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  #211  
Old 06-27-17, 02:44 PM
Uncle Ted Uncle Ted is offline
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Originally Posted by 14Red View Post
Isn't this what religion/ church is all about, beliefs???
Yeah and the states shouldn't care about any religious belief.
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  #212  
Old 06-27-17, 08:47 PM
Purplemojo Purplemojo is offline
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Marriage is a contract and it is important that it be recognized by the state. Have you ever known a non-married couple that broke up after a substantial period of time. There is no law protecting either of them. Who gets the TV, well, whose account did the money come from to purchase it? Father's have absolutely no rights to the children in a non-married situation until they can show paternity. Within a marriage paternity is assumed until challenged. A married couple can choose to have one parent be a full-time care giver for the children and that person is protected when they split up to share in the assets acquired during the marriage, regardless as to who earned the money to purchase those assets. In a non-married couple, the non-wage earner is screwed.

No common law marriage in Ohio and no "palimony" you are either married (legally) or you are not. The law does not protect non-married couples, nor should it. If it did, anyone roommate, regardless of the nature of the relationship (two dudes who are old college friends) could could make a claim on the property of the other.

Marriage is marriage, hetro or gay, and there is a reason the state has an interest in acknowledging it.
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  #213  
Old 07-10-17, 08:44 PM
JoshuaRanch JoshuaRanch is offline
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Originally Posted by arizonawildcat View Post
Just a small correction, it's somewhere between 2.5% and 4%.
AZCat, I know that's the percentages that are always stated, but in reality, I believe its closer to 1 out of 10. A big family of kids, there always is one who is gay it seems. Most families it exists, someone is gay, a cousin, an aunt, an uncle. Think about your extended family. There is usually a black sheep, usually someone who is gay. I can't think of any families I know that don't have this. So I think it might be a little higher, I'm saying 1 in 10, just my humble opinion.

I have a sister who is gay. She doesn't want to be gay, but she is. She tried going out with guys, was forced to, but felt nothing. She has been attracted to women since she was old enough to know. We've had many discussions about it. I accept her for what she is, a wonderful, caring, loving sister and human being. My parents had the toughest time with dealing with her being gay, I feel so sorry for her. They tried to suppress it, they tried to pray it away. It just is, that's how she feels. She has been in a very good relationship with a gal for 10 years. They are happy. I'm happy for them, my other 4 heterosexual brothers are happy for her and accept her as well. Why not, she's a great human being, fun, smart. She just likes being with gals - so what. God made her that way, its not something she learned or was forced to do. My Mom used to dress her in dresses and all the girly stuff, she hated it. And my sister is gorgeous, no one even guesses she's gay. Her female gay friends are gorgeous too. Its been funny over the years when my sister and some of her friends show up at family events and non family guys always want to know how they can get together with them. And my brothers and I just laugh. She was not abused mentally, sexually, emotionally or any way growing up. We went to a community church, where homosexuality was shunned. But the genetic forces behind being gay are so strong, and so real, she was still able to overcome the obstacles and be her true self. Good for her. If she ever gets married (she lives with her friend), I will gladly go, and hope they live a continued happy life. I could list another 100 examples of the above, same story. I truly believe that its genetic, although obviously some people make choices to be gay when they are not genetically gay. I believe that "chosen" type of deviant homosexuality is what the bible, or religion, is addressing. But the genetic burden - God did this for a purpose - what that is, we'll find out I guess when we die. We all have burdens, that one is a tough one to have.
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  #214  
Old 07-10-17, 08:46 PM
Taco MacArthur Taco MacArthur is offline
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You should post more often, Joshua. Truly inspiring stuff.
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  #215  
Old 07-10-17, 09:00 PM
JoshuaRanch JoshuaRanch is offline
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Taco, thanks, will try to get here more often, like what you've been communicating on this thread as well.

I get attacked by 40 of the dumb guys (I don't think there are any gals) who I exposed as being dumb since about the time I showed up here. So I have them all on ignore. Waste of time trying to fix dumb, it can't be fixed. So I just show up and communicate with those who aren't dumb every now and then, and enjoy it.

