Old 02-22-18, 10:50 AM
bdhof bdhof is offline
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Originally Posted by Coach Root View Post
I could see how most see it as a toss up based on the dual. The difference is PSU has guys that will struggle to score points in a tournament setting where as Ohio State can place every wrestler. Without a big field, I think this favors OSU.


Coach Root
Keener is likely a 6 seed, and Kuhn won't get a seed, so that gives them 9 placers. tOSU also is at 9 placers with Campbell getting a 9 seed. It gets down to where those "placers" place. Last year PSU, with 5 NCAA champs, limped out of the B10s with 2 B10 champs and the runner-up trophy. tOSU walked out with 4 B10 champs and the team championship. Obviously, that script was flipped two weeks later. It's all about performance. As you said earlier, other than 149, all weights are open for business.
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  #11  
Old 02-22-18, 11:21 AM
keithcarter keithcarter is offline
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What I find interesting is the seeding for this event and the NCAA Tourney at 125 and 174

Who gets the 1 at 125? Lee or Suriano? It matters because the opposite gets Nato in Semis

157: Pantaleo is going to cruise to finals with kemerer getting the 1 seed being the undefeated wrestler at that weight. I see nolf getting the 2 and defaulting out.

165: who gets the 1 seed? Martinez or Marinelli? Who hits joseph in the semis? Massa could be a crazy draw on this one if he gets himself right

at 174 I believe Bo has to beat Hall this time to avoid a 4 or 5 seed at NCAA's. I believe he matches up better with Hall than he does Valencia and I am guessing Valencia gets the 1 at NCAA's.

At heavy I believe Snyder will win, I haven't looked at the big ten schedule on time between semis and finals but he will have to most likely wrestle a big nevils (who I think he majors this time) and then Coon.
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  #12  
Old 02-22-18, 11:42 AM
bdhof bdhof is offline
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Originally Posted by keithcarter View Post
What I find interesting is the seeding for this event and the NCAA Tourney at 125 and 174

Who gets the 1 at 125? Lee or Suriano? It matters because the opposite gets Nato in Semis

157: Pantaleo is going to cruise to finals with kemerer getting the 1 seed being the undefeated wrestler at that weight. I see nolf getting the 2 and defaulting out.

165: who gets the 1 seed? Martinez or Marinelli? Who hits joseph in the semis? Massa could be a crazy draw on this one if he gets himself right

at 174 I believe Bo has to beat Hall this time to avoid a 4 or 5 seed at NCAA's. I believe he matches up better with Hall than he does Valencia and I am guessing Valencia gets the 1 at NCAA's.

At heavy I believe Snyder will win, I haven't looked at the big ten schedule on time between semis and finals but he will have to most likely wrestle a big nevils (who I think he majors this time) and then Coon.
125 Cruz gets #1 (undefeated NCAA champ) at NCAAs and Suriano gets #1 at B10s (Lee #2 and NaTo #3 at B10s)

157 Agree

165 IMar gets 1, the Marinelli 2, Joseph 3, Massa 7 (meets Marinelli in 1/4s).

174 Agree

285 Agree
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  #13  
Old 02-23-18, 03:01 PM
bdhof bdhof is offline
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Big Ten Championships

The injury watch list now includes Suriano along with Nolf. Suriano will have missed 4 weeks by the time the B10 rolls around. As with Nolf, I hope he's ready to go at B10s bc I enjoy watching the top guys go at it. The rumors are all over the place with Suriano - staff infection, flu and now knee (in practice). And, as with Nolf, when he returns will it be at 100%, 90% or worse. And with a month off, it's hard ot imagine him being 100%. I don't see a Suriano less than 00% beating NaTo or Lee.

