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  #1  
Old 09-09-18, 08:11 AM
tuscoslimshady tuscoslimshady is offline
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Artificial Turf Questions

With turf everywhere and its many benefits obvious are there any drawbacks or problems having it.
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  #2  
Old 09-09-18, 08:48 AM
VVTommyBoy VVTommyBoy is offline
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I'm sure some people can give a better answer than me but, I'd say that whatever you save in maintenance ( and there will still be some costs ) should go to its replacement. Heard that it can get much hotter than natural grass but, seems better than the original Astroturf to me.

Some players or former players, coaches or parents that have kids can probably input something about injuries attributed to this stuff as opposed to real grass. I'm glad it has developed for the better over time and can't imagine not having it.
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Old 09-09-18, 08:52 AM
CoachJules CoachJules is offline
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If properly maintained, turf's pros outweigh the cons. Unfortunately, most schools do not properly maintain their turf. Thus, turf fields usually have to be replaced within 10 years and are breeding grounds for bacteria and viruses. During the summer the field is at least 10 degrees warmer than the temperature. Finally, we don't know if turf can lead to increases in cancer because of the toxins in the synthetic turf. Some people claim that they have seen an increase in this, especially soccer players. Too early to tell if this is because of turf or coincedence.
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  #4  
Old 09-09-18, 11:01 AM
COACH_XYZ&12345 COACH_XYZ&12345 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachJules View Post
If properly maintained, turf's pros outweigh the cons. Unfortunately, most schools do not properly maintain their turf. Thus, turf fields usually have to be replaced within 10 years and are breeding grounds for bacteria and viruses. During the summer the field is at least 10 degrees warmer than the temperature. Finally, we don't know if turf can lead to increases in cancer because of the toxins in the synthetic turf. Some people claim that they have seen an increase in this, especially soccer players. Too early to tell if this is because of turf or coincedence.

Not sure I buy into the carcinogen theory, but I'd vouch ACL injuries are a major issue/concern.
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Old 09-09-18, 11:17 AM
VVTommyBoy VVTommyBoy is offline
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The alleged link to cancer is a true concern. Read where they worry most about soccer goalkeepers. Maybe they dive face first more often. Not sure anyone knows anything for sure.

This stuff is like any carpet...sweep it, clean it. If you take shortcuts to save money, it won't last as long. Those little black pieces of rubber seem to be what they think could be a problem.
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  #6  
Old 09-09-18, 11:29 AM
doverbuck doverbuck is offline
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I have concerns with replacement cost. We are at the mercy of the manufacturer from here on out,if the price of oil goes up or they just decide to raise the price for more profits a $300,000 bill today might be double or might be a million,who knows.
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  #7  
Old 09-09-18, 11:29 AM
The Dock The Dock is offline
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Yeah, as mentioned above, there is the credible concern about carcinogenic materials w/ turf fields.

Side-bar: isn’t an ingredient in artificial turf surfaces bits and pieces of old tires?
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  #8  
Old 09-09-18, 12:28 PM
scbuckeye99 scbuckeye99 is offline
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Lima Senior just replaced there turf this summer in 2018 after having it first installed back in 2006. wonder what the cost of mowing and fertilizing grass for a football field is over a 12 year period. cost of labor to mow and seed over 12 years v. cost of labor to install once every 12 years. factor in also with many schools now having all their sports use the surface versus upkeep on multiple grass fields. i know when lima stadium was grass the only only team(s) who used it were 9th, jv and varsity football teams along with the middle school football teams. soccer used their own field. now with turf soccer both boys ans girls play on it.

