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  #31  
Old 05-31-15, 10:57 PM
Crusaders Crusaders is offline
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I'm sure some tax money will be used, but regardless, it will benefit the city. The HOF is way underutilized.

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  #32  
Old 05-31-15, 11:54 PM
Oil Filter Oil Filter is offline
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Originally Posted by Crusaders View Post
I'm sure some tax money will be used, but regardless, it will benefit the city.
Regardless? No matter how much money the city spends on this, it will be a benefit?

Example: a new interchange off 77. Who pays for it? How is it funded? What's the payback? Suppose that's an outlay of several million. How long to pay that off with a 1.5% sales tax surcharge and ticket tax?

If you think the city's going to make money, you better have a damn good idea of both the size and the scope of the revenue stream. Do you?

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  #33  
Old 06-01-15, 12:01 AM
Crusaders Crusaders is offline
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Originally Posted by Oil Filter View Post
Regardless? No matter how much money the city spends on this, it will be a benefit?

Example: a new interchange off 77. Who pays for it? How is it funded? What's the payback? Suppose that's an outlay of several million. How long to pay that off with a 1.5% sales tax surcharge and ticket tax?

If you think the city's going to make money, you better have a damn good idea of both the size and the scope of the revenue stream. Do you?



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Infrastructure is not a money making game, it's the bones that support. The ones who try to make it one fail most of the time.

Unless the HOF is going to be moved or people stop caring about football, it's going to be here a long time. Putting more things around it will only help to make it a bigger attraction. You have to spend money to make money, and really, a few hundred million to improve something we all KNOW is going to be around for a long time is a rare thing.

I'm not entirely sure what your objection is to this. It sounds like you would be against any kind of spending for anything. Don't be a NIMBY.

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Last edited by Crusaders; 06-01-15 at 12:36 AM.
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  #34  
Old 06-01-15, 03:16 AM
Oil Filter Oil Filter is offline
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Infrastructure is not a money making game, it's the bones that support. The ones who try to make it one fail most of the time.
Infrastructure is an investment. Ya know what what an investment is, don't you?

If there's no purpose other than building for its own sake, it is no longer an investment: it is a scam.

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Unless the HOF is going to be moved or people stop caring about football, it's going to be here a long time.
So is McKinley's tomb. Wanna spend a hundred million to make a theme park out of that?
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  #35  
Old 06-01-15, 03:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Oil Filter View Post
Infrastructure is an investment. Ya know what what an investment is, don't you?

If there's no purpose other than building for its own sake, it is no longer an investment: it is a scam.


So is McKinley's tomb. Wanna spend a hundred million to make a theme park out of that?
It's a base need; without infrastructure everything would struggle to function. It is an investment, but not one to expect direct return from. It's an investment that allows for a plethora of other things to make returns. It allows commerce to flow efficiently.

Now, for your example of a new interchange off of 77, a lot would depend on it. We need infrastructure improvements in this country in a bad way. Part of the problem is the mindset that infrastructure should be judged on it's direct returns. This is illogical and ignorant.

Are you seriously comparing the grave of a dead president to the Pro Football Hall of Fame?

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  #36  
Old 06-01-15, 08:05 AM
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I really, really would love to see all of this happen, but I am extremely skeptical. I hope this is all NFL money but I foresee them trying to pass this onto the area with tax increases. That is how they do it. Suck you in with some bait and leave you hanging. If that is the case, I say NOGO. The NFL is fat with cash, this area does not have it to fund these types of ventures and I hope not to see what I suspect is coming.

I'm all in favor of capitalism but I know how politicians and sports fat cats operate. Skeptical!
Healthy skepticism is appropriate. The plans sound great on paper but the vision and the end result are seldom the same. Roadblocks always come up on projects of this size, financing chief among them. The NFL could facilitate this project with the billions they are sitting on but seem content to let others do the heavy lifting. Heck they went begging Benson for money. Cautiously optimistic is the correct tone.

