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  #61  
Old 06-01-15, 11:12 PM
Oil Filter Oil Filter is offline
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Originally Posted by Crusaders View Post
Sure, when the benefits will be in the billions.
Billions? Put down the bong.

Like they are in Sandusky, where the the city is rolling in dough from Cedar Point? Why, then, is Sandusky laying off employees in droves and not paving roads if they're sitting on this gusher of money?

The revenue from 3.4 million tourists hasn't turned Sandusky into a boom town. The NFL won't be lining anyone's pockets but their own.

They're smarter than you. That's their strategy. And it's working.
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  #62  
Old 06-02-15, 10:12 AM
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Not all at once and no one said anything about a boomtown, either. Get your imagination under control.

You Cedar Point is the only thing Sandusky relies on for industry, employment, and tax revenue?

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  #63  
Old 06-02-15, 10:33 AM
Egret Egret is offline
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Originally Posted by Crusaders View Post
Not all at once and no one said anything about a boomtown, either. Get your imagination under control.

You Cedar Point is the only thing Sandusky relies on for industry, employment, and tax revenue?

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If you are talking about a "billion" dollars in revenue I'm telling you "not all at once" means not in you or your childrens' lifetimes. And yes, a billion dollars in revenue would make it a boomtown. Look, I hope the thing succeeds. That area needs it. But you are obviously not a business person because you are talking crazy with these numbers you are throwing out.

Oil Filter will debate this till the cows come home so you have two choices: continue to respond and debate, or just let it go and move on.
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  #64  
Old 06-02-15, 10:34 AM
McK93 McK93 is offline
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Originally Posted by Crusaders View Post
I think your imagination here is getting in the way; you imagining nothing but failure for absolutely no reason at all other than simply being illogically pessimistic.
You just summed up his entire life in one sentence.
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  #65  
Old 06-02-15, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Mackinbiner View Post
In this back-and-forth, I keep trying to weigh who knows more about whether or not this project will go through and succeed.

On one side is the multi-billion dollar marketing monster that is the NFL.

On the other side is Oil Filter.

NFL or Oil Filter?

NFL or Oil Filter?

Hmmmmm?
This guy would argue against curing cancer because it doesn't feed all the world's hungry children.
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  #66  
Old 06-02-15, 10:39 AM
Mackinbiner Mackinbiner is offline
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Originally Posted by Oil Filter View Post
Why, then, is Sandusky laying off employees in droves and not paving roads if they're sitting on this gusher of money?
Although this may make for a good story, it is absolutely untrue.
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  #67  
Old 06-02-15, 10:40 AM
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It's what $3.4 billion over a few years? Like I said, not all at once, but certainly within my lifetime. And it's not revenue, it's economic impact, two very different things.

I swear, if this is the type of thinking that goes on in Stark County, it's no wonder it is where it is.

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  #68  
Old 06-02-15, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Crusaders View Post
I swear, if this is the type of thinking that goes on in Stark County, it's no wonder it is where it is.
No it's just the Massillon narrative....the HOF is going to keep the city of Canton afloat, Massillon on the other hand is in economic downfall and needs to put down Canton to raise its already depressed state.

Keep in mind, OF is bagging on the expansion plans for more opportunities to raise in the economic growth in this sluggish area, but you wouldn't hear a peep out of him for the Massillon booster club dishing out 20k on helmets that serve a purpose maybe once a year.
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  #69  
Old 06-02-15, 11:23 AM
Egret Egret is offline
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Originally Posted by Crusaders View Post
It's what $3.4 billion over a few years? Like I said, not all at once, but certainly within my lifetime. And it's not revenue, it's economic impact, two very different things.

I swear, if this is the type of thinking that goes on in Stark County, it's no wonder it is where it is.

