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  #1  
Old 11-23-17, 10:58 AM
Sports Jock and Chad Sports Jock and Chad is offline
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Shot Clock

Anyone else think this might be a good idea? Some states already have it at varsity level. Final scores in the 30's and 40's are painful to watch...all you need is tank tops, shorty shorts, socks up to the knees and Chuck Taylors
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  #2  
Old 11-23-17, 11:21 AM
Raider6309 Raider6309 is offline
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I’ve always been in favor of it but the old generation hates the idea. They say it will cause forced shots. Plus need another person to run the shot clock
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  #3  
Old 11-23-17, 12:46 PM
Sports Jock and Chad Sports Jock and Chad is offline
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Yes it will force shots...and that is the point...let's see some shooting and athleticism...there is a play clock in football...in lacrosse you have to attack but in high school ball you can pass it around in a circle for minutes on end...I would try to get 7 team fouls within 2 minutes and put them on the line...then run off of misses and makes...take my chances trading 3's for free throws...at least it would be watchable lol
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  #4  
Old 11-23-17, 02:42 PM
Vike16 Vike16 is offline
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I saw LaSalle vs Princeton last year. It was the worst game I ever saw on the varsity level. This is no disrespect to the Lancers because keep away basketball is part of the game. But to watch a 38-28 game that was just keep away and taking 2 or 3 minute possessions because you have 12 point lead in the 2nd quarter is very hard to watch. I really don't see why Ohio can't have a 40 or 45 second shot clock
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  #5  
Old 11-23-17, 03:25 PM
buckeye1689 buckeye1689 is offline
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Of course we need a shot clock. The fact that we don't have one is beyond ridiculous. No one could make a logical argument to me where i would agree we dont need one. College and the NBA has a shot clock...why not high school?
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  #6  
Old 11-23-17, 04:54 PM
Blue Jay Fan Blue Jay Fan is offline
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If someone can guarantee me that scores would increase with a shot clock, then let's have one. I watched a game from California a few years ago with a shot clock. Final: 44-41.

Someone mentioned a 40-45 second shot clock. I'd bet you'd find very few possessions in a high school game where a shot isn't taken much sooner than that. If you want to speed up the pace, why not 25 seconds?

The problem is coaches micro-managing games and far too physical play. Unless you address those two the games will not change.
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  #7  
Old 11-23-17, 05:16 PM
Yellow_Jacket06 Yellow_Jacket06 is offline
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No. Why punish smaller, less athletic teams by forcing them to play uptempo against superior athletes?

Small ball isn't fun to watch but it can and has won games. Winning is what matters, not the fans enjoyment.
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  #8  
Old 11-23-17, 07:44 PM
Salesman Salesman is offline
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A resounding NO for a couple of reasons:

1. With a shot clock, the best team wins, the lesser team loses. There is no way to slow down the tempo of the game.

2. It removes some of the coaching from the game. No time to "run some clock" in a a tight game before putting up a game winner.

3. In smaller school systems, it is impossible to find folks to run the scoreboard, keep the clock, keep book, and announce. Now you want to find another person to run the shot clock. Many schools now have HS kids doing this. Hell, let's add a instant replay coordinator while we're at it.

I keep hearing on how it is boring for fans. My feeling is those fans don't truly understand what goes into coaching or playing a game. The kids are not there to entertain you. They are out there to try to win a basketball game and the coaches are there to guide them toward that goal. I think the people complaining are the same ones who hate 2-1 games in baseball or 10-7 games in football.
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  #9  
Old 11-23-17, 07:57 PM
Raider6309 Raider6309 is offline
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But yeah we need a shot clock. It’s stupid we don’t have one
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  #10  
Old 11-23-17, 08:28 PM
eastisbest eastisbest is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sports Jock and Chad View Post
Yes it will force shots...and that is the point...let's see some shooting and athleticism...there is a play clock in football...in lacrosse you have to attack but in high school ball you can pass it around in a circle for minutes on end...I would try to get 7 team fouls within 2 minutes and put them on the line...then run off of misses and makes...take my chances trading 3's for free throws...at least it would be watchable lol
So this wasn't so much a thread to get opinions and maybe new view points as it is you looking for an opportunity to tell everyone what is right? Rehash an old topic? No new ground to cover. A search will quickly grab what's been said. See if you have something new to add. So far, not so much but keep trying. Old topics can be good, when opened honestly.
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  #11  
Old 11-23-17, 08:57 PM
TheGreatElk TheGreatElk is offline
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Controlling tempo is how upsets occur. Shot clock would give the more talented team a huge advantage. In high school you coach what walks through the door unless you're Wayne or Moeller.
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  #12  
Old 11-23-17, 09:35 PM
eastisbest eastisbest is offline
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I think the debate falls into a trap using the words "more talented." I think I get your point but I think it's better made without the concept that a team playing a style not affected by a shot clock is more talented than one whose style and playbook would be.

