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  #61  
Old 05-19-17, 10:35 AM
14Red 14Red is offline
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Originally Posted by Possessed View Post
Never woulda happened if he only had a dog...
Sadly Possessed, there are many out there who will not blame him for this tragic act. It's always someone else's fault.
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  #62  
Old 05-22-17, 09:55 AM
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Never woulda happened if he only had a dog...
just what schools need a bunch of whiny little kids walking around with their pet Cujos.
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  #63  
Old 05-23-17, 11:35 AM
Descartes Descartes is online now
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I get that kids need to toughen up, but you older people have to realize the impact of social media and how stuff like this spreads. Think of the scene in the Karate Kid when Daniel gets his azz kicked on the beach. Humiliating having that happen in front of a small group of people, now imagine if that was uploaded to Twitter and YouTube for the whole world to see.
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  #64  
Old 06-05-17, 09:03 AM
14Red 14Red is offline
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More examples....

Saw a school in Indiana that has eliminated the class ranking system, no valedictorian, no salutatorian. Reason...and I'm not joking...to eliminate academic competition.

We're getting to a point where we can't applaud, congratulate, honor and appreciate hard work because it may hurt others feelings??? As I understand, this is happening more and more with high schools.
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  #65  
Old 06-05-17, 10:32 AM
Zunardo Zunardo is offline
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Originally Posted by 14Red View Post
More examples....

Saw a school in Indiana that has eliminated the class ranking system, no valedictorian, no salutatorian. Reason...and I'm not joking...to eliminate academic competition.

We're getting to a point where we can't applaud, congratulate, honor and appreciate hard work because it may hurt others feelings??? As I understand, this is happening more and more with high schools.
Here ya go, 14Red, a good start to read up on the justification for this trend. The comments at the end of the article are interesting.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.a32e09693a61
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  #66  
Old 06-05-17, 10:55 AM
14Red 14Red is offline
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Originally Posted by Zunardo View Post
Here ya go, 14Red, a good start to read up on the justification for this trend. The comments at the end of the article are interesting.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.a32e09693a61
Interesting theory...but how do you evaluate kids and what they are learning, and how do you evaluate the teachers who teach them? There has to be some kind of evaluation system so you see who's doing what.
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  #67  
Old 06-05-17, 11:00 AM
19AL63 19AL63 is offline
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I read most of his points and he seems to agree with the everyone gets a trophy idea. My question is without class ranking how are the people that give out scholarships going to pick the winners? Just put everyone's name in a hat? My grandson worked hard, got great grades, was second in his class and won a five year everything paid for scholarship. With out GPA and rankings I could see him not getting a free education for his hard work,
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  #68  
Old 06-05-17, 11:13 AM
14Red 14Red is offline
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Originally Posted by 19AL63 View Post
I read most of his points and he seems to agree with the everyone gets a trophy idea. My question is without class ranking how are the people that give out scholarships going to pick the winners? Just put everyone's name in a hat? My grandson worked hard, got great grades, was second in his class and won a five year everything paid for scholarship. With out GPA and rankings I could see him not getting a free education for his hard work,
I think the position of the article is that the colleges would have to come up with their own evaluation system, or the ACT/ SAT would stay in place and that would help colleges evaluate students. Which it would, but I see the class rankings Val/ Sal is a culmination of 4 years of hard work and should be held in high regard. In a day and age where we go overboard in awarding kids, why would you want to take this one away that is a legitimate long-term accomplishment?
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  #69  
Old 06-05-17, 12:09 PM
serpico serpico is offline
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I know some local schools have done away with the Valedictorian/Salutatorian awards, and for good reason, I believe. Unless kids are taking the exact same classes how are their GPAs comparable?
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  #70  
Old 06-05-17, 12:27 PM
jmog jmog is offline
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1. Getting rid of the Val/Sal awards and getting rid of academic competition is quite frankly one of the dumbest ideas I have ever heard.
2. This is coming from someone who was technically "screwed" out of being valedictorian on HS (long story, but I got 4.0 for As in college calculus while my class mates got 5.0 for As in HS precalculus, I was taking college classes in the afternoon to better myself and getting lower GPA for it, was #1 in my class going into Senior year, got straight As, and dropped to 3rd).