As for a tax increase it is coming...Shuring has a bill that would make the HOF a special tax district. it would increase the sales tax in that area. I'm sure there will be tax abatements for the project as well.
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  #37  
Old 06-01-15, 08:10 AM
longtime1sttime longtime1sttime is offline
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Here is a look at the construction planning process. http://m.cantonrep.com/article/20150...5/13308/SPORTS
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  #38  
Old 06-01-15, 10:20 AM
Oil Filter Oil Filter is offline
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Originally Posted by Crusaders View Post
It's a base need; without infrastructure everything would struggle to function. It is an investment, but not one to expect direct return from. It's an investment that allows for a plethora of other things to make returns. It allows commerce to flow efficiently.

Now, for your example of a new interchange off of 77, a lot would depend on it. We need infrastructure improvements in this country in a bad way. Part of the problem is the mindset that infrastructure should be judged on it's direct returns. This is illogical and ignorant.
If the investment is independent of the return (as you suggest), why not build a huge interchange in the middle of Noble County? There's nothing there, of course, but the inevitable efficient flow of commerce would justify the expense, no?

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Are you seriously comparing the grave of a dead president to the Pro Football Hall of Fame?
No, you are. Longevity was your criteria.
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  #39  
Old 06-01-15, 10:43 AM
Zwick_4_Prez Zwick_4_Prez is offline
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Originally Posted by longtime1sttime View Post
Here is a look at the construction planning process. http://m.cantonrep.com/article/20150...5/13308/SPORTS
As someone who's worked extensively with Welty during a building construction.... lol good luck.
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  #40  
Old 06-01-15, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Oil Filter View Post
If the investment is independent of the return (as you suggest), why not build a huge interchange in the middle of Noble County? There's nothing there, of course, but the inevitable efficient flow of commerce would justify the expense, no?


No, you are. Longevity was your criteria.
Infrastructure is a series of roadways, railways, etc. that connect something. A random interchange in the middle of no where, leading no where, connecting nothing, does not qualify. Stop using inane arguments. It's not helping you.

You brought up the McKinley stuff, not me. My criteria also included interest. The interest in McKinley's tomb is not equal, not even close.

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  #41  
Old 06-01-15, 01:38 PM
Oil Filter Oil Filter is offline
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Originally Posted by Crusaders View Post
Infrastructure is a series of roadways, railways, etc. that connect something. A random interchange in the middle of no where, leading no where, connecting nothing, does not qualify.
Sure it does. It connects I-77 to metropolitan Caldwell.

The HOF gets currently 200,000 visitors per year. How much will that grow and how much public investment does that justify?
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  #42  
Old 06-01-15, 02:08 PM
Crusaders Crusaders is offline
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Sure it does. It connects I-77 to metropolitan Caldwell.

The HOF gets currently 200,000 visitors per year. How much will that grow and how much public investment does that justify?
Then you would build to match the area. In case you haven't noticed, Canton is a bit bigger than Caldwell, thus requiring larger capacity interchanges. Your argument continues to be entirely inane.

I'm surprised it's that many considering how bare-bones the place really is. There is literally nothing around it but homes and a high school. When people ask me about the place from outside of town, I tell them that it's good to see once and there's nothing else to really do but walk through it. It only takes a couple hours. So, if that type of facility is bringing in nearly a quarter of a million visitors without even having so much as a football-themed restaurant on the premises, I can only imagine what kind of numbers these improvements would bring. The people proposing this have said the improvements would bring in Cedar Point-like numbers, annually (granted we're talking a 12 month window for the HOF complex compared to the ~6 month Cedar Point season).
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  #43  
Old 06-01-15, 02:55 PM
Oil Filter Oil Filter is offline
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TSo, if that type of facility is bringing in nearly a quarter of a million visitors without even having so much as a football-themed restaurant on the premises, I can only imagine what kind of numbers these improvements would bring.
Investments don't work on imagination. You need objective projections.

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The people proposing this have said the improvements would bring in Cedar Point-like numbers, annually (granted we're talking a 12 month window for the HOF complex compared to the ~6 month Cedar Point season).
That's 3.4 million visitors per year. And you believe this?

The HOF remains the attraction. The rest is an outlet mall with a hotel.
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  #44  
Old 06-01-15, 03:04 PM
LepsLB LepsLB is offline
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Then you would build to match the area. In case you haven't noticed, Canton is a bit bigger than Caldwell, thus requiring larger capacity interchanges. Your argument continues to be entirely inane.