If the goal is to limit a game in some way, new rules are put in place. It's still a game, it's just a different game with the same name. But I think those proposing this change think all schools come into athletics with the same support, the same monies. The more extraneious things added, the more schools left out. To mandate something in a high school environment purely for an "entertainment" aspect? Seems foolish and self centered to me.

I'm aware those that have already indicated their disinterest in diverse playing styles will now come back and try to counter their already expressed view that they want the clock so they can be better entertained by making argument it is in some way competitively or instuctionally better but that cat is already out. Try that tactic and look foolish.

There is a pure purpose to athletics and team sports and some semblance of that remains in high school. That's where arguments should be centered if they're to result in change, my opinion.
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  #13  
Old 11-23-17, 10:21 PM
doverbuck doverbuck is offline
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I don't really understand the fascination with high scores,to me a 35-34 game is just as exciting as a 85-84 game, you just have to appreciate good defense. Same with football spread teams seem to produce a lot of 3 hour 45-42 games, I will take a 10-7 game any day.
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  #14  
Old 11-23-17, 11:38 PM
Vike16 Vike16 is offline
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Why do people act like these kids are so fragile. Any high school team can adjust to a shot clock no matter the size of the school. You still can run some clock down with a shot clock. But taking 2 or 3 minutes possessions is ridiculous and you know it. To me it's less coaching without a shot clock, because you can just tell your kids with a lead to run in a circle for 3 minutes and play keep away
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  #15  
Old 11-24-17, 07:54 AM
zebrastripes zebrastripes is offline
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People act as though a shot clock will magically make bad basketball good all of a sudden. That simply is not true. If anything it will just force more bad shots and poor fundamentals. There is too much bad basketball at the high school level to force a shot clock upon everyone.

The numbers do not support a shot clock. How many possessions really last over 30 seconds? I don't have the statistics in front of me, but it's not a high percentage.

The argument that it would lessen the learning curve to college: sorry, but that's not the NFHS's or OHSAA's job.

Cost: it's always going to be an argument. Purchasing, installing, and running shot clocks is not cheap, especially in older gyms. It's a significant unnecessary financial burden that would be forced upon school districts.
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  #16  
Old 11-24-17, 07:56 AM
zebrastripes zebrastripes is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vike16 View Post
Why do people act like these kids are so fragile. Any high school team can adjust to a shot clock no matter the size of the school. You still can run some clock down with a shot clock. But taking 2 or 3 minutes possessions is ridiculous and you know it. To me it's less coaching without a shot clock, because you can just tell your kids with a lead to run in a circle for 3 minutes and play keep away
Making a mountain out of a molehill.

You see a microscopic number of 2-3 minute possessions and then act like it's a universal problem. These types of teams are in the overwhelming minority.
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  #17  
Old 11-24-17, 09:19 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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A field goal is attempted on average once every 21 seconds in high school basketball......

So how's a 30, 35, 40, 45, or heck...... even a 25 second clock going to speed up the flow of the game?