Was I happy? no, but at the end of the day I didn't care that much because I knew going in that my choice had that possible outcome but my choice would better my future career.

This is the high school equivalent of participation awards.
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  #71  
Old 06-05-17, 12:29 PM
Taco MacArthur Taco MacArthur is offline
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Originally Posted by serpico View Post
I know some local schools have done away with the Valedictorian/Salutatorian awards, and for good reason, I believe. Unless kids are taking the exact same classes how are their GPAs comparable?
Which is why weighted GPA is a thing.
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  #72  
Old 06-05-17, 12:56 PM
serpico serpico is offline
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Originally Posted by jmog View Post
1. Getting rid of the Val/Sal awards and getting rid of academic competition is quite frankly one of the dumbest ideas I have ever heard.
2. This is coming from someone who was technically "screwed" out of being valedictorian on HS (long story, but I got 4.0 for As in college calculus while my class mates got 5.0 for As in HS precalculus, I was taking college classes in the afternoon to better myself and getting lower GPA for it, was #1 in my class going into Senior year, got straight As, and dropped to 3rd).

Was I happy? no, but at the end of the day I didn't care that much because I knew going in that my choice had that possible outcome but my choice would better my future career.

This is the high school equivalent of participation awards.
You clearly chose the more difficult option and still got A's, and your classmates chose the easier option and were Valedictorian(s) instead.

Isn't THAT more like a participation award?
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  #73  
Old 06-05-17, 12:57 PM
serpico serpico is offline
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Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
Which is why weighted GPA is a thing.
I understand what weighted GPA is, but it's far from perfect.
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  #74  
Old 06-05-17, 06:57 PM
eastisbest eastisbest is offline
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Class rank is used by at least some major public universities to provide opportunity to students of lower performing schools. Premises being they do not have the same access to teaching and instructional tools quality of more economically sound schools but that given the right college pre-requisits, their competitive nature which got them to the top will kick in and they will quickly make up the difference.

I've seen it work both ways. Some confronted with no longer being top dog see too high a wall and give up. Some do keep the blood boiling, make up the difference in the prereqs and graduate college high.

No perfect system.

I don't see anything inherently wrong with VAL/SAL even with it's imperfections and politics (we know this goes on, right?). Those in my graduating class were well respected but I've seen plenty others, not so much. It's just a tradition that in 3 months means absolutely nothing academically or socially.
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  #75  
Old 06-05-17, 07:49 PM
JediMaster JediMaster is offline
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Reward the smart kids, make them want to continue "being smart". Participation-trophy culture is a blatant indoctrination to socialism, always has been.

Some kids don't respond well when seeing others succeed and get rewarded for those successes. This is where the separation from the middle class/poor class generally takes place. The middle class folks, while not smarter than the upper class (top performers), work as hard if not harder for their grades and eventually down the line; for their jobs. The kids who see others' successes as an excuse for their own failures and inability to perform or make good choices never learn the value of hard work, let alone the overwhelming benefits of a winner-or-loser society.
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  #76  
Old 06-05-17, 08:52 PM
Zunardo Zunardo is offline
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Originally Posted by 14Red View Post
Interesting theory...but how do you evaluate kids and what they are learning, and how do you evaluate the teachers who teach them? There has to be some kind of evaluation system so you see who's doing what.
Don't go injecting logic and common sense into this.
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  #77  
Old 06-06-17, 07:16 AM
eastisbest eastisbest is offline
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Originally Posted by 14Red View Post
Interesting theory...1) but how do you evaluate kids and what they are learning, and 2) how do you evaluate the teachers who teach them? There has to be some kind of evaluation system so you see who's doing what.
1) ACT, SAT, Armed Forces evaluations, Corporate feedback on performance of graduates.... pretty much what worked before textbook company and private education money started buying off politicians.

2) Test them, regularly. With the present system set up due to the malfeasance described in response #1, you are now giving every teacher and administrator in every building in the state 2-4 weeks' pay to watch kids take common, computer administered tests not to mention the expense of the computers needed to test every student at the same time, not to mention that is lost instructional time. Meanwhile you are testing teachers only twice in their first five years and not once in the next three decades to see if they've remained competant in their subject areas and given the bid system used by union and non-union, many of those teachers are delivering instruction in material they themselves have not studied in decades.