I'm surprised it's that many considering how bare-bones the place really is. There is literally nothing around it but homes and a high school. When people ask me about the place from outside of town, I tell them that it's good to see once and there's nothing else to really do but walk through it. It only takes a couple hours. So, if that type of facility is bringing in nearly a quarter of a million visitors without even having so much as a football-themed restaurant on the premises, I can only imagine what kind of numbers these improvements would bring. The people proposing this have said the improvements would bring in Cedar Point-like numbers, annually (granted we're talking a 12 month window for the HOF complex compared to the ~6 month Cedar Point season).
AGAIN- If it is such a great investment, let the NFL open their deep pockets and pay for it.

BTW- where is all that infrastructure repair and "shovel-ready jobs" that Obama and the Left spent $800Billion on several years ago. It seems that this should have been done already....
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  #45  
Old 06-01-15, 03:15 PM
Crusaders Crusaders is offline
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Investments don't work on imagination. You need objective projections.


That's 3.4 million visitors per year. And you believe this?

The HOF remains the attraction. The rest is an outlet mall with a hotel.
I think your imagination here is getting in the way; you imagining nothing but failure for absolutely no reason at all other than simply being illogically pessimistic.

It's a bit more than that, actually. For example, part of the stadium renovation would be making it multi-use, so expect it to be used for outdoor concert events as well. Regardless of whether you personally dislike the project, the improvements will attract more people. Cedar Point numbers? Probably not, but still significantly more people.
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  #46  
Old 06-01-15, 03:19 PM
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AGAIN- If it is such a great investment, let the NFL open their deep pockets and pay for it.

BTW- where is all that infrastructure repair and "shovel-ready jobs" that Obama and the Left spent $800Billion on several years ago. It seems that this should have been done already....
If we make the NFL pay for it, do they then keep all of the money made from it? Does that then give them permission to move it entirely, someplace more lucrative? You can't have your cake and eat it, too. If the city or county or whatever is going to benefit from it, then it is only right that it puts something into it. How much? If the projections are even half what they're talking about, it really doesn't matter.

For starters, this is way off topic. Secondly, I'm not an Obama supporter, yet I feel that I have to call you out on this because it's just completely wrong and I don't think you fully understand what the Recovery and Reinvestment Act entailed. Infrastructure only received a portion of that money, and the amount it did get was a drop in the bucket for what we really need, which is most likely over a trillion dollars. It's the price we pay for building sprawl.
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  #47  
Old 06-01-15, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by LepsLB View Post
AGAIN- If it is such a great investment, let the NFL open their deep pockets and pay for it.

BTW- where is all that infrastructure repair and "shovel-ready jobs" that Obama and the Left spent $800Billion on several years ago. It seems that this should have been done already....
Down the drain...like the 500 million he gave Solyndra.

The NFL had something in the neighborhood of 9 billion in revenue last year...but needed an owner to kick in 10 million toward the stadium...kinda makes you wonder about their commitment.

They seem to be taking a wait and see approach...I think it would be wise for the people of Canton to do the same.
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  #48  
Old 06-01-15, 05:04 PM
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This type of mindset is why nothing ever gets done in NEO Everyone wants someone else to foot the bill, and then when someone does, everyone else cries about not getting their piece. Grow up, people. If you want nice things, you have to pay for it.
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  #49  
Old 06-01-15, 05:29 PM
Oil Filter Oil Filter is offline
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Regardless of whether you personally dislike the project, the improvements will attract more people. Cedar Point numbers? Probably not, but still significantly more people.
So we've established that it will attract somewhere between 200,000 and 3.4 million people.
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  #50  
Old 06-01-15, 05:34 PM
Oil Filter Oil Filter is offline
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Everyone wants someone else to foot the bill, and then when someone does, everyone else cries about not getting their piece.
That's either deliberate distortion or abysmal ignorance. The issue is making sure the return justifies the investment. If the NFL ponies up the whole wad, then they get the profits (this is Free Market 101). However, if the taxpayer is allowed to contribute tens or hundreds of millions, then the revenue stream from the project should be split accordingly. Reward should be commensurate with risk, no? Or are you a fan of socialized investment and privatized profit?
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  #51  
Old 06-01-15, 05:40 PM
Crusaders Crusaders is offline
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Not a distortion at all. Any major project in this area I've ever seen attempted has been shot down because no one feels they should pay anything, but when something successful does pop up, people whine about "those greedy people not paying their share". If you want something nice and you want the public to benefit from it, not just those who helped make it happen, then you pony up or shut up.

