Holding back a player in grade school - Page 3 - Yappi Sports

SLAGuy · #61 07-14-17, 09:43 PM

Kinda funny, the overbearing parents of academic superstars push their kids to skip grades. The overbearing parents of athletic superstars hold their kids back a grade (or two).

SuperD1 · #62 07-14-17, 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irish60

On another thread, there is a discussion about a freshman QB who was held back in the 7th grade, ostensibly to give him another year to physically develop before moving on to high school. This is NOT intended to be about that young man! There is a thread devoted to that already! My question here is, "Is this a growing trend?"; and "Is this a good/bad thing?" I remember seeing an ESPN 30/30 show about a kid who was held back a year and developed to the point where he earned a scholarship at Duke (although it was a little unclear to me whether he would have earned it had he not been held back). So, on the positive side, given the expense of college, I can't blame a family for holding their son back (especially in a violent sport like football) to give the kid time to physically mature and to put the player in a better position to earn a scholarship. On the other hand, I wonder about the social cost of holding a kid back and taking him out of the classroom with the other kids he has gone to school with for 7 years. Thoughts?

It's a great idea in the right circumstances. If your boy is going to change schools or is leaving public for private.
I'm not so sure holding a kid back while staying in the same public school is a great idea. The social and connected issues would probably outweigh the physical benefits.

ringer2 · #63 07-15-17, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trailsendcustom

Seems like you've never actually either had kids or talked to an elementary school teacher.

School districts in Ohio can choose one of two dates for kindergarten age. August 1st or September 30th. My son was born in the middle of August and he was 4 our community adopted the August 1st date. He was not ready to start school at 4 11/12ths years old and that extra year made all the difference in the world.

Not only have I raised three of my own children, I have been an elementary teacher and principal for 25 years. I think I can confidently state that I know more about this issue than anyone on this board. I've looked at the research. It is pretty clear that holding students back so that they are a year older than their class has no long term benefit to the student. Everyone's anecdotal evidence aside, that is what the research states. Those seen it made a difference have no real way of knowing what would have happened. The research is able to compare large groups of students in control settings. Much more reliable.

In your case, you actually didn't hold your child back a year. You used the district's August 1 start date and your child started in the appropriate year. I'm not talking about the situations.

In addition, we are creating an entire class of 19-year-olds who were still in high school. We are continuing to delay them leaving adolescence and moving on to adulthood. There is enough going on in our culture that prolongs adolescence without adding something on that provides no real benefit. Kids a few months away from being 20 should not be in high school.

ringer2 · #64 07-15-17, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chs1971

Science must be different where you live.

Not really. As an elementary school principal I'm pretty sure I know the science better than anyone on here. The point of disputation is not whether girls mature earlier. It's whether delaying the boys start of school makes a long-term difference. That is pretty much settled fact. It doesn't.

y2h · #65 07-15-17, 08:53 AM

The issue at hand is holding kids back in middle school for athletic reasons, not starting them later.

And holding kids back for athletic reasons is pathetic.

nooks · #66 07-15-17, 09:36 AM

I personally knew and played with/against kids in Jr. high, who were full-grown & shaving at 14. Did they have an athletic advantage over us 14 yr. old midgets? You'd better believe it. Did that advantage spill over into H.S.? You bet it did...But, and this is the big But, by the time we were freshman in college, a lot of us now grown midgets were not only competing equally against them, but were now better. Had we had that 1 extra year in H.S., it would have drastically leveled the H.S. playing field and allowed many reserve players (too small, not too untalented) to have played varsity. Now, think what that type of success & confidence has on every other aspect of a young man's social development during those impressionable years. At 5'7/140lbs., you weren't going to get the prom queen to look in your direction...but at 5'10/175...she might... Think about that...

Zezzo! · #67 07-15-17, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EastYoungstown

20th birthday you need a waiver of some sort

Plenty of 19 year olds that have played

Section 4-2-1

http://ohsaa.org/Portals/0/Eligibili...ocs/Bylaws.pdf

Kids can play after their 19th birthday however you must turn 19 after August 1st of your senior year. You Cannot turn 19 prior to 8/1 of your senior year and be eligible to play. The rule is you get 4 years(8 semesters) to compete in high school. As a 7th or 8th grader competing on a varsity level it will count against your 8 semesters. You totally cannot play as a 20 year-old in high school.

