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  #1  
Old 07-02-17, 05:18 PM
MUOhio MUOhio is offline
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Question about seeding?

Situation: 3 pools with 5 teams (4 games); 3 pool winners make it to bracket play, plus one wild card.

Due to weather a few games were cancelled. With that the tourney director then reverted to only counting first 3 games of pool play, so 4th game didn't count (rule 16).

Pool Standings:

Pool 1 winner 3-0 RA 6 (Really 4-0)

Pool 2 winner 3-0 RA 3 (Only played 3 games; won 3rd game because other team had already won 3 games so they threw off to save pitching, loss didn't count against them)

Pool 3 winner 3-0 RA 8 (Really 4-0)

Wild Card from Pool 2 3-0 RA 8 (Really 3-1; lost game because they threw off)


Seedings:

Seed #1: Pool 2 winner: really only played 2 games because 3rd game coach of other team threw off to save pitching, game didn't count for them no reason to try and win.

Seed #2: Pool 1 winner

Seed #3: Wild Card (2nd team from Pool 2)

Seed #4: Pool 3 winner

When tourney director was asked about seeding, he referred to Rule 16: If games are rained out, they may not be able to be made up. If teams don’t play an equal amount of games it goes back to the fewest amount of games a team has played.

Not sure that answered the question. Not sure this director could have answered any question.

My question: Isn't pool play used to determine seeding comparing pool winners' RA and any team not a Pool winner is seeded lower than pool winners?

Very poorly ran and communicated tournament.

Just curious.
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  #2  
Old 07-02-17, 05:23 PM
Yappi Yappi is offline
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I would have to see it spelled out in the tournament rules. Typically the pool winners are seeded highest but I have seen similar seedings to this in other tournaments. It was a little strange but it didn't really make much difference.
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  #3  
Old 07-02-17, 05:46 PM
MUOhio MUOhio is offline
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Actually did work out for the better but tournament director acted like I was a fool to think pool winners should be higher seed than a wild card team.

My thoughts: if seeds were done by pool play then the same two teams would have played Saturday evening (pool play) and then turned around and played again Sunday morning (bracket play). One of those teams was from his organization. Speaking with the coach from his organization, he also did not understand how they were a higher seed as the wild card.

But like I said it worked out.
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  #4  
Old 07-02-17, 05:50 PM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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A pool winner, in my thinking, should be seeded above a wildcard from another pool. The problem here may be that only 4 advance from 3 pools and the wildcard came from the pool of the 1 seed. Some tourney rules state that teams from the same pool that played once won't face each other again in the first round. Did the guy maybe just awkwardly communicate his take on the rules ?

I usually hesitate to criticize a decision unless I feel that I see a better alternative that I'm willing to articulate. Do you have one ?

How many teams were in each pool ?
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  #5  
Old 07-02-17, 05:51 PM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MUOhio View Post
Actually did work out for the better but tournament director acted like I was a fool to think pool winners should be higher seed than a wild card team.

My thoughts: if seeds were done by pool play then the same two teams would have played Saturday evening (pool play) and then turned around and played again Sunday morning (bracket play). One of those teams was from his organization. Speaking with the coach from his organization, he also did not understand how they were a higher seed as the wild card.

But like I said it worked out.
USSSA local director ?
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  #6  
Old 07-02-17, 05:56 PM
MUOhio MUOhio is offline
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Tourney Rules

1. Game time is forfeit time under normal circumstances. Please have your team warmed up and ready to play. Be ready to play 15 minutes before start time.

2. No infield/outfield

3. All games in pool play will be seven innings with a time limit of 2 hours. No new inning can start after 2:00. Time limit starts after pre game meeting with umpires. Pool-play and consolation games can end in a tie. There will be no time limit bracket play. In case of inclement weather or darkness, a game will be considered complete if the losing team bats at least 4 times, down by 8 or more runs or has played 1 hour.

4. Mercy rule Ė 8 runs after five innings, 10 runs after four innings, 15 runs after three innings. This will be in effect for all games.

5. There are no pitching restrictions. Please use good judgment.

6. You may bat 9, use one or two EHs and/or a DH, or bat the roster. If you bat the roster and a player cannot continue for any reason, that spot in the lineup will become an out. If you do not bat the roster, you may replace a starter and re-enter him into the game one time. There is no re-entry for a substitute. If a DH goes into the field, the DH is eliminated for the rest of that game.

7. Courtesy runner for the pitcher and catcher is allowed at any time. It is encouraged, but not mandatory, with 2 outs. The courtesy runner must be a player not currently in the lineup or, if youíre batting the roster, the last batted out.

8. Base Runner must slide or attempt to avoid contact. Malicious contact could result in an ejection.

9. 4 baseballs will be provided for each game by teams. Each team provides 2 new game balls at umpire meeting. Please have your teams retrieve foul balls on your side of the field.

10. No protest at all for any reason. Umpires ruling is final!

11. In the case of a forfeit, a team will receive a 7-0 win.

12. Home team will be decided by a coin flip. Higher seed will be the home team in the championship round.

13. The umpires are in charge of the game. Their decision on any judgment call will be final. Any coach/player/parent who is ejected must sit out the next game. Any coach/player who is ejected twice will be barred from the rest of the tournament. If a coach/parent is ejected, he/she must leave the park and cannot be at the park for the next game. If a player is ejected, he must leave the dugout and cannot be in the dugout for the next game.