Now, you're just arguing for argument's sake.

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  #52  
Old 06-01-15, 06:19 PM
Striker300 Striker300 is offline
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I'm pretty sure both of you are arguing for the sake of argument to the tune of 26 of the 50 posts on the subject before my post. Could both of you possibly put a cork in it? I don't think anyone here much cares how right or wrong either of you is.
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  #53  
Old 06-01-15, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Crusaders View Post
I think your imagination here is getting in the way; you imagining nothing but failure for absolutely no reason at all other than simply being illogically pessimistic.

It's a bit more than that, actually. For example, part of the stadium renovation would be making it multi-use, so expect it to be used for outdoor concert events as well. Regardless of whether you personally dislike the project, the improvements will attract more people. Cedar Point numbers? Probably not, but still significantly more people.
Actually, his reason is that he is from Massillon and just wants to piss on anything Canton.
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  #54  
Old 06-01-15, 07:52 PM
LepsLB LepsLB is offline
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If we make the NFL pay for it, do they then keep all of the money made from it? Does that then give them permission to move it entirely, someplace more lucrative? You can't have your cake and eat it, too. If the city or county or whatever is going to benefit from it, then it is only right that it puts something into it. How much? If the projections are even half what they're talking about, it really doesn't matter.

For starters, this is way off topic. Secondly, I'm not an Obama supporter, yet I feel that I have to call you out on this because it's just completely wrong and I don't think you fully understand what the Recovery and Reinvestment Act entailed. Infrastructure only received a portion of that money, and the amount it did get was a drop in the bucket for what we really need, which is most likely over a trillion dollars. It's the price we pay for building sprawl.
I mention the Recovery and Reinvestment Act sarcastically for dramatic effect. The question remains the same- how much will the NFL benefit from this versus the area? This is not an area with deep pockets and I would still like to see the NFL fund most of this.
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  #55  
Old 06-01-15, 07:58 PM
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I mention the Recovery and Reinvestment Act sarcastically for dramatic effect. The question remains the same- how much will the NFL benefit from this versus the area? This is not an area with deep pockets and I would still like to see the NFL fund most of this.
No, you didn't.

The city will benefit far more from it than the NFL, so why should the NFL foot most of it? This is the mindset I'm talking about. You don't get something for nothing. You don't expect people to build things for you then hand you the keys. If you want something nice, you pay for it.

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  #56  
Old 06-01-15, 08:15 PM
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Latrobe Pa. was actually awarded the Hall of Fame back in the day. They sat around and waited for the NFL to build it. How did that work out for them?
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  #57  
Old 06-01-15, 08:21 PM
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You do realize that the existing structure (save the new press box) will be entirely demolished?
Incorrect info.
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  #58  
Old 06-01-15, 09:24 PM
Mackinbiner Mackinbiner is offline
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In this back-and-forth, I keep trying to weigh who knows more about whether or not this project will go through and succeed.

On one side is the multi-billion dollar marketing monster that is the NFL.

On the other side is Oil Filter.

NFL or Oil Filter?

NFL or Oil Filter?

Hmmmmm?
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  #59  
Old 06-01-15, 10:40 PM
Oil Filter Oil Filter is offline
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The city will benefit far more from it than the NFL, so why should the NFL foot most of it?
You are now advocating that Canton pay $250 million towards this project?

And as to the benefit: the NFL sells a jersey for $125. The NFL gets most of that. The city gets a fraction of the sales tax. Lemme guess: they'll make up for it in volume.

Perhaps an example would help. What is greater: Disney World's annual revenue or Orlando's annual budget?
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  #60  
Old 06-01-15, 10:48 PM
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You are now advocating that Canton pay $250 million towards this project?

And as to the benefit: the NFL sells a jersey for $125. The NFL gets most of that. The city gets a fraction of the sales tax. Lemme guess: they'll make up for it in volume.

Perhaps an example would help. What is greater: Disney World's annual revenue or Orlando's annual budget?
Sure, when the benefits will be in the billions.

I can see that you are simply one of those people who don't actually think, you just say no to everything.

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