The right, those predominantly behind this move, those who are supposed to be the ones demanding economic efficiency and government reduction have increased it tremendously with no positive return to education. They often quote the performance of Northern European systems but guess what those systems do not do? Massive common testing of students. Compare the cost of providing 6 common tests to every student twice a year to the cost of testing every teacher say... every five years or everytime they bid a new subject to teach. For the "corporate analigizers," Good well maintained machines produce good products.

1) Now that you have tested the teachers to clear or reeducate those that did not know their subject areas or pedagogy and have competance remaining, their formative and summative evaluations will measure student competancy and prepare them for the tests described above, tests done at virtually NO expense to the tax payer. The public will have returned to them those 4 weeks of instructional time even further increasing student performance.
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  #78  
Old 06-06-17, 02:05 PM
SWMCinci SWMCinci is offline
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I've known incredible CEOs that failed to deliver....... without testing the outcome you have no idea what's being delivered. You may be right on parts, but I think a common test for movement into the next grade based on skills expected to be learned and retained at a certain point is fair game.

In other words if a child should be able to do multiplication or division, or read a story and know the protagonist, or know what flows through plants to make them green...... it seems like that is fair game. If a teacher has to teach to that just before the test, they need to find a new career because they failed their students and more taxpayer money has been wasted. If an administrator walks into a classroom and finds a teacher teaching that way they should be dismissed for theft of student time and Taxpayer dimes.
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  #79  
Old 06-06-17, 08:39 PM
eastisbest eastisbest is offline
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I've known incredible CEOs that failed to deliver....... without testing the outcome you have no idea what's being delivered. You may be right on parts, but I think a common test for movement into the next grade based on skills expected to be learned and retained at a certain point is fair game.

.
You do test the outcome. In fact, I even said you test the outcome. You sample test, just like in the "real" world.

How many CEOs you know would keep their job if they fully tested every bottle off the line? Every part that goes into the car? They don't. They sample test. Same thing we used to do with ACT, SAT, ASVAB and the occasional every few years aptitude test plus those specific to vocation and guess about what they cost the taxpaper? Na da. We were the greatest country, our kids tested the highest, then the anti-union (cough clonebo's cough) crowd started searching for a "gotcha," and came up with something that hasn't "gotchaed" barely a soul and has cost the tax payers hundreds of millions, with no improvement. You're right, there's a few "CEOs" need firing and BTW, the union thanks you for the paid month of staring at walls while they unsupervised by any government or private entity at all, monitor students (on whose performance the teachers' job depends, but not really) every student on government supplied computers. Where a few class sets used to suffice a school, now they need 1000 for every 800 students, most of which for the better part of the year sit around unused. Another efficiency brought to us by the clone-right.

You know what those CEOs do test every of and frequently? The machine that makes the bottle/car part..... Tested and competent teachers will do as they always have, determine if the students are ready for the next grade so the government can get back to sample testing (just like those countries successfully educating that you like to quote) and save the people a significant part of the budget.

I'm correct in my methods and my economics. Hundred of millions are being wasted thanks almost entirely to those who call themselves "conservative" who bought into the blob's anti-union schtick. You've enriched the text-book companies, their stooges in politics and educational administration and the computer supply companies, with no positive effect, at all.

You're really going to try and argue against this? At least come up with some procedural facts instead of "I want it."
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  #80  
Old 06-06-17, 10:02 PM
SWMCinci SWMCinci is offline
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Originally Posted by eastisbest View Post
.....
You know what those CEOs do test every of and frequently? The machine that makes the bottle/car part..... Tested and competent teachers will do as they always have, determine if the students are ready for the next grade so the government can get back to sample testing (just like those countries successfully educating that you like to quote) and save the people a significant part of the budget.
.......
CEOs are judged by results - revenue, profits, and margins. Not the machines, not samples. The machines can build everything perfectly, but if the public ain't buying they ain't flying. Each and every quarter the CEO is judged on results. That's not a sample, that's on everything that goes out the door. They may have been brought in to fix something that was broken, they may be in the middle of the effort...... Sony didn't lose it's azz on Betamax because management didn't know what they were doing, or because of poor automation, or because the factories produced crap or they used inferior parts, they lost it because no one wanted what they were peddling. You can't always predict success on the sum of the parts, otherwise the Bengals would have been in the Super Bowl more than twice.