I just remember playing at dayton welcome stadium back in the mid 90s and thinking someone just tossed a rug over a concrete block. massillon back in the mid 90s had a softer turf surface than welcome but after playing a game at PBTS you felt like you'd just been to the beach. Sand everywhere!!!!!
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  #9  
Old 09-09-18, 12:38 PM
Old56 Old56 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuscoslimshady View Post
With turf everywhere and its many benefits obvious are there any drawbacks or problems having it.
Itís the way to go.
Eliminates a practice field as well as that maintenance.
Itís easier and safer on your body overall.
The cushion of the field can stay consistent year round unlike a grass field.
Many benefits
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  #10  
Old 09-09-18, 12:45 PM
Hammerdrill Hammerdrill is offline
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It is a myth that it is cheaper to maintain, particularity when maintained as it should be. Lower extremity injuries have been shown to be more common on that surface too, likely due to it not releasing, like real grass will. Add in the crazy cost to install, then the likely $300,000 replacement cost 10 years later, it is really just a bad idea for most schools.
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  #11  
Old 09-09-18, 12:48 PM
Hammerdrill Hammerdrill is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scbuckeye99 View Post
Lima Senior just replaced there turf this summer in 2018 after having it first installed back in 2006. wonder what the cost of mowing and fertilizing grass for a football field is over a 12 year period. cost of labor to mow and seed over 12 years v. cost of labor to install once every 12 years. factor in also with many schools now having all their sports use the surface versus upkeep on multiple grass fields. i know when lima stadium was grass the only only team(s) who used it were 9th, jv and varsity football teams along with the middle school football teams. soccer used their own field. now with turf soccer both boys ans girls play on it.

I just remember playing at dayton welcome stadium back in the mid 90s and thinking someone just tossed a rug over a concrete block. massillon back in the mid 90s had a softer turf surface than welcome but after playing a game at PBTS you felt like you'd just been to the beach. Sand everywhere!!!!!
When people think it is cheaper, they like to look at only one half of the equation. They love to point out how many more teams can use it. Then of course fail to point out that the more who use it, the sooner it will need to be replaced.
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  #12  
Old 09-09-18, 12:50 PM
Hammerdrill Hammerdrill is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dock View Post
Yeah, as mentioned above, there is the credible concern about carcinogenic materials w/ turf fields.

Side-bar: isnít an ingredient in artificial turf surfaces bits and pieces of old tires?
Yes, which contain heavy metals. Or you can really spend a bunch of money and have the infill made from old tennis shoes, instead of old tires.
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  #13  
Old 09-09-18, 01:14 PM
Sykotyk Sykotyk is offline
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My HS switched to turf but instead of the granulated rubber, they use these small clear plastic beads. I believe the major concern is the potential of a cancer risk. Also, the beads are less able to get into eyes, cuts, nose, etc. Because the beads are larger than the dust you see from the ground rubber.

The main benefit is more use and consistency conditions for games.

Bacteria is an issue and schools do need to sanitize the field to kill bacteria. And it is hotter, as mentioned. One game I was on the sideline felt like standing on a frying pan. Your feet just got hot and you could feel the heat rising up from it. Plus some turf gets a shiny complexion and can create a glare. Grass doesn't.

You do have to "fluff" the turf so it doesn't flatten and add infill frequently. But you save the mowing, seeding, fertilizing, weeding, painting, etc as well.
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  #14  
Old 09-09-18, 01:16 PM
clarkgriswold clarkgriswold is offline
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....or you can have grass and get it good and thick with some good old fashioned weed and feed that contains...carcinogens. There are no easy answers.
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  #15  
Old 09-09-18, 01:20 PM
Curious One Curious One is offline
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Biggest issue in my mind is that schools never leave money sitting around so the savings that could be invested in replacement costs is spent elsewhere.
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  #16  
Old 09-09-18, 01:52 PM
tuscoslimshady tuscoslimshady is offline
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Thanks to all,appreciate the info,thanks again!!
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  #17  
Old 09-09-18, 02:00 PM
Carrolldad Carrolldad is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VVTommyBoy View Post
The alleged link to cancer is a true concern. Read where they worry most about soccer goalkeepers. Maybe they dive face first more often. Not sure anyone knows anything for sure.