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Once again, I'm not being pessimistic. I'm being realistic. I HOPE it succeeds. Tell me the difference between "revenue" and "economic impact". Economic impact means peripheral businesses (restaurants, hotels, car rental, etc.) gain additional business. That's called revenue my friend. Personally, I think it will be very popular. I'm only questioning your overly-optimistic view of the numbers. That's all.
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  #70  
Old 06-02-15, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Egret View Post
Once again, I'm not being pessimistic. I'm being realistic. I HOPE it succeeds. Tell me the difference between "revenue" and "economic impact". Economic impact means peripheral businesses (restaurants, hotels, car rental, etc.) gain additional business. That's called revenue my friend. Personally, I think it will be very popular. I'm only questioning your overly-optimistic view of the numbers. That's all.
Revenue to the city (taxes) and economic impact (money to businesses) are not the same numbers.

I'm going with the projections I've read about it, which states $15 billion or so over 25 years. Even if it's half that, the investment is worth it.
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  #71  
Old 06-02-15, 11:34 AM
Egret Egret is offline
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Originally Posted by Crusaders View Post
Revenue to the city (taxes) and economic impact (money to businesses) are not the same numbers.

I'm going with the projections I've read about it, which states $15 billion or so over 25 years. Even if it's half that, the investment is worth it.
Revenue is revenue whether it's business or taxes. It's just a play on words and how it's re-invested. Look, if it is half of what you just quoted it's more than worth it. It's phenomenal. To say the least.
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  #72  
Old 06-02-15, 11:36 AM
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The projection isn't $15 billion in tax revenue, it's $15 billion in economic impact. If you want to play semantics, then sure "revenue" is "revenue": taxes are revenue, so is the money businesses make, however taxes and business revenue are different numbers. Does the "economic impact" figure include one? Both? I don't know, but they're certainly not the same thing, which is what it seemed OF was making them out to be.
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  #73  
Old 06-02-15, 11:38 AM
Oil Filter Oil Filter is offline
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Originally Posted by Egret View Post
Economic impact means peripheral businesses (restaurants, hotels, car rental, etc.) gain additional business.
Key word: additional. A lot of people don't realize that. If a guy drives over from Pittsburgh who would have otherwise stayed home, that's economic impact. If a local guy eats at an on-site HOF restaurant instead of the Winking Lizard, that isn't. Cannibalism ain't revenue. If places in Belden and the strip start closing because the new places in the HOF village took their business, that's not positive. It may be the free market at work -- which is all well and good -- but it hardly requires millions in local funds to make that happen.

If you want an idea of expected visitors, see how people bet with their own money. Look at new hotel construction. Look at the number of on-site hotel rooms. Example: Disney's profit growth is driven by upswings in hotel revenue. This is no secret, and the NFL surely knows this. Capitalists that they are, they're not going to surrender Joe Sixpack's business to the Hampton Inn if they can reel him in to their property instead. If they're building but one small hotel, they're not expecting a parade of families to a destination resort. If they're not expecting that kind of business, perhaps it would be foolish for others to.
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  #74  
Old 06-02-15, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Crusaders View Post
Sure, when the benefits will be in the billions.

I can see that you are simply one of those people who don't actually think, you just say no to everything.

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Do you believe everything you read? Those projected numbers are wildly optimistic by any measure. Heck the people who came up with them couldn't believe them.
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  #75  
Old 06-02-15, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Oil Filter View Post
Key word: additional. A lot of people don't realize that. If a guy drives over from Pittsburgh who would have otherwise stayed home, that's economic impact. If a local guy eats at an on-site HOF restaurant instead of the Winking Lizard, that isn't. Cannibalism ain't revenue. If places in Belden and the strip start closing because the new places in the HOF village took their business, that's not positive. It may be the free market at work -- which is all well and good -- but it hardly requires millions in local funds to make that happen.