Now watch and read Taco as the dummies crawl out from under their rocks and shoot their mini squirt guns at me, its hilarious.
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  #216  
Old 07-10-17, 09:10 PM
Raider6309 Raider6309 is offline
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Originally Posted by JoshuaRanch View Post
Taco, thanks, will try to get here more often, like what you've been communicating on this thread as well.

I get attacked by 40 of the dumb guys (I don't think there are any gals) who I exposed as being dumb since about the time I showed up here. So I have them all on ignore. Waste of time trying to fix dumb, it can't be fixed. So I just show up and communicate with those who aren't dumb every now and then, and enjoy it.

Now watch and read Taco as the dummies crawl out from under their rocks and shoot their mini squirt guns at me, its hilarious.
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  #217  
Old 07-10-17, 09:47 PM
Neopolitan Neopolitan is online now
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Originally Posted by JoshuaRanch View Post
AZCat, I know that's the percentages that are always stated, but in reality, I believe its closer to 1 out of 10. A big family of kids, there always is one who is gay it seems.
This is the sort of scientific logic & reasoning that think tanks pay the big bucks for.

But other than that, great post. Seriously.
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  #218  
Old 07-10-17, 10:22 PM
arizonawildcat arizonawildcat is offline
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Originally Posted by JoshuaRanch View Post
AZCat, I know that's the percentages that are always stated, but in reality, I believe its closer to 1 out of 10. A big family of kids, there always is one who is gay it seems. Most families it exists, someone is gay, a cousin, an aunt, an uncle. Think about your extended family. There is usually a black sheep, usually someone who is gay. I can't think of any families I know that don't have this. So I think it might be a little higher, I'm saying 1 in 10, just my humble opinion.

I have a sister who is gay. She doesn't want to be gay, but she is. She tried going out with guys, was forced to, but felt nothing. She has been attracted to women since she was old enough to know. We've had many discussions about it. I accept her for what she is, a wonderful, caring, loving sister and human being. My parents had the toughest time with dealing with her being gay, I feel so sorry for her. They tried to suppress it, they tried to pray it away. It just is, that's how she feels. She has been in a very good relationship with a gal for 10 years. They are happy. I'm happy for them, my other 4 heterosexual brothers are happy for her and accept her as well. Why not, she's a great human being, fun, smart. She just likes being with gals - so what. God made her that way, its not something she learned or was forced to do. My Mom used to dress her in dresses and all the girly stuff, she hated it. And my sister is gorgeous, no one even guesses she's gay. Her female gay friends are gorgeous too. Its been funny over the years when my sister and some of her friends show up at family events and non family guys always want to know how they can get together with them. And my brothers and I just laugh. She was not abused mentally, sexually, emotionally or any way growing up. We went to a community church, where homosexuality was shunned. But the genetic forces behind being gay are so strong, and so real, she was still able to overcome the obstacles and be her true self. Good for her. If she ever gets married (she lives with her friend), I will gladly go, and hope they live a continued happy life. I could list another 100 examples of the above, same story. I truly believe that its genetic, although obviously some people make choices to be gay when they are not genetically gay. I believe that "chosen" type of deviant homosexuality is what the bible, or religion, is addressing. But the genetic burden - God did this for a purpose - what that is, we'll find out I guess when we die. We all have burdens, that one is a tough one to have.
The figure of 1 out of 10, or 10%, was the accepted norm fot many years, based primarily on the Kinsey Report in the 1940's. Modern researchers, however, have discredited many of Kinsey's findings because of his faulty methods of gathering statistics. Kinsey came up with his hypothesis of 10% of the population being homosexual based on one central question that he posed to those participating in the study, "Have you had sexual relations with another man within the past six months?" 10% of the respondents replied "yes." Hence the long standing position that 10% of the population was gay. When modern researchers did an analysis of Kinsey's findings, they found that the majority of the participants in his study were men residing in prison. Hence the study was flawed by not interviewing more varied seghments of the general population. (If anything, I thought the 10% figure was kind of low considering the sexual opportunities available to the respondents.)

In the 2000's a more extensive study was done in Denmark that covered the general populations of the Scandinvian countries. These countries are not nearly as religious as the US and where homosexuality was not frowned upon as it is the Us. These Danish researchers came up with the figure that 2.5 to 4% of the people surveyed were gay, with the actual number tending to the lower figure. Hence the acceptance of these figures as more accurate in determing the gay population.