It's all about putting the ball in the bucket, which kids simply cannot do these days. (I blame this on the use of that damn 3pt line in age groups below the freshman level)
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  #18  
Old 11-24-17, 09:38 AM
Sports Jock and Chad Sports Jock and Chad is offline
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I can believe the 21 second average... but average is a bad statistic...it is effected tremendously by outliers on either side...better to build the old bell curve with standard deviations if you want a good picture. I have been a coach for 25 years ( and I LOVE defense and rebounding) and trust me when I tell you the players hate playing stall ball too...Sure, you can win with it sometimes but it takes from the spirit of the game and the way it was meant to be played...many other states have a clock...even if the score is 44-41 at least there was attacking...missed shots are better than watching 32 passes around the half court....just my opinion of course
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  #19  
Old 11-24-17, 09:51 AM
Vike16 Vike16 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sports Jock and Chad View Post
I can believe the 21 second average... but average is a bad statistic...it is effected tremendously by outliers on either side...better to build the old bell curve with standard deviations if you want a good picture. I have been a coach for 25 years ( and I LOVE defense and rebounding) and trust me when I tell you the players hate playing stall ball too...Sure, you can win with it sometimes but it takes from the spirit of the game and the way it was meant to be played...many other states have a clock...even if the score is 44-41 at least there was attacking...missed shots are better than watching 32 passes around the half court....just my opinion of course
Makes sense to me
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  #20  
Old 11-24-17, 10:23 AM
Sports Jock and Chad Sports Jock and Chad is offline
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I went to a scrimmage a few nights ago with a friend I coach with...A few of our boys are now playing varsity and we wanted to support them and cheer them on...We joked that the team got a shot up every 13 seconds but it probably was close to that...and they were good takes...they pushed the ball and attacked the rim or kicked out. You could tell the boys were having fun and the parents were engaged...they ended up winning and scoring 82 although that won't always be the case...in a strange turn of an old adage the up tempo offense led to an up tempo defense (coaches always preach that good D leads to offense)...
and I beg to differ: Kids today can really fill it up! It is the micro managing coaches who insist on running the flex 22 times before a shot that kill it..My friends son graduated from college last year...he had an okay high school career...solid but not stellar...He got a chance to play college ball (he is 6'6")
and his last 2 years averaged 15 points a game...I asked him what he attributed it to...weight room?...maturity?....He said his coach would bench you if you passed on too many open looks....The coach told him they run the sets to get those looks....He said in high school it seemed like they ran an offense just to run it...if you took a shot and missed you were pulled...in college the coach told him everyone including the all time greats missed shots BUT they moved on to the next one. He commented that knowing the coach had faith in you really boosted his confidence...to the point where he was surprised when he missed!
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  #21  
Old 11-24-17, 10:28 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sports Jock and Chad View Post
I can believe the 21 second average... but average is a bad statistic...it is effected tremendously by outliers on either side...better to build the old bell curve with standard deviations if you want a good picture. I have been a coach for 25 years ( and I LOVE defense and rebounding) and trust me when I tell you the players hate playing stall ball too...Sure, you can win with it sometimes but it takes from the spirit of the game and the way it was meant to be played...many other states have a clock...even if the score is 44-41 at least there was attacking...missed shots are better than watching 32 passes around the half court....just my opinion of course
At 21 seconds per shot, we have roughly 91 field goal attempts.
At 30 seconds per shot, we have roughly 64 field goal attempts.
At 45 seconds per shot, we have roughly 43 field goal attempts.
At 120 seconds per shot, (as some suggest is routine) we have 16 field goal attempts.......

We know that the stats are not reflective of a run and gun game. However, we also know that it's not reflective of 27 shots being missed and immediately attempted again. (the difference between 21 seconds per shot and 30 seconds per shot) The total numbers simply do not support the assertion.

Throw out the aberrations, the few games where stall ball truly happens, not the one where teams are working for a good shot each and every time down the floor, (you know..... trying to give them the best chance to win) and the facts show that the shot clock isn't needed.

HS athletics isn't about entertainment.
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  #22  
Old 11-24-17, 10:33 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sports Jock and Chad View Post
many other states have a clock

Many?

9 out of 50
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  #23  
Old 11-24-17, 10:49 AM
zebrastripes zebrastripes is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
Many?