If you want an idea of expected visitors, see how people bet with their own money. Look at new hotel construction. Look at the number of on-site hotel rooms. Example: Disney's profit growth is driven by upswings in hotel revenue. This is no secret, and the NFL surely knows this. Capitalists that they are, they're not going to surrender Joe Sixpack's business to the Hampton Inn if they can reel him in to their property instead. If they're building but one small hotel, they're not expecting a parade of families to a destination resort. If they're not expecting that kind of business, perhaps it would be foolish for others to.
The HOF itself does indeed count toward that economic impact. If the city gets the taxes from someone eating at Winking Lizard, they'll get the taxes from someone eating at a HOF Grille or whatever. And now you've got an additional restaurant for people to be employed in. All of that is economic impact. While you may say that it's simply spreading the butter thinner, that is not correct since a lot of the HOF impact would be people from outside the area bringing in outside money.

The hotel on site is primarily for the NFL players that come to play for the enshrinement game; they stay in Cleveland now. They're not building a theme park where people are going to want weekend passes. Besides that, have you not noticed the many new hotels that have sprung up around Canton recently? If you want to talk about the market, then you're seeing it respond to the increased popularity of the HOF and its events. So, if someone visiting the HOF wants to stay in Canton, they have options.

Like I said before, you have to spend money to make money, and sometimes a city has to do things to help get the ball rolling. Helping fund projects like this or something like a Civic Center replacement as part of a larger development, coinciding with all of the HOF buzz, and the NFL hosting the draft here would be great. Cities the size of Canton rarely have such opportunities.

Of all the places to worry about, Belden and the Strip should be the least of them. They're both almost entirely filled with international and national businesses that basically funnel money out of the area.
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  #76  
Old 06-02-15, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by y2h View Post
Do you believe everything you read? Those projected numbers are wildly optimistic by any measure. Heck the people who came up with them couldn't believe them.
Like I said before, even if they're off by half it is still an any decision to make: fund it.
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  #77  
Old 06-02-15, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Oil Filter View Post
If places in Belden and the strip start closing because the new places in the HOF village took their business, that's not positive.
That won't happen, those places were built to service the locals not relying on non residents. The big bad Walmart comes to town, Fischer Foods is still running smoothly, look at all the local drug stores. Walmart hasn't changed the local businesses in Stark Co and the expansion of the HOF isn't going to impact the local either.

There is a reason OF isn't welcomed to the new Massillon site.
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  #78  
Old 06-02-15, 12:21 PM
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The hotel on site is primarily for the NFL players that come to play for the enshrinement game; they stay in Cleveland now.
Do you read the stuff that you write? The NFL is building a hotel to use two nights a year?

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Originally Posted by Crusaders View Post
Besides that, have you not noticed the many new hotels that have sprung up around Canton recently? If you want to talk about the market, then you're seeing it respond to the increased popularity of the HOF and its events.
So, they're building new hotels to service the current boom in HOF visitors -- but the number of HOF visitors has showed no such explosion. Conclusion: that's not why those hotels are being built.

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Like I said before, you have to spend money to make money, and sometimes a city has to do things to help get the ball rolling.
Your enthusiasm is cute, but your knowledge of investment theory is abysmal. No one has suggested that this (or anything) should be built for free. What is being said is that the return should justify the investment. If (as you suggest) Canton should spend $250 million on this project, then there had better be a clear path to well over $250 million in additional city revenue as a result. And yes, that's direct revenue and not some nebulously defined "economic impact". Because, ya see, when the city borrows that $250 million, they're going to have to pay it back with interest. And the lenders are not going to accept your economic projections as payment.

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Originally Posted by Crusaders View Post
Of all the places to worry about, Belden and the Strip should be the least of them. It is all international and national businesses that basically funnel money out of the area.
And NFL headquarters are in Canton?
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  #79  
Old 06-02-15, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Oil Filter View Post
Do you read the stuff that you write? The NFL is building a hotel to use two nights a year?
Obviously, they expect other people to stay there, but the biggest reason is so the teams don't have to stay an hour away.