Minorites generally try to inflate their numbers in order to prove that their behavior is not that different from the general population. The gay population has been very successful in accomplishing this.
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  #219  
Old 07-11-17, 01:21 AM
eastisbest eastisbest is offline
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What is the significance of the 10%?

Do the arguments change if someone believes it is 1% or 20%?
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  #220  
Old 07-11-17, 07:32 AM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eastisbest View Post
What is the significance of the 10%?

Do the arguments change if someone believes it is 1% or 20%?
I don't think the cultural argument changes much but the prioritization of this issue is greatly impacted by whether we're talking about "1% or 20%" of the population.

As an aside ArizonaWildcat's numbers are the ones that are currently accepted as representing the most accurate estimate of the % of adults who are homosexual. However, as JR noted for me the critical issue is whether homosexuality is "cultural" or "biological" and the data to date supports that it is in fact a biological deviation from the "norm".

As a biological condition, some level of accommodation should be made. But this works both ways and both the gay community & religious conservatives will need to practice a bit of "live & let live". An example of this would be that society should provide a legal avenue for gays to "marry" (civil unions) in order to afford them the full legal protections of marriage. At the same time no church should be forced to religiously sanction such marriages and no business should be forced to provide services to the ceremony/celebration. It seems like common sense and basic kindness can go a long way towards ratcheting down the hostility here.
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  #221  
Old 07-11-17, 07:38 AM
SWMCinci SWMCinci is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eastisbest View Post
What is the significance of the 10%?

Do the arguments change if someone believes it is 1% or 20%?
What if the number was 50%? There's a number where the general population needs to deal with it (or "care") and there's a number that makes it an individual effort. As a society we don't "care" about snoring unless we know someone that has the problem (or listen to Jimmy more than once), if half the population suffered from it we would be wondering why the government hadn't cured it, or why people that are afflicted have to sleep on the couch - why wasn't the government passing laws to protect their access to a bed?

At 1% you are on your own, you probably aren't going to get special legislation or consideration.
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  #222  
Old 07-11-17, 10:38 AM
eastisbest eastisbest is offline
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Originally Posted by lotr10 View Post
I don't think the cultural argument changes much but the prioritization of this issue is greatly impacted by whether we're talking about "1% or 20%" of the population.
.
It might prioritize the politics, is that what you mean? I'm pretty sure we as a country are based upon a premise that does not prioritize rights of the individual based upon any demographics. As a goal anyhow.

I'd say I approximately equate "culture" and "politics." Not sure if that's dumb or not. Seems to make sense. There are socialization and political aspects of our government that would more likely address 20% than 1% so from that POV, I think the cultural argument changes. I suppose other aspects ( religion and morality is what you're thinking? ) do not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SWMCinci View Post
What if the number was 50%? There's a number where the general population needs to deal with it (or "care") and there's a number that makes it an individual effort. As a society we don't "care" about snoring unless we know someone that has the problem (or listen to Jimmy more than once), if half the population suffered from it we would be wondering why the government hadn't cured it, or why people that are afflicted have to sleep on the couch - why wasn't the government passing laws to protect their access to a bed?

At 1% you are on your own, you probably aren't going to get special legislation or consideration.
Yeah, I think that's what we sussed out. Making better sense to me.

Some aspects of the debate change if the nuber changes. It leads to a strong potential of disengenous reasons to swing that number one way or the other. I presume the "10%" came from somewhere? If someone is going to argue it is higher or lower, it would seem that would have to defend their reasons that number isn't correct?

Regardless, that's politics. The way I'm reading some of these opinions, they would vary the worth of the individual based upon that number. I couldn't agree with that.
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  #223  
Old 07-11-17, 10:48 AM
BlueJayFan BlueJayFan is offline
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Originally Posted by JoshuaRanch View Post
AZCat, I know that's the percentages that are always stated, but in reality, I believe its closer to 1 out of 10. A big family of kids, there always is one who is gay it seems. Most families it exists, someone is gay, a cousin, an aunt, an uncle. Think about your extended family. There is usually a black sheep, usually someone who is gay. I can't think of any families I know that don't have this. So I think it might be a little higher, I'm saying 1 in 10, just my humble opinion.