14. In case of inclement weather, the tournament director reserves the right to re-format the tournament. If an event is cancelled by Best of Ohio for any reason other than weather prior to the start of the tournament, teams will receive a full refund.

15. Teams that complete the registration process are expected to attend the event. Teams that withdraw 31-plus days before a tournament will receive a full credit minus a $150 administrative fee if event is not full. There are no refunds for withdrawals in the 30 days before a tournament begins. Refunds as follow: 0 games-Full credit minus $150 admin fee 1 Game- 50 percent cred and after the start of the 2nd game- No refund

16. If games are rained out, they may not be able to be made up. If teams donít play an equal amount of games it goes back to the fewest amount of games a team has played.

17. Head-to-head results will always be the first tiebreaker. If more than two teams are tied (and one team hasnít defeated each of the other teams), Runs allowed, then runs scored and then coin flip.

18. Higher seed is home team in tourney play.

19. Ohio high school rules will prevail for any question or incident not covered by these rules.

20. All teams are required to have team insurance or have all players covered by their family insurance. By entering this tournament, you are agreeing that all players are covered by insurance and that Best of Ohio is not liable for any injuries sustained in the process of this tournament.

21. All coaches should bring playersí birth certificates with them. Our age cutoff is June 1st. Birth certificates will only be checked by tournament personnel if another team protests a playerís age (the $100 cash protest fee applies here). If a playerís age is protested and a birth certificate cannot be produced, that player will be ineligible for the remainder of the tournament. If a player is proven to be too old, that player will be ineligible for the remainder of the tournament and any wins that player participated in will be forfeited.

22. Tournament Director has the right to alter changes at any point for any reason.

Told in email pool winners and one wild card.
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  #7  
Old 07-02-17, 06:09 PM
MUOhio MUOhio is offline
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This was a tournament ran in Dayton Area. Not on here to bash tournament or organization that is why I have not mentioned any names. I will do that in a different forum.

This director was a horrible communicator. Sent email about 4th game not counting at 1:10. My team played back to back at 1130 and 130. Director couldn't understand why I would not have checked my email between games so I would have known fourth game didn't count. Maybe finished shaking hands. Other team walking in and umpires ask, "Coaches can you guys be ready in 15min to go?"

I was surprised he didn't have sight mangers communicate with coaches.

Like I said worked out.
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  #8  
Old 07-02-17, 06:20 PM
MUOhio MUOhio is offline
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I must correct a previous statement. I don't think this director has any ties to any organization. I said "his organization".
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  #9  
Old 07-03-17, 07:35 AM
Buck_98 Buck_98 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MUOhio View Post
Situation: 3 pools with 5 teams (4 games); 3 pool winners make it to bracket play, plus one wild card.

Due to weather a few games were cancelled. With that the tourney director then reverted to only counting first 3 games of pool play, so 4th game didn't count (rule 16).

Pool Standings:

Pool 1 winner 3-0 RA 6 (Really 4-0)

Pool 2 winner 3-0 RA 3 (Only played 3 games; won 3rd game because other team had already won 3 games so they threw off to save pitching, loss didn't count against them)

Pool 3 winner 3-0 RA 8 (Really 4-0)

Wild Card from Pool 2 3-0 RA 8 (Really 3-1; lost game because they threw off)


Seedings:

Seed #1: Pool 2 winner: really only played 2 games because 3rd game coach of other team threw off to save pitching, game didn't count for them no reason to try and win.

Seed #2: Pool 1 winner

Seed #3: Wild Card (2nd team from Pool 2)

Seed #4: Pool 3 winner

When tourney director was asked about seeding, he referred to Rule 16: If games are rained out, they may not be able to be made up. If teams donít play an equal amount of games it goes back to the fewest amount of games a team has played.

Not sure that answered the question. Not sure this director could have answered any question.

My question: Isn't pool play used to determine seeding comparing pool winners' RA and any team not a Pool winner is seeded lower than pool winners?

Very poorly ran and communicated tournament.

Just curious.
First of all I'm not sure why you keep saying the Pool 2 winner only played 2 games?? They played 3 games and won them. The team that started a lesser pitcher still had to hit the ball and play defense. Strategy is part of the game.

As to the seeding. If only 3 games count and all 4 teams were 3-0 then it is possible that a wild card can jump a pool winner. I don't know if rule 17 pertains to seeding (it should) but if no head to head then it is runs allowed (both have 8), then runs scored, then coin toss. What were the runs scored?
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  #10  
Old 07-03-17, 12:08 PM
MUOhio MUOhio is offline
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You are 100% correct strategy is part of the game. So a team playing a game that means nothing has a different strategy, than a team that needs the win to play on. One has the strategy playing to have a better chance to win tomorrow in bracket play, the other team's strategy is playing to win today, to make it to bracket play tomorrow. Again 100% correct, strategy is part of the game.

Last edited by MUOhio; 07-03-17 at 12:19 PM.
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