It wasn't that long ago that teachers passed students up the chain expecting that the "next" teacher would handle the problem until we had tens of thousands of students that had been promoted without attaining the knowledge expected of graduates. Now, I'm not going to say every teacher was incompetent OR competent because the teachers and the process failed those students, but I will say students and the public deserve better.

Everyone agrees education is broken, there are fingers pointing at administration, teachers, school boards, feds, bus drivers, taxpayers, parents, students, dodgeball, competition - you name it. All I'm saying is until it is fixed you have to examine the results to insure what is being produced is useful to those paying the bills. So whatever the desired results are in reading, writing, and arithmetic for students they need to be tested so that errors can be corrected and lessons learned.

If you are spending days and weeks in these tests then there's your problem. I'm talking a day or so, an SAT/ACT test for each grade to demonstrate readiness for the next grade. The educational industrial complex has screwed it up, teachers, "educators" and the contractors in order to line their pockets. It should be simpler and cheaper, if it means teachers need to "teach to the test" it's a failure and they should be fired for incompetence.

You could also save hundreds of millions by expanding class sizes so that teachers were more efficient. Removing disruptive influences from the classroom so that students that want to learn could learn and teachers weren't interrupted. Ending catering to special interests. You could also save money by lowering starting wages and ending step increases and wage increases for advanced degrees if not required for the position occupied. Expecting schools to live within their budgets and not depending on increasing levies for operational expenses. You could save money by making promotions dependent on increased responsibilities or STEM instruction....... eliminating exams isn't the only way to save money but like I said if you are testing students for weeks there's your problem.
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  #81  
Old 06-07-17, 07:26 AM
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Raising a generation of spineless kids. How do you build a backbone if you never face adversity? Like the parable about teaching a man to fish if you don't allow someone to stand up for themselves how will they make it through what can be a cruel world? Zero tolerance is BS. Not only do these kids not know how to stand up for themselves but they aren't allowed. And this silly notion that if you bring party invites to school you must invite everyone...the sooner you learn not everyone in life is going to like you or be your friend is a good thing.

Who are these kids going to run to when they go out in the real world?
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  #82  
Old 06-07-17, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by serpico View Post
You clearly chose the more difficult option and still got A's, and your classmates chose the easier option and were Valedictorian(s) instead.

Isn't THAT more like a participation award?
Yes, I didn't agree with what happened back in 1997, but at the same time I wasn't going to choose the easier option just to stay valedictorian.

I was just saying that I was someone who got "screwed" by the Val/Sal system but still thinks it needs to be in place.
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  #83  
Old 06-07-17, 12:49 PM
eastisbest eastisbest is offline
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If you are spending days and weeks in these tests then there's your problem. I'm talking a day or so, an SAT/ACT test for each grade to demonstrate readiness for the next grade. The educational industrial complex has screwed it up, teachers, "educators" and the contractors in order to line their pockets. It should be simpler and cheaper, if it means teachers need to "teach to the test" it's a failure and they should be fired for incompetence.
The "educational industrial complex" responded, was forced to respond as is their duty to the right-clones in power that demanded these changes and the form of the changes. They wanted to "get" unions and instead they "got" the educational process that was already struggling. That would be you advocated for and did that. You continue to be unable to take responsibility for being part of a political movement that forced this without educating themselves first, without simulating the results of their actions.

That you would even use the word "if" seems to stand evidence that you do not know what is happening, yet you think you have "fixes?"

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Originally Posted by SWMCinci View Post


1) You could also save hundreds of millions by expanding class sizes so that teachers were more efficient.
2) Removing disruptive influences from the classroom so that students that want to learn could learn and teachers weren't interrupted.

3) Ending catering to special interests.

4) You could also save money by lowering starting wages and ending step increases and wage increases for advanced degrees if not required for the position occupied.