I have a sister who is gay. She doesn't want to be gay, but she is. She tried going out with guys, was forced to, but felt nothing. She has been attracted to women since she was old enough to know. We've had many discussions about it. I accept her for what she is, a wonderful, caring, loving sister and human being. My parents had the toughest time with dealing with her being gay, I feel so sorry for her. They tried to suppress it, they tried to pray it away. It just is, that's how she feels. She has been in a very good relationship with a gal for 10 years. They are happy. I'm happy for them, my other 4 heterosexual brothers are happy for her and accept her as well. Why not, she's a great human being, fun, smart. She just likes being with gals - so what. God made her that way, its not something she learned or was forced to do. My Mom used to dress her in dresses and all the girly stuff, she hated it. And my sister is gorgeous, no one even guesses she's gay. Her female gay friends are gorgeous too. Its been funny over the years when my sister and some of her friends show up at family events and non family guys always want to know how they can get together with them. And my brothers and I just laugh. She was not abused mentally, sexually, emotionally or any way growing up. We went to a community church, where homosexuality was shunned. But the genetic forces behind being gay are so strong, and so real, she was still able to overcome the obstacles and be her true self. Good for her. If she ever gets married (she lives with her friend), I will gladly go, and hope they live a continued happy life. I could list another 100 examples of the above, same story. I truly believe that its genetic, although obviously some people make choices to be gay when they are not genetically gay. I believe that "chosen" type of deviant homosexuality is what the bible, or religion, is addressing. But the genetic burden - God did this for a purpose - what that is, we'll find out I guess when we die. We all have burdens, that one is a tough one to have.
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  #224  
Old 07-11-17, 11:54 AM
Monclova Steve Monclova Steve is offline
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Originally Posted by JoshuaRanch View Post
AZCat, I know that's the percentages that are always stated, but in reality, I believe its closer to 1 out of 10. A big family of kids, there always is one who is gay it seems. Most families it exists, someone is gay, a cousin, an aunt, an uncle. Think about your extended family. There is usually a black sheep, usually someone who is gay. I can't think of any families I know that don't have this. So I think it might be a little higher, I'm saying 1 in 10, just my humble opinion.

I have a sister who is gay. She doesn't want to be gay, but she is. She tried going out with guys, was forced to, but felt nothing. She has been attracted to women since she was old enough to know. We've had many discussions about it. I accept her for what she is, a wonderful, caring, loving sister and human being. My parents had the toughest time with dealing with her being gay, I feel so sorry for her. They tried to suppress it, they tried to pray it away. It just is, that's how she feels. She has been in a very good relationship with a gal for 10 years. They are happy. I'm happy for them, my other 4 heterosexual brothers are happy for her and accept her as well. Why not, she's a great human being, fun, smart. She just likes being with gals - so what. God made her that way, its not something she learned or was forced to do. My Mom used to dress her in dresses and all the girly stuff, she hated it. And my sister is gorgeous, no one even guesses she's gay. Her female gay friends are gorgeous too. Its been funny over the years when my sister and some of her friends show up at family events and non family guys always want to know how they can get together with them. And my brothers and I just laugh. She was not abused mentally, sexually, emotionally or any way growing up. We went to a community church, where homosexuality was shunned. But the genetic forces behind being gay are so strong, and so real, she was still able to overcome the obstacles and be her true self. Good for her. If she ever gets married (she lives with her friend), I will gladly go, and hope they live a continued happy life. I could list another 100 examples of the above, same story. I truly believe that its genetic, although obviously some people make choices to be gay when they are not genetically gay. I believe that "chosen" type of deviant homosexuality is what the bible, or religion, is addressing. But the genetic burden - God did this for a purpose - what that is, we'll find out I guess when we die. We all have burdens, that one is a tough one to have.
A very well written post, JR. Wouldn't this be a wonderful world if we all had this amount of empathy and compassion for our fellow human beings? After all, almost everyone is someone's beloved family member.

I applaud you, sir.
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  #225  
Old 07-11-17, 12:11 PM
Gulliotine Gulliotine is offline
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Originally Posted by Monclova Steve View Post
A very well written post, JR. Wouldn't this be a wonderful world if we all had this amount of empathy and compassion for our fellow human beings? After all, almost everyone is someone's beloved family member.