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Originally Posted by Oil Filter View Post
So, they're building new hotels to service the current boom in HOF visitors -- but the number of HOF visitors has showed no such explosion. Conclusion: that's not why those hotels are being built.
These hotels are indeed being built to service the HOF visitors, including the enshrinement ceremony and game, and also the airport. There's nothing else happening in Canton to warrant such construction.

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Your enthusiasm is cute, but your knowledge of investment theory is abysmal. No one has suggested that this (or anything) should be built for free. What is being said is that the return should justify the investment. If (as you suggest) Canton should spend $250 million on this project, then there had better be a clear path to well over $250 million in additional city revenue as a result. And yes, that's direct revenue and not some nebulously defined "economic impact". Because, ya see, when the city borrows that $250 million, they're going to have to pay it back with interest. And the lenders are not going to accept your economic projections as payment.
Your pessimistic paranoia is anything but cute.

No crap, and when there's a few billion being brought to the local economy, naturally a bit of that is going to pour into the city's coffers. The projected impact is $15 billion over 25 years. Even if it's half that, the investment is completely worth it.


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And NFL headquarters are in Canton?
The more the NFL pays in, the more they're entitled to take out.
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  #80  
Old 06-02-15, 01:00 PM
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Most of the details are here

http://www.cantonrep.com/article/201...09977/?Start=3

Sounds beautiful and above all else...time will tell.
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  #81  
Old 06-02-15, 01:05 PM
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What I don't understand is how construction is planned to get underway and all anyone can provide is early renderings. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't a Canton City Planning Commission have to approve design and architecture before construction begins?
Can you build a stadium on the fly?
Seems like something is missing.
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  #82  
Old 06-02-15, 01:16 PM
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These hotels are indeed being built to service the HOF visitors, including the enshrinement ceremony and game, and also the airport. There's nothing else happening in Canton to warrant such construction.
Yeah -- because Hilton et al are also spending millions to rent rooms two nights a year.

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No crap, and when there's a few billion being brought to the local economy, naturally a bit of that is going to pour into the city's coffers.
Again, Cedar Fair (the parent company of Cedar Point) is in Sandusky. Their revenues exceed $1 billion per year. Sandusky gets revenue from an admissions tax (just like the sales tax surcharge and admissions tax being proposed for Canton). And yet, Sandusky is broke. They've laid off 25% of city employees. They're talking about closing fire stations. What makes you think that the HOF is going to be some gusher for Canton?

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The projected impact is $15 billion over 25 years. Even if it's half that, the investment is completely worth it.
If you could crap out gold ingots, the pain would be worth it. But that -- like these projections -- ain't never gonna happen.

Again, let's look to Cedar Point. The estimated economic impact for the entire Lake Erie Islands region is $1.8 billion per year from 9 million visitors. Suppose the number of visitors to the HOF increases 5-fold, to 1 million per year. If per visitor spending is the same as it is in the islands ($200 each), that is an annual impact of $200 million. That's a far cry from the $600 million that you're projecting. If the number of HOF visitors only triples, we're looking at an impact of about $120 million. Yeah, that's still a nice chunk of money. But when your share of that is a portion of the tax receipts, that won't go very far towards paying off a $250 million debt.

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The more the NFL pays in, the more they're entitled to take out.
How much is Applebee's "entitled" to take out? Don't recall any public funding devoted to their restaurant.

A server at Applebee's is no different than a server at some hypothetical NFL restaurant. Why should the latter (or his employer) get special treatment or being given a loftier status?
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  #83  
Old 06-02-15, 01:33 PM
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Yeah -- because Hilton et al are also spending millions to rent rooms two nights a year.
Of course not, they're building them to service the hundreds of people who need an overnight stay for business or a flight. Don't be dense. There's a major event that's attracting them.


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Again, Cedar Fair (the parent company of Cedar Point) is in Sandusky. Their revenues exceed $1 billion per year. Sandusky gets revenue from an admissions tax (just like the sales tax surcharge and admissions tax being proposed for Canton). And yet, Sandusky is broke. They've laid off 25% of city employees. They're talking about closing fire stations. What makes you think that the HOF is going to be some gusher for Canton?
I never said it would be a gusher, I said the investment would be worth it to make. You're the one jumping to "boomtown" conclusions. I've said it does not and would not equate to such a thing.