5) Expecting schools to live within their budgets and not depending on increasing levies for operational expenses. You could save money by making promotions dependent on increased responsibilities or STEM instruction....... eliminating exams isn't the only way to save money but like I said if you are testing students for weeks there's your problem.
"your?" You mean "our?" WE are the ones paying for it. We are the ones inexplicably doing exactly what those vaunted successful countries you like to quote, refuse to do. Why are you so afraid to accept and address your misjudgment? YOU are part of the problem that forced this upon the "educational industrial complex," lol.

Yes, you're right, we can save hundreds of millions of dollars by making the problem even worse, demanded by those that know they will long be dead of old age and rich retirement before the effects of their idiocy hits their private bubbles. Let's see if you can provide a practical and supportable plan of action item by item?

1) How big are they now and how big should they be made and what are your predicted effects on educational delivery and costs?

2) What happens to "disruptive influences" now? Remove them to where, for how long, based upon what definition of "disruptive influence?" Who "watches" them and how is that paid for? And what's your prediction becomes of them after they've been removed from the educational environment?

4) Starting wages are generally considered low, Largely in demand teachers of the professions having the longest time to "education and home loan pay-off." How low will you go with starting salary? What part of the budget is that and how much will be saved? What is the increase for "advanced degree?" Don't those in other professions with advanced degrees, generally make more? Why is that and why should it be otherwise in teaching?

3) Who are the special interests? Improper for me to debate such a vague statement.

5) Public schools by definition do live within budget. The illogic in your statement boggles but let's skip that tangent. You have evidence otherwise? School districts massively spending money they don't have?

You impress as having this indoctrination of not just what you want but which methods you wish to be used to obtain it, regardless the effects as long as it results in more to your immediate, if not long term pocket. So much so, that you will not listen to those with the same goals but much more educated opinion on methods to obtain it.
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  #84  
Old 06-07-17, 01:54 PM
SWMCinci SWMCinci is offline
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Originally Posted by eastisbest View Post

1) How big are they now and how big should they be made and what are your predicted effects on educational delivery and costs?

2) What happens to "disruptive influences" now? Remove them to where, for how long, based upon what definition of "disruptive influence?" Who "watches" them and how is that paid for? And what's your prediction becomes of them after they've been removed from the educational environment?

4) Starting wages are generally considered low, Largely in demand teachers of the professions having the longest time to "education and home loan pay-off." How low will you go with starting salary? What part of the budget is that and how much will be saved? What is the increase for "advanced degree?" Don't those in other professions with advanced degrees, generally make more? Why is that and why should it be otherwise in teaching?

3) Who are the special interests? Improper for me to debate such a vague statement.

5) Public schools by definition do live within budget. The illogic in your statement boggles but let's skip that tangent. You have evidence otherwise? School districts massively spending money they don't have?

You impress as having this indoctrination of not just what you want but which methods you wish to be used to obtain it, regardless the effects as long as it results in more to your immediate, if not long term pocket. So much so, that you will not listen to those with the same goals but much more educated opinion on methods to obtain it.
1 - US average is under 20, more in elementary than HS. That's low and only serves the public if the need is to employ more teachers vs teach more students. Average class sizes have been dropping for much of the last 50 years yet test scores indicate performance is worse. Hard to justify more teachers making more if the results are worse than before.

2. Throw them out, put them in the cafeteria for the day, teach the students AND the parent's that don't care that bad behavior has consequences. If you see value in education then welcome, if you don't you might as well get started in your dead end job and see what your life prospects will be, I would take away benefits if parents aren't getting their kids to get in line and take advantage of a free education and I wouldn't let those kids enjoy the benefits of society. They can turn to private charities or their families. I don't care what they become because they chose their path.

3. Stop allowing teachers unions to set policy or dictate hiring practices. These aren't firemen or cops or soldiers, they are professionals - same as accountants, engineers, lawyers, etc. Harvard doesn't show up at a law firm and tell them they need to hire more lawyers so each has a smaller case-load. Let the administration (that's their job) determine how many teachers are needed, how much they should be paid, and whether or not they are retained in following years. Let the school boards set the big picture and directions, but let managers manage.