This stuff is like any carpet...sweep it, clean it. If you take shortcuts to save money, it won't last as long. Those little black pieces of rubber seem to be what they think could be a problem.
My daughter was a goalkeeper and was made to undress in the garage after a game on turf.Those little rubber balls are hard to clean up once in the house. They have also documented an increase risk of cancer and allergies in children that live closer to highways. It has been found to be due to the rubber dust in the air from automobile tires. I can see the same ting happening from the turf.
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  #18  
Old 09-09-18, 02:58 PM
VVTommyBoy VVTommyBoy is offline
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I have relatives that had to volunteer to re-sod grass fields for their kids Catholic school. Anyway, I used to fuss ( not sure if it was fair or not ) when football had to share with soccer. Grass fields were a mess by the end of the season. No wonder tournaments at neutral fields are on turf.

If schools aren't prepared for replacement, guessing it is harder to raise the money a 2nd time and they'll probably keep the current field beyond its useful life. This is still a fairly new situation around here. I still think the new stuff is better than the original "Astroturf" and the ground isn't as hot. I'm sure someone continues to try improving things.
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  #19  
Old 09-09-18, 03:01 PM
Blue Jay Fan Blue Jay Fan is offline
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In Delphos the city owns the field and both St. John's and Jefferson play on it along with all four Delphos midget football teams. The Parks Dept. said there will be 54 games on the field in 2018. Turf is something that's really needed but the installation cost and later replacement costs are of great concern. Hopefully with turf becoming more common the cost will come down.
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  #20  
Old 09-09-18, 03:08 PM
simkon simkon is offline
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Originally Posted by Blue Jay Fan View Post
Hopefully with turf becoming more common the cost will come down.
The costs will not come down, they will only go up to think the price will go down is foolish.
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  #21  
Old 09-09-18, 05:38 PM
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Mr. Slippery Mr. Slippery is offline
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The costs will not come down, they will only go up to think the price will go down is foolish.
Agreed. There are significantly more companies manufacturing and installing this stuff now than there were 15-20 years ago, yet the average costs haven't decreased over time. Just like with other building projects, the cost of the materials involved continues to increase.

Last edited by Mr. Slippery; 09-09-18 at 06:38 PM.
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Old 09-09-18, 06:12 PM
eastisbest eastisbest is offline
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For maintenance, you have to get a couple of these. Kid will work under the table, saving costs.



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  #23  
Old 09-09-18, 06:43 PM
Pope Francis 1 Pope Francis 1 is offline
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I can’t make a comparison between turf and grass as I’ve never tried smoking turf.
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  #24  
Old 09-09-18, 06:47 PM
Spread All Day Spread All Day is offline
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My school is finally getting turf next season. Right now we have a grass field. All that work is now gone. We have a huge practice field. Gone. Our soccer team currently plays at YSU which we pay for. That cost is gone. Our baseball team practices at astros or cene. That cost is gone. It is going to help my school out so much.


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  #25  
Old 09-09-18, 08:04 PM
serpico serpico is offline
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Originally Posted by simkon View Post
The costs will not come down, they will only go up to think the price will go down is foolish.
How much was a 32-inch flat screen TV in 2003?
How much is one in 2018?

Granted, turf fields and TVs arenít the same thing, but I donít think itís unreasinable to think with more turf vendors the cost could go down.
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Old 09-09-18, 08:16 PM
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I agree the cost to install and maintain the artificial turf is high and possibly higher than real grass maintenance. However, with increased functionality and usage I think the turf becomes a better deal. As mentioned up-thread, it can mean less maintenance on a practice field / jr high field / separate soccer field / etc. It also likely should mean more usage, perhaps by muni league or other events / tournaments (soccer, track, more)/ band-o-ramas / graduations / etc. The opportunity for a stadium to bring in bits of extra revenue from rental / concessions exists more in a turf stadium.
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Old 09-10-18, 01:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serpico View Post
How much was a 32-inch flat screen TV in 2003?
How much is one in 2018?