Kballer · #68 07-15-17, 01:27 PM

Not just boys anymore- the 2017 Ms. Ohio basketball player was a sophomore and much ado was being made about the fact that she was an underclassman. Turns out she was a 17 year old playing as a sophomore which while not taking away from her talent does lessen the "wow she's only a sophomore" part of it.

Yappi · #69 07-15-17, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zezzo!

Kids can play after their 19th birthday however you must turn 19 after August 1st of your senior year. You Cannot turn 19 prior to 8/1 of your senior year and be eligible to play.

That was the old rule. The new rule is that you can play until your 20th birthday. So if you turn 20 on September 9th, you can play a football game on September 8th.

Quote:

Section 2. Age Limitation
4-2-1 Once a student attains the age of 20, the student will no longer be eligible for interscholastic athletic competition notwithstanding where that 20th birthday falls in relation to the sports season.

EXCEPTION 1: If the student is a “child with a disability” as that term is defined within the Ohio Operating Standards for the Education of Children with Disabilities and Part B of the Federal IDEIA requirements and the student’s specific disability was diagnosed contemporaneouswith the events which caused the student to be unable to meet the requirements of this bylaw; and whose disability is the primary reason for student’s inability to meet the requirements of this bylaw, that student may be declared eligible by the Commissioner’s office if, in the sole discretion of the Commissioner’s office, the Commissioner’s office determines that:

a) the student does not pose a safety risk to himself/herself or others; and
b) the student does not enjoy any advantages in terms of physical maturity, mental maturity or athletic maturity over other student-athletes; and
c) the student would not likely participate in any meaningful way in any contest or otherwise have any impact on the outcome of any contest in which the student does participate; and
d) there is no evidence of “red-shirting” or other indicia of academic dishonesty

king kong · #70 07-15-17, 02:01 PM

Have 3 kids, have taught Jr High for 15 years. My oldest son has a November bday, he will graduate at 18, my middle daughter has a late June bday, she will graduate at 17. My youngest son has a mid July bday and will graduate at 18 and 10 months.

My oldest is average height, but definitely way immature, he is 13 now and still built like a pre teen. I am 6'5", wife is 5'6", and both sides of family has most well above average height wise. He struggles with playing time, not fast enough for skill positions and is undersized for line. He will grow, but struggling now with sports. We will not hold him back, solid academically and socially.

Daughter just turned 11, 5'1", and starting puberty, Lord help me! Lol. She is tall and lean, but she doesn't stand out since she is a year younger than most of her peers. She has a lot of success in sports and academics.

My youngest struggled with reading in pre school, spoke with his teachers, principal and guidance counselor and they agreed that he wasn't ready for Kindergarten, so he will be older than his peers. However, like my oldest, he is average height, but he is quick and agile, so when he reaches sports age, he is 8 now, just turned, he will be ok.

There is a local school, Wheelersburg, who has the pre kindergarten and pre first grade, they are almost always filled with boys whose parents were athletes! Lol

Holding back or starting late was completely on an individual basis with our children.

Cali_Eagle · #71 07-15-17, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yappi

That was the old rule. The new rule is that you can play until your 20th birthday. So if you turn 20 on September 9th, you can play a football game on September 8th.

Question for you Yappi, (or any other member with an informed answer). I was under the impression that a player in Ohio CANNOT do what Tim Couch did in Kentucky which was to start at QB for his HS team from seventh or eighth grade on. I am under the impression that you can play only 4 seasons on the varsity or at HS level (counting JV, a "B" team etc.).

I base this on reading an article in the Cleveland Plain Dealer (admittedly, this a long time ago.) about Shaw High School and a 14 year old, 9th grade starting qb they had (I believe he was named John Talley and was related to Buffalo Bills Super Bowl LB Darryl Talley, of "Where ELSE would you rather be today, Darryl?? !!!" fame - questioned by Marv Levy pre game.) The article discussed the State regulations at length, but of course that was decades ago and they have probably changed.