4. Who says they are low? If I do a search for starting wages, teacher's averages are above those of many other professionals. That tells me they are probably too high. If I am an entry level engineer and go get a masters, my salary doesn't increase unless there is a need at my company for someone with that degree - and not everyone needs it. If "Sue" can teach 2nd grade with a bachelors degree, why should she be paid more for teaching 2nd graders with a masters? I can hire an engineer in India with a PhD for $25K or I can hire one in the US for $65K to do the same job (EXACTLY the same job, usually there are other parameters that are in play but let's say it's exactly). Which one should I hire if I am being a good steward with company money? If I am hiring for a McDonald's cook, which makes sense, hiring a $100K chef or an $8/hour teenager? The chef isn't going to make a better burger - a quarter pounder is a quarter pounder whether it's cooked by a 40 year veteran chef or a new hire teen.

5. Schools live within a budget, but it's not very realistic. Let's take the Lakota School District outside of Cincinnati. A few years back they sought a new levy to increase the money for normal operations (salaries and such). In a growing community with increasing home prices they had to go get even more money. Instead of managing their wages and construction based on the increase in home values or the number of homes added to the market, they sought to take a greater share of residents money AND the increases from the number of new homes. Like ANY industry, wages shouldn't be guaranteed unless the organization is doing well and can afford it. If home prices and wages are stagnant, those elements of society that are dependent on taxation should also have a stagnant budget and be forced to make tough decisions - like 1,2,3,4 above.

Like anyone, I have an expectation that people can adapt. If the reality is that education costs society more than it should - that the management and leadership and employees can make it work. In private industry that means closing facilities, asking people to do more with less, foregoing raises, changing work rules, seeking ways to deliver the same or better results less expensively and in some cases considering other ways to do things. In the auto industry, there are less people making better cars but at higher wages than ever before. Rather than forcing someone to get a bachelors or masters degree what if the job can be held by a trainee or associates degree holder? If a recent graduate can teach a 2nd grade class for $35K why is a 30 year veteran making $90K to do the exact same job? In most jobs you can only go so far before you are capped in wages unless you take a different job with more risk or responsibility - why can't education be the same? No one has provided a decent answer except to say our children are our greatest investment without really justifying why it can't change.
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  #85  
Old 06-07-17, 06:26 PM
eastisbest eastisbest is offline
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Originally Posted by SWMCinci View Post
1 - US average is under 20, more in elementary than HS. That's low and only serves the public if the need is to employ more teachers vs teach more students. Average class sizes have been dropping for much of the last 50 years yet test scores indicate performance is worse. Hard to justify more teachers making more if the results are worse than before.

2. Throw them out, put them in the cafeteria for the day, teach the students AND the parent's that don't care that bad behavior has consequences. If you see value in education then welcome, if you don't you might as well get started in your dead end job and see what your life prospects will be, I would take away benefits if parents aren't getting their kids to get in line and take advantage of a free education and I wouldn't let those kids enjoy the benefits of society. They can turn to private charities or their families. I don't care what they become because they chose their path.

3. Stop allowing teachers unions to set policy or dictate hiring practices. These aren't firemen or cops or soldiers, they are professionals - same as accountants, engineers, lawyers, etc. Harvard doesn't show up at a law firm and tell them they need to hire more lawyers so each has a smaller case-load. Let the administration (that's their job) determine how many teachers are needed, how much they should be paid, and whether or not they are retained in following years. Let the school boards set the big picture and directions, but let managers manage.

4. Who says they are low? If I do a search for starting wages, teacher's averages are above those of many other professionals. That tells me they are probably too high. If I am an entry level engineer and go get a masters, my salary doesn't increase unless there is a need at my company for someone with that degree - and not everyone needs it. If "Sue" can teach 2nd grade with a bachelors degree, why should she be paid more for teaching 2nd graders with a masters? I can hire an engineer in India with a PhD for $25K or I can hire one in the US for $65K to do the same job (EXACTLY the same job, usually there are other parameters that are in play but let's say it's exactly). Which one should I hire if I am being a good steward with company money? If I am hiring for a McDonald's cook, which makes sense, hiring a $100K chef or an $8/hour teenager? The chef isn't going to make a better burger - a quarter pounder is a quarter pounder whether it's cooked by a 40 year veteran chef or a new hire teen.