9 out of 50
And those 9 states gave up their representation on the Rules Committee by implementing it, something the OHSAA has made clear will not happen.
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  #24  
Old 11-24-17, 11:01 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zebrastripes View Post
And those 9 states gave up their representation on the Rules Committee by implementing it, something the OHSAA has made clear will not happen.
Agreed. That's something I've said for years.

The only way the FED will relent is by making it available for state adoption. It's been discussed at that level, but hasn't garnered the support (thankfully) needed to make the change.
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  #25  
Old 11-24-17, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
At 21 seconds per shot, we have roughly 91 field goal attempts.
At 30 seconds per shot, we have roughly 64 field goal attempts.
At 45 seconds per shot, we have roughly 43 field goal attempts.
At 120 seconds per shot, (as some suggest is routine) we have 16 field goal attempts.......

We know that the stats are not reflective of a run and gun game. However, we also know that it's not reflective of 27 shots being missed and immediately attempted again. (the difference between 21 seconds per shot and 30 seconds per shot) The total numbers simply do not support the assertion.

Throw out the aberrations, the few games where stall ball truly happens, not the one where teams are working for a good shot each and every time down the floor, (you know..... trying to give them the best chance to win) and the facts show that the shot clock isn't needed.

HS athletics isn't about entertainment.
HS athletics is about the kids and I bet if you ask them the majority will be for a shot clock.
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  #26  
Old 11-24-17, 03:55 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auggie View Post
HS athletics is about the kids and I bet if you ask them the majority will be for a shot clock.
It's about the kids' participation.

They don't get to make the rules.

Last edited by AllSports12; 11-27-17 at 11:37 AM.
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  #27  
Old 11-24-17, 05:06 PM
SLAGuy SLAGuy is offline
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HS basketball is about teaching lessons.

I'm sure if you asked most HS kids, they would rather there not be a coach at all and they could run the teams themselves.
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  #28  
Old 11-24-17, 06:52 PM
CometCountry CometCountry is offline
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Originally Posted by SLAGuy View Post
HS basketball is about teaching lessons.

I'm sure if you asked most HS kids, they would rather there not be a coach at all and they could run the teams themselves.
Well said SLA--after coaching 27 years most folks realize it's not about # of shots, but about how many you make--shot clock equals many bad shots at the high school level.
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  #29  
Old 11-25-17, 02:23 AM
TheGreatElk TheGreatElk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sports Jock and Chad View Post
I went to a scrimmage a few nights ago with a friend I coach with...A few of our boys are now playing varsity and we wanted to support them and cheer them on...We joked that the team got a shot up every 13 seconds but it probably was close to that...and they were good takes...they pushed the ball and attacked the rim or kicked out. You could tell the boys were having fun and the parents were engaged...they ended up winning and scoring 82 although that won't always be the case...in a strange turn of an old adage the up tempo offense led to an up tempo defense (coaches always preach that good D leads to offense)...
and I beg to differ: Kids today can really fill it up! It is the micro managing coaches who insist on running the flex 22 times before a shot that kill it..My friends son graduated from college last year...he had an okay high school career...solid but not stellar...He got a chance to play college ball (he is 6'6")
and his last 2 years averaged 15 points a game...I asked him what he attributed it to...weight room?...maturity?....He said his coach would bench you if you passed on too many open looks....The coach told him they run the sets to get those looks....He said in high school it seemed like they ran an offense just to run it...if you took a shot and missed you were pulled...in college the coach told him everyone including the all time greats missed shots BUT they moved on to the next one. He commented that knowing the coach had faith in you really boosted his confidence...to the point where he was surprised when he missed!
Good point, but true with or without a shot clock. Those of you making the lame excuse that "holding the ball" or being very patient is not coaching obviously don't understand how difficult it is to play that way against better talent.
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  #30  
Old 11-25-17, 03:09 PM
USA70PP USA70PP is offline
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So, let me understand this. High school basketball is for the enjoyment of the fans and not for the team work and enjoyment of the kids? Okay, I have it now. Put in a shot clock so you can make it better for the fans. How many fans are we talking about here...10%, 15% ...how many?
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