Granted, turf fields and TVs aren’t the same thing, but I don’t think it’s unreasinable to think with more turf vendors the cost could go down.
No they aren't. How much demand is there for a 32-inch flat screen TV in 2018 vs. 2003? The market is constantly flooded with cheap electronics that have become rather obsolete to consumers. It would be like buying spoiled milk or stale bread. Until field turf becomes obsolete, the price isn't going to come down. More vendors in the industry can also potentially increase the price if some of the raw materials involved are hard to come by because more vendors means more demand for those precious raw materials. Lastly, the turf installation process is rather labor intensive. The installation crew members probably get a raise every year, and that cost gets passed on to the customer, too.

New construction companies spring up all the time, but the cost of new building and highway projects generally don't decrease, do they?
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Old 09-10-18, 01:27 AM
Spartan87 Spartan87 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scbuckeye99 View Post
Lima Senior just replaced there turf this summer in 2018 after having it first installed back in 2006. wonder what the cost of mowing and fertilizing grass for a football field is over a 12 year period. cost of labor to mow and seed over 12 years v. cost of labor to install once every 12 years. factor in also with many schools now having all their sports use the surface versus upkeep on multiple grass fields. i know when lima stadium was grass the only only team(s) who used it were 9th, jv and varsity football teams along with the middle school football teams. soccer used their own field. now with turf soccer both boys ans girls play on it.

I just remember playing at dayton welcome stadium back in the mid 90s and thinking someone just tossed a rug over a concrete block. massillon back in the mid 90s had a softer turf surface than welcome but after playing a game at PBTS you felt like you'd just been to the beach. Sand everywhere!!!!!
Add lacrosse, the Lima Midget Association and if they come back, the Lima Warriors who now play at Allen East. Also Lima Central Catholic Football and boys and girls soccer play at Spartan Stadium.
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  #29  
Old 09-10-18, 03:09 AM
simkon simkon is offline
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Granted, turf fields and TVs arenít the same thing, but I donít think itís unreasinable to think with more turf vendors the cost could go down.
Well in actuality it is very unreasonable to think that. John Q Public may not understand why the cost will continually go up, but having experience as a project estimator, I can tell you the cost of labor/man hours never goes down nor does the cost of mobilization for equipment or for rental fees or the cost to operate the equipment. Generally speaking the cost of raw materials is variable, and the cost will only go down for a specific raw material only when a more desirable, better material is found so demand for the obsolete material in turn goes down but even then the cost of everything else continuously goes up. The only way the cost could eventually go down is in the distant future there may be no labor costs if the work is performed by automated machinery or robots. Or a new simpler and quicker method of installation is found but again that is at least 20 or 30 years in the future.

Attempting to use the analogy of television sets is pretty stupid. The manufacturing costs of TV sets really is completely unrelated to the costs of installation for an artifical surface.


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  #30  
Old 09-10-18, 06:26 AM
cincifbfan cincifbfan is offline
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I have wondered this exact thing and posted this question last year and nobody, I mean nobody has been able to answer it concretely. Not 1 school has been able to produce any documentation whatsoever that the Turf is more cost effective over time. New turf from grass conversion costs about 700k or so. Then it needs replaced after 10 years at a cost of 300k. Thats 100k per year for turf, not including the required maintenance. I have a hard time believing maintaining a grass field, even multiple grass fields is costing 100k per year, and if they are, I need to switch jobs immediately and become a groundskeeper for a local high school that has grass.

The other issue, while it is a consistent surface, and very predictable, is turf creating more concussions? Again, it is not a scientific study, but my observation is WAY MORE concussions on Turf.

Now, I am not ripping on Turf, I am a huge fan. But if anyone has connections to a school or district that will give them the cost comparisons, I'd love to see it. From a cost perspective, until proven otherwise, I think Grass is the way to go.
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