Last edited by bdhof; 02-24-18 at 09:20 AM.
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  #14  
Old 02-23-18, 03:12 PM
wrestling125 wrestling125 is offline
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I would take Nolf at 70% over anyone in the country at 157, barring he does not worsen the injury. The Suriano situation is very concerning. No way he is beating the winner of Nato and Lee if he is not at 100%. Even with Suriano at 100% I would take the winner of Lee and Nato over him. If I had to pick, I would pick Lee over Nato again but Nato is not someone I have ever felt confident betting against.
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  #15  
Old 02-23-18, 03:23 PM
ncanitano ncanitano is offline
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Agree... but a 50 pound difference to a heavy is much less extreme than to a 125#. The better comparison is a 125 compared to say a 157. Regardless, the weight ratio is huge. Snyder found a way to beat Gwiz - he will find a way to beat Coon!!
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  #16  
Old 02-23-18, 04:52 PM
bdhof bdhof is offline
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Originally Posted by wrestling125 View Post
I would take Nolf at 70% over anyone in the country at 157, barring he does not worsen the injury. The Suriano situation is very concerning. No way he is beating the winner of Nato and Lee if he is not at 100%. Even with Suriano at 100% I would take the winner of Lee and Nato over him. If I had to pick, I would pick Lee over Nato again but Nato is not someone I have ever felt confident betting against.
I'll take Kemmerer over a 70% Nolf. It's hard to quantify 90%, 80%, 70% etc. when dealing with an injury. But if Nolf is not in mid season form due to his absence, but with a fairly healthy leg, I think that's a tough match for him vs Kemmerer, but he can beat anyone else and maybe Kemmerer too. If he's gimping around on it, can't drive on shots, can't pressure from the top on rides, can't move well off the bottom, then I think he could lose to a few other of the top guys like Hilday, Lavalle, and Pantaleo. Plus he won't have the tank he normally has. Good luck making it thru 5 or more matches at the NCAAs like that. At the B10s, if he wrestles, he'll get a 1st round bye and maybe limp his way past #7 and #3 Pantaleo (which he could lose) and into the finals, then get beat by Kemmerer.
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  #17  
Old 02-23-18, 05:06 PM
Pope Francis 1 Pope Francis 1 is online now
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Originally Posted by bdhof View Post
The injury watch list now includes Suriano along with Nolf. Suriano will have missed 4 weeks by the time the B10 rolls around. As with Nolf, I hope he's ready to go at B10s bc I enjoy watching the top guys go at it. The rumors are all over the place with Suriano - staff infection, flu and now knee (in practice). And, as with Nolf, when he returns will it be at 100%, 90% or worse. And with a month off, it's hard ot imagine him being 100%. I don't see a Suriano less than 00% beating NaTo or Lee.
I agree 100%
If Suriano is less than 00% I'm not sure who he beats......

Last edited by Pope Francis 1; 02-23-18 at 10:36 PM.
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  #18  
Old 02-23-18, 05:27 PM
Bear73 Bear73 is offline
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Is it my imagination or is everybody completely overlooking Richie Lewis?
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  #19  
Old 02-23-18, 06:45 PM
wrestling125 wrestling125 is offline
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Is it my imagination or is everybody completely overlooking Richie Lewis?
Richie Lewis is an excellent wrestler, but 165 is loaded at Big Tens. I could see him upsetting Marinelli, or maybe even Joseph but at the same time I could see him dropping a match to some of the 165s ranked behind him in the Big Ten. I do not think that Martinez is a good match up for him and could not see him being in that bout.
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  #20  
Old 02-23-18, 07:15 PM
eliwes eliwes is online now
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Is it my imagination or is everybody completely overlooking Richie Lewis?
He moved up in the rankings from 15 to 7. I put him up there with Walsh and McFadden.
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  #21  
Old 02-23-18, 07:20 PM
bdhof bdhof is offline
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He moved up in the rankings from 15 to 7. I put him up there with Walsh and McFadden.

Lewis is likely 4 seed and should get IMar in semis


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  #22  
Old 02-23-18, 07:51 PM
RandyLoathsome RandyLoathsome is offline
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Originally Posted by CoachHoversten View Post
I know you said "some" are easy to pick, but I would not bet on Nato, McKenna, Moore, or even Snyder at this point....hopefully Moore has just been sick and will return to form...Nato has Suriano and Lee to worry about, and seeing as he will be the 2 or 3 seed, he will have to beat both, not just one of them, McKenna has shown flashes and seems to be peaking at the right time so he could pull it out, and I trust that Snyder will find a way, but he still has to find a way to take down Coon.

Snyder is the best in the world, losing to a guy 50lbs+ heavier than him does not change that. Pretty sure the best 125 in NCAA would lose to the #20 184lb'er.

I am out of the loop....is Nolf expected back?

