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  #121  
Old 10-26-13, 09:57 PM
bb9 bb9 is offline
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I've called it and seen it called a few times. Don't see it a ton on Friday nights but it happens and should be called for all the reasons you mentioned.
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  #122  
Old 10-26-13, 10:04 PM
bb9 bb9 is offline
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I have a question:

There was something that came out in the preseason regarding ball boys and where they were supposed to be and not be. What was that and where can I find it? I think there has been some confusion and inconsistency in this part of the state in terms of working with the ball boys.
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  #123  
Old 10-27-13, 05:00 AM
tom_hsfootball_fan tom_hsfootball_fan is offline
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The last NFHS book I have is 2010, so I'm not sure if the wording is different now... but I have a question on Rule 7-5-10 regarding Pass Interference. In the penalty enforcement explanation, the book reads

"If the pass interference by either player is intentional, his team shall be penalized an additional 15 yards (S27)."

I have seen numerous cases over the years where this would have been an appropriate call (and perhaps would have affected the outcome), but I have never once seen it used in 40 years. Why?

--- --- ---

Ref, could you please give the procedure on clock stoppage/restarting in the following scenarios (Team A with ball: Team A leading/Team B leading)?

Team A called for delay.
Team A called for false start or other.
Team B called for encroachment or other.

I've been having difficulty trying to explain when the clock would be restarted at ready rather than waiting for the snap. Thanks!
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  #124  
Old 10-27-13, 09:16 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bb9 View Post
I have a question:

There was something that came out in the preseason regarding ball boys and where they were supposed to be and not be. What was that and where can I find it? I think there has been some confusion and inconsistency in this part of the state in terms of working with the ball boys.
Gold Book, Ball Handling Mechanics (Section 1, M&N)
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  #125  
Old 10-27-13, 09:41 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom_hsfootball_fan View Post
The last NFHS book I have is 2010, so I'm not sure if the wording is different now... but I have a question on Rule 7-5-10 regarding Pass Interference. In the penalty enforcement explanation, the book reads

"If the