5. Schools live within a budget, but it's not very realistic. Let's take the Lakota School District outside of Cincinnati. A few years back they sought a new levy to increase the money for normal operations (salaries and such). In a growing community with increasing home prices they had to go get even more money. Instead of managing their wages and construction based on the increase in home values or the number of homes added to the market, they sought to take a greater share of residents money AND the increases from the number of new homes. Like ANY industry, wages shouldn't be guaranteed unless the organization is doing well and can afford it. If home prices and wages are stagnant, those elements of society that are dependent on taxation should also have a stagnant budget and be forced to make tough decisions - like 1,2,3,4 above.

6) Like anyone, I have an expectation that people can adapt. If the reality is that education costs society more than it should - that the management and leadership and employees can make it work. In private industry that means closing facilities, asking people to do more with less, foregoing raises, changing work rules, seeking ways to deliver the same or better results less expensively and in some cases considering other ways to do things.

7) In the auto industry, there are less people making better cars but at higher wages than ever before. Rather than forcing someone to get a bachelors or masters degree what if the job can be held by a trainee or associates degree holder?

8) If a recent graduate can teach a 2nd grade class for $35K why is a 30 year veteran making $90K to do the exact same job? In most jobs you can only go so far before you are capped in wages unless you take a different job with more risk or responsibility - why can't education be the same? No one has provided a decent answer except to say our children are our greatest investment without really justifying why it can't change.
1) "Average" indicates nothing on which a business or logistical decision would be made. ask the right questions if you want to work for solutions. What percent of those classrooms are under 20? Why are they now under 20 as opposed to the "olden day?" Which ones are under 20? And finally, was that reduction in "average" class size within the control of your "educational industrial complex," or not? Hint: no. It was a response to political and social changes and (debated) pedagogy.

2) How many people are you going to hire in order to monitor those students while they're in the cafeteria? Are you sure the schools are not already doing something similar because there seem to be a lot of political and social complaints that what you desire, is actually happening in some fashion. How instructional is it to toss a kid aside who has become disruptive because say, their parents got divorced, there was a shooting in the neighborhood, no food or heat, they had a sucky teacher (one of your cheap "temps" ) LAST year and are struggling..." Are you informed?

3) Can you show me even one public system in which the union does the hiring? Now I'm not saying hiring is done as I'd suggest but I think if you know your facts to be true, I'd be interested.

4) There you go with your "averages" again. Because the "average" starting wage of teachers is above "many" (which?) other professions they are over paid? You have some idea in your head where teachers should rank in the professional category so we can make some recommendations to your local school board? Lowest? Next to lowest?... Below whom? Above (if any) whom?

5) Well ok, progress, you admitted you were wrong in your statement but lets deflect with Oh JOY! An anecdote. I'm sure "Lakota" is representative (even though you don't believe in the scientific measures of sampling )

Let's see if it is! Not a lot of cultural diversity. Some poverty, 12% (My local runs 70-80%). Looks like Lakota met 100% of their indicators, pretty good for the 7th largest district in a state the size of Ohio. Can you tell me, who put guns to the heads of the people in Lakota to vote for the levy? If Bexley and Indian Hill are putting more money into their systems, maybe this rather well run system in Lakota sees opportunity to raise their level of service. If successful, seems like you'd benefit if they are.

6) You used "if" again. If you're going to debate, either concede the point or find something to support that education in Lakota costs "more than it should." Nothing's free. Businesses go to investors for capital decisions "if" they see opportunity. Why shouldn't Lakota or any school district try the same, see if their voters are willing?

7) "in the auto industry"

8) You're inching closer.... but yes, plenty of people have provided "answer," including me. You've just chosen not to listen.

Summary: It's sounding to me like your expectation is people adapt to your convenience. Have you consider where you might have room to adapt? I watch, listen, hopefully learn and adapt all the time regards education. There are problems. You've not addressed one of them yet.

Maybe stop thinking this is any business. There is room for business sense but you don't seem to have realized who you're asking that of. You don't know the players and you don't appear to have made any effort to know the players but you (the clone-right) still want to be the coaches.

We can always push for better and more efficient and I'm aware there are problems in many of those areas but you say it, without experience, let alone anecdote or proof that they are not attempting these things and your (and the clone-rights) "solutions" have made things immeasurably worse.

Not even businesses survive on over-think and that's what you're doing here.
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