A 50 lb weight advantage is not the same for guys weighing over 200 lbs as it is for a 125 lb'er. In fact, a 10 lb weight disadvantage is huge for a 125 lb'er, while it's basically nothing for a heavyweight. Forget about the #20 rated 184 lb'er beating the best 125, ANY 184, in all 3 divisions, would beat the best 125 lb'er
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  #23  
Old 02-23-18, 07:58 PM
MPhillips MPhillips is offline
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What weighs more? Fifty pounds of muscle or fifty pounds of fat?
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  #24  
Old 02-23-18, 08:11 PM
Mr.wrsln2 Mr.wrsln2 is offline
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It is called heavyweight.did they just start this lb class in ohio?enough with the poundage.
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  #25  
Old 02-24-18, 12:41 AM
ProV1 ProV1 is offline
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Originally Posted by RandyLoathsome View Post
A 50 lb weight advantage is not the same for guys weighing over 200 lbs as it is for a 125 lb'er. In fact, a 10 lb weight disadvantage is huge for a 125 lb'er, while it's basically nothing for a heavyweight. Forget about the #20 rated 184 lb'er beating the best 125, ANY 184, in all 3 divisions, would beat the best 125 lb'er
Just base it on % of body weight and it will be a fair comparison.
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  #26  
Old 02-24-18, 09:36 AM
bdhof bdhof is offline
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I agree 100%
If Suriano is less than 00% I'm not sure who he beats......
Since you're obviously not in the medical profession, I explain this to you. In medical terms, less than 00% would mean someone like Anthony Robles, the AZST wrestler who won an NCAA title on one leg (literally). He was born with a birth defect without one leg (hip down). In spite of this he won the NCAA title in 2011 at 125. Since the leg is about 20% of the weight of the human body, in medical terms his medical condition was referred to as -20%. Getting back to Suriano, if he has a staff infection and they have to remove his leg, he would be less than 00% in medical terms.

Robles is one of my all time favorites. He not only overcame a huge obstacle, but he beat an Iowa kid in the finals (I don't like Iowa kids). And he is a great spokesman and ambassador for our sport (normally does TV analysis for NCAAs). He is also a motivational speaker, telling kids how to overcome obstacles in their lives.
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Old 02-24-18, 09:59 AM
Mr.wrsln2 Mr.wrsln2 is offline
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Some more % talk.bob backlund used to defeat wrestlers
150% bigger than his size!on a 86%.regular basis.
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  #28  
Old 02-24-18, 10:24 AM
Pope Francis 1 Pope Francis 1 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdhof View Post
Since you're obviously not in the medical profession, I explain this to you. In medical terms, less than 00% would mean someone like Anthony Robles, the AZST wrestler who won an NCAA title on one leg (literally). He was born with a birth defect without one leg (hip down). In spite of this he won the NCAA title in 2011 at 125. Since the leg is about 20% of the weight of the human body, in medical terms his medical condition was referred to as -20%. Getting back to Suriano, if he has a staff infection and they have to remove his leg, he would be less than 00% in medical terms.

Robles is one of my all time favorites. He not only overcame a huge obstacle, but he beat an Iowa kid in the finals (I don't like Iowa kids). And he is a great spokesman and ambassador for our sport (normally does TV analysis for NCAAs). He is also a motivational speaker, telling kids how to overcome obstacles in their lives.
More Fake News from bdhof (Big Dumpster Heap Of Fakenews)
Here's the rest of the story......
While it's common myth that Robles was born without one leg, the fact is that he had one leg amputated at an early age. Unfortunately, the doctors removed the wrong leg. He just recently had the other leg amputated and brought suit against the doctors for malpractice. The judge, unfortunately, threw out his case against the doctors because he said "Robles didn't have a leg to stand on".
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Old 02-24-18, 11:30 AM
bdhof bdhof is offline
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If Coon was -20% (missing one leg) he would weigh about the same as Snyder. Then Snyder could just run around the back of him while he was on his knees, wait for the ref to signal "2," run around front and wait for the ref to signal "1," and keep repeating this scenario much like he did against Boykin, NCST last weekend. Boykin, BTW, does have both legs but he decided that the best strategy vs Snyder was to stay on his knees and watch Snyder run circles around him, which Snyder happily did.
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  #30  
Old 02-24-18, 11:40 AM
wrestling125 wrestling125 is offline
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Pretty crazy that Gasca (MSU) made the Big Ten Finals last year at 141 and now is ranked 12th at the same weight. What a time to be alive.
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