Is there a limitation on how much football (limit on seasons) that one can play in Ohio High School football? Thanx to Yappi or any other informed poster with the answer.

playboi12 · #72 07-15-17, 09:56 PM

We've reached a sad state of affairs if being held back a grade is no longer fricking embarrassing.

Kballer · #73 07-15-17, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by playboi12

We've reached a sad state of affairs if being held back a grade is no longer fricking embarrassing.

If the end goal is to get better looks from college teams and it works out and they get a scholarship- quite the opposite.

ohsaa1 · #74 07-17-17, 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arizonawildcat

As long as the parents are willing to pay the costs for keeping the child back in the same grade, I have no problem with it other than the harm it does to the child's socialization skills.

When we decided to let "kids" play until they are 20 years old a parent is foolish not to hold their son or daughter back. when we make rules to make certain groups happy you get these problems. Don't complain if your son is playing football as a senior at 17 versus a kid that is 19. the problem is the rule not the parents following the rule. "socialization skills" will be improved with maturity.

eastisbest · #75 07-17-17, 07:01 AM

I think they're pretty much expected to be Alg II ready in Kindergarten these days so holding a kid back a year doesn't seem a bad idea. I was held back a year, the year after high school. Worked in a gas station, had some pocket money and freedom. Pretty sure I didn't mature. Probably immatured a couple years, which did make me more college ready.

Holding a kid back a year for "athletics?" That's got loser written all over it. Admittedly generally judgmental but if for reasons other than medical, if a parent hasn't gotten their kid ready for academics or maturity to sit in a classroom with 29 other kids without bouncing off the walls or nodding off, then attempting to fix the mistake by holding the kid back and better preparing them at home is probably good decision making. Starting at the same start line even if older I think easier than continually trying to catch up.

EastYoungstown · #76 07-17-17, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zezzo!

Kids can play after their 19th birthday however you must turn 19 after August 1st of your senior year. You Cannot turn 19 prior to 8/1 of your senior year and be eligible to play. The rule is you get 4 years(8 semesters) to compete in high school. As a 7th or 8th grader competing on a varsity level it will count against your 8 semesters. You totally cannot play as a 20 year-old in high school.

that's why I posted a link to the rules.

EastYoungstown · #77 07-17-17, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cali_Eagle

Question for you Yappi, (or any other member with an informed answer). I was under the impression that a player in Ohio CANNOT do what Tim Couch did in Kentucky which was to start at QB for his HS team from seventh or eighth grade on. I am under the impression that you can play only 4 seasons on the varsity or at HS level (counting JV, a "B" team etc.).

I base this on reading an article in the Cleveland Plain Dealer (admittedly, this a long time ago.) about Shaw High School and a 14 year old, 9th grade starting qb they had (I believe he was named John Talley and was related to Buffalo Bills Super Bowl LB Darryl Talley, of "Where ELSE would you rather be today, Darryl?? !!!" fame - questioned by Marv Levy pre game.) The article discussed the State regulations at length, but of course that was decades ago and they have probably changed.

Is there a limitation on how much football (limit on seasons) that one can play in Ohio High School football? Thanx to Yappi or any other informed poster with the answer.

Yes. once you start playing a sport, the clock starts ticking on your 8 consecutive semesters (4 school years) of eligibility.

If you start early, you finish early.

clarkgriswold · #78 07-17-17, 09:02 AM

NFL player Kelvin Benjamin's high school career in Florida ended in mid-season when he turned 20. His wife and 4 kids were devastated.