And again, you act as if Sandusky relies solely on Cedar Point for all of its government revenue. Tell what kind of shape you think it would be in if CP ever closed. Yeah, not good.


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If you could crap out gold ingots, the pain would be worth it. But that -- like these projections -- ain't never gonna happen.
So glad that you're an expert on these matters. I wonder why you spend so much time on here if you're such an investment wizard.

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Originally Posted by Oil Filter View Post
Again, let's look to Cedar Point. The estimated economic impact for the entire Lake Erie Islands region is $1.8 billion per year from 9 million visitors. Suppose the number of visitors to the HOF increases 5-fold, to 1 million per year. If per visitor spending is the same as it is in the islands ($200 each), that is an annual impact of $200 million. That's a far cry from the $600 million that you're projecting. If the number of HOF visitors only triples, we're looking at an impact of about $120 million. Yeah, that's still a nice chunk of money. But when your share of that is a portion of the tax receipts, that won't go very far towards paying off a $250 million debt.
If you just count the HOF and not all of the additional business and jobs created.


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How much is Applebee's "entitled" to take out? Don't recall any public funding devoted to their restaurant.
They'll take as much as they can get away with because they bought the land and built the building. The public has no claim to anything more than normal taxes from a privately funded business. I don't think you realize that you just helped prove my point.

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A server at Applebee's is no different than a server at some hypothetical NFL restaurant. Why should the latter (or his employer) get special treatment or being given a loftier status?
What are you talking about?

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  #84  
Old 06-02-15, 01:43 PM
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What I don't understand is how construction is planned to get underway and all anyone can provide is early renderings. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't a Canton City Planning Commission have to approve design and architecture before construction begins?
Can you build a stadium on the fly?
Seems like something is missing.
I believe they approved the plan last year, and the exact architecture, I guess, is what they're finalizing. Chances are the city is involved in that process.

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  #85  
Old 06-02-15, 02:16 PM
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I believe they approved the plan last year, and the exact architecture, I guess, is what they're finalizing. Chances are the city is involved in that process.

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The hotels being built in and around Canton were built for
1. Oil and Gas executives and workers.
2. Current Hall of Fame weekend crowd.

These hotels were being built and some completed long before the HOF expansion was even announced.
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  #86  
Old 06-02-15, 02:31 PM
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I never said it would be a gusher, I said the investment would be worth it to make.
How much annual revenue would make the investment "worth it"? If Canton is going to -- as you suggest they should -- invest $250 million in this project, what return would be acceptable?
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  #87  
Old 06-02-15, 03:08 PM
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I believe they approved the plan last year, and the exact architecture, I guess, is what they're finalizing. Chances are the city is involved in that process.

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You can not approve exact architecture and finalize it today. That's the point.
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  #88  
Old 06-02-15, 03:09 PM
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I'm not sure what you mean, Dave.

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  #89  
Old 06-02-15, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Oil Filter View Post
How much annual revenue would make the investment "worth it"? If Canton is going to -- as you suggest they should -- invest $250 million in this project, what return would be acceptable?
I like how you want to limit it to annual instead of over time, because these things certainly aren't paid for after a single year. The projection is over 25 years. If brings in billions over that span, the project will be paid for well before the end of that time.

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  #90  
Old 06-02-15, 03:25 PM
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I like how you want to limit it to annual instead of over time, because these things certainly aren't paid for after a single year.
One year, 10 years, 25 years. Is the math too much for you?

It's a simple question: how much annual revenue should Canton expect to see for a $250 million investment?

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The projection is over 25 years. If brings in billions over that span, the project will be paid for well before the end of that time.
It's unlikely that the HOF will close its doors in 25 years, so why not give them 50 years to pay it off? Why not 100?
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