I applaud you, sir.
That's frickin' hilarious.

You do understand JR is ShaunD?
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  #226  
Old 07-11-17, 12:17 PM
Monclova Steve Monclova Steve is offline
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Originally Posted by Gulliotine View Post
That's frickin' hilarious.

You do understand JR is ShaunD?
Of course I do. What is your point?
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  #227  
Old 07-11-17, 12:31 PM
Gulliotine Gulliotine is offline
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Originally Posted by Monclova Steve View Post
Of course I do. What is your point?
Lol

Considering your history, you're a damn poor judge of character.

Empathy, compassion, Shaun...coming from you, it's hilarious.
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  #228  
Old 07-11-17, 12:50 PM
14Red 14Red is offline
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Originally Posted by cabezadecaballo View Post
This is far from settled science. Those that support the notion of "born this way!" often start from the desired conclusion and work backward.

For example, a pattern of under-sized hypothalami in practicing homosexuals has been cited as proof of genetic pre-disposition toward homo-sexuality. That conclusion is absolutely biased and meaningless without proof that this has always been the individual's condition AND that allowing one's prostate to be used as a punching bag doesn't shrink the hypothalamus. It's right at the opposite end of the spinal column, or "spinal beam" in this case, after all. Disparate hormonal release DOES cause different physiological changes in every developing person. Why would this situation not be the same ?

Even a physiological or genetic pre-disposition to gayness, if ever actually proven, doesn't mean that a person should be gay. Sorry.

Finally, any genetic cause, if ever truly established, doesn't change the fact that it is deviant behavior. It is a choice people should be free to make, but it's not another version of normal, and that is what many with the activist mindset would have us believe. That's a false notion.
Really good post.
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  #229  
Old 07-11-17, 01:14 PM
Monclova Steve Monclova Steve is offline
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Originally Posted by Gulliotine View Post
Lol

Considering your history, you're a damn poor judge of character.

Empathy, compassion, Shaun...coming from you, it's hilarious.
Thanks for your input.
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  #230  
Old 07-11-17, 01:32 PM
Gulliotine Gulliotine is offline
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Originally Posted by Monclova Steve View Post
Thanks for your input.
Thanks for your face-plant.

Remember when you said I reminded you of your sister?
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  #231  
Old 07-11-17, 02:01 PM
Monclova Steve Monclova Steve is offline
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I'm sorry I hit a hot button of yours by praising someone's post. Oh well.

I love my sister, so it must have been a high compliment, but I don't remember the post.

I have 2 sisters. One is a very conservative (but not partisan) individual who can discuss issues without any personal attacks. We have had many civil arguments which have gone on into the wee hours of the morning....and we hug each other at the end. The other is a 23-year old with Down Syndrome who is the love of our lives.

Last edited by Monclova Steve; 07-11-17 at 02:14 PM.
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  #232  
Old 07-11-17, 02:05 PM
Raider6309 Raider6309 is offline
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The same people that say gay marriage is morally wrong let catholic priests rape young boys. The Bible was wrote by man and religion is man made.
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  #233  
Old 07-11-17, 02:17 PM
Gulliotine Gulliotine is offline
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Originally Posted by Monclova Steve View Post
I'm sorry I hit a hot button of yours by praising someone's post. Oh well.

I love my sister, so it must have been a compliment, but I don't remember the post.
You didn't hit a hot button, you praised Shaun...which is hilarious considering your history of calling him everything that's wrong with America.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monclova Steve View Post
Homer,
You remind me of my sister, who's one year older than me (she's 63, I'm 62). She lives in Dallas. If you could picture the typical Texas Republican, that's her -- Rick Perry lovin', Hannity lovin', Obama hatin', etc. She keeps Fox News on all day long.
Needless to say, we don't agree on much politically. However, we can talk all day about this stuff and still love each other. Maybe the key is that we actually listen to what the other has to say and we do it in the spirit of respect for each other.
I've learned that most people don't come on these forums to "discuss" issues. It has taken me a long time to learn that. You have helped me in that regard.
Now, I still try to bring facts to the table, since I see people forming opinions based on **** that they've seen or heard -- whether it's true or not. However, I've taken your approach much more than I used to by challenging people's posts much more directly -- as well as not taking this stuff so seriously LOL.
You know what? It's a lot more fun this way!
Thanks.
Does this refresh you memory? Thanks for the compliment.
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  #234  
Old 07-11-17, 02:24 PM
Monclova Steve Monclova Steve is offline
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Originally Posted by Gulliotine View Post
You didn't hit a hot button, you praised Shaun...which is hilarious considering your history of calling him everything that's wrong with America.