Arrogate · #79 07-17-17, 09:11 AM

My parents held my youngest brother back for solely academic, social, and maturity reasons in kindergarten. Actually he went to two different schools and repeated kindergarten.
The three other children didn't repeat or were held back

He also didn't play any sports in high school

TR1982 · #80 07-17-17, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nooks

I personally knew and played with/against kids in Jr. high, who were full-grown & shaving at 14. Did they have an athletic advantage over us 14 yr. old midgets? You'd better believe it. Did that advantage spill over into H.S.? You bet it did...But, and this is the big But, by the time we were freshman in college, a lot of us now grown midgets were not only competing equally against them, but were now better. Had we had that 1 extra year in H.S., it would have drastically leveled the H.S. playing field and allowed many reserve players (too small, not too untalented) to have played varsity. Now, think what that type of success & confidence has on every other aspect of a young man's social development during those impressionable years. At 5'7/140lbs., you weren't going to get the prom queen to look in your direction...but at 5'10/175...she might... Think about that...

i was 5'7 150 when i graduated. had no problem w/ the ladies and started at RB from 10-12 and had 1000yd seasons. if you want to be great and succeed in life you just go do it.

Irish60 · #81 07-17-17, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EastYoungstown

Yes. once you start playing a sport, the clock starts ticking on your 8 consecutive semesters (4 school years) of eligibility.

If you start early, you finish early.

You are correct once again EY! And, although I have no idea if it is true, there was a rumor that this was one of the reasons VJ King transferred from STVM after his sophomore year. I believe he played varsity as a 7-8 grader in NC before coming to Ohio. Then he transferred to a school in Virginia where this rule doesn't apply. Whether this was part of his decision-making or not, he's at Louisville, so it all worked out OK for the young man!

Lambeau Fields · #82 07-17-17, 09:42 AM

I'm curious as to what the impact would be if football rosters and programs posted Height-Weight-Position-Age instead of Height-Weight-Position-Grade.

Or if wrestling brackets posted Weight Class & Age as opposed to Weight Class & Grade.

Gardens35 · #83 07-17-17, 09:52 AM

^^^ Would have to add a "This week's Birthdays" tab to the program. ^^^

serpico · #84 07-17-17, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lambeau Fields

I'm curious as to what the impact would be if football rosters and programs posted Height-Weight-Position-Age instead of Height-Weight-Position-Grade.

Believe it or not, they were listed this way in the state finals programs back in the early 2000's. I know this because some Mogadore fans on the Huddle protested that Marion Local had 'too many' 18-year old seniors playing.

chs1971 · #85 07-17-17, 09:56 AM

Parents spend a small fortune on camps, coaches, clinics, and travel leagues, and then spend more money on motels, meals, gas, and sometimes airline tickets on their child's sports career. But hold your kid back a year in school, or start them late, which costs nothing, and some people act like it is child abuse, or cheating.

Read the chapters about age and athletic success in professional sports in the book Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell.

chs1971 · #86 07-17-17, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lambeau Fields

I'm curious as to what the impact would be if football rosters and programs posted Height-Weight-Position-Age instead of Height-Weight-Position-Grade.

Or if wrestling brackets posted Weight Class & Age as opposed to Weight Class & Grade.

Impact on what?

Irish60 · #87 07-17-17, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chs1971

Parents spend a small fortune on camps, coaches, clinics, and travel leagues, and then spend more money on motels, meals, gas, and sometimes airline tickets on their child's sports career. But hold your kid back a year in school, or start them late, which costs nothing, and some people act like it is child abuse, or cheating.

Read the chapters about age and athletic success in professional sports in the book Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell.

Gladwell cherry picks his facts. I stopped giving his conclusions much credence when I read about his "10,000 hour rule"; that is, you will succeed at something if you practice correctly for 10,000 hours... Well, yeah!!!!

fbrox · #88 07-17-17, 10:19 AM

It is a parent decision, however if the school believes the kid is academically qualified to advance and the parent decides to hold them back, the parent should have to pay the school district for one year of tuition.

fireflyer · #89 07-17-17, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clarkgriswold

NFL player Kelvin Benjamin's high school career in Florida ended in mid-season when he turned 20. His wife and 4 kids were devastated.

That's a laugh, but when I went to high school (paleo era) in GA, our school was a powerhouse but had problems beating this one rural school. Turns out they were playing 5 20-year-olds!! No rules back then--you only had to be a full time student in high school. We later learned, in fact, that one of those 20-year-olds was indeed married and had a baby! They passed the age laws later.

Lambeau Fields · #90 07-17-17, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chs1971

Impact on what?

Parents' decision to red-shirt their kids.