Does this refresh you memory?
Thanks for digging this out from the past. I didn't realize that my opinion of you meant so much. Obviously it does. Like I said, if I compared you with my sister, it must have been a pretty high compliment.

As for Joshua Ranch's post, all I can say is that it impressed me greatly.

I don't know what else to say. I don't know what any of this has to do with the point of the thread. Keep going if you wish. I'm done here.
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  #235  
Old 07-11-17, 02:39 PM
Gulliotine Gulliotine is offline
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Originally Posted by Monclova Steve View Post
Thanks for digging this out from the past. I didn't realize that my opinion of you meant so much. Obviously it does. Like I said, if I compared you with my sister, it must have been a pretty high compliment.

As for Joshua Ranch's post, all I can say is that it impressed me greatly.

I don't know what else to say. I don't know what any of this has to do with the point of the thread. Keep going if you wish. I'm done here.
Fair enough.

I'm glad you're still open-minded. You and Shaun breaking bread was the highlight of my day! lol
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  #236  
Old 07-11-17, 07:17 PM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
You should post more often, Joshua. Truly inspiring stuff.
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  #237  
Old 07-11-17, 07:20 PM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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Really good post.
gratzie
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  #238  
Old 08-13-17, 08:18 AM
Hammerin'Hank Hammerin'Hank is offline
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Just a final update on my original post of this thread. I did attend the reception of my friend's daughter. Being a longtime family friend, his daughter was very happy that I was there as were my friend and his wife. Everything went smoothly while I was there and I didn't stay very long. My final thought on all of this is that while I believe this is morally wrong, friendship is by far worth more than opinions (as long as nothing illegal is going on). I know they had other friends and even close relatives that didn't attend because of the situation. While my friend knows my stance on the situation and I question him inviting me because of it, our friendship is worth more to me than the bad feelings that could've occurred.
Thanks to all who have responded to this thread. It's a hot topic and one that folks struggle with morally. In the end, my thoughts on this subject haven't changed and my friendship is in tact.
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  #239  
Old 08-14-17, 01:21 AM
Kballer Kballer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammerin'Hank View Post
Just a final update on my original post of this thread. I did attend the reception of my friend's daughter. Being a longtime family friend, his daughter was very happy that I was there as were my friend and his wife. Everything went smoothly while I was there and I didn't stay very long. My final thought on all of this is that while I believe this is morally wrong, friendship is by far worth more than opinions (as long as nothing illegal is going on). I know they had other friends and even close relatives that didn't attend because of the situation. While my friend knows my stance on the situation and I question him inviting me because of it, our friendship is worth more to me than the bad feelings that could've occurred.
Thanks to all who have responded to this thread. It's a hot topic and one that folks struggle with morally. In the end, my thoughts on this subject haven't changed and my friendship is in tact.
I would give you a pat on the back, but you seem the type of guy who wouldn't want to be. You did what you did because you are decent human being who understood that it wasn't about how you felt, but how you made others feel.
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  #240  
Old 08-14-17, 01:31 AM
BlueJayFan BlueJayFan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammerin'Hank View Post
Just a final update on my original post of this thread. I did attend the reception of my friend's daughter. Being a longtime family friend, his daughter was very happy that I was there as were my friend and his wife. Everything went smoothly while I was there and I didn't stay very long. My final thought on all of this is that while I believe this is morally wrong, friendship is by far worth more than opinions (as long as nothing illegal is going on). I know they had other friends and even close relatives that didn't attend because of the situation. While my friend knows my stance on the situation and I question him inviting me because of it, our friendship is worth more to me than the bad feelings that could've occurred.
Thanks to all who have responded to this thread. It's a hot topic and one that folks struggle with morally. In the end, my thoughts on this subject haven't changed and my friendship is in tact.
Good on you for going. I'm glad you were able to make a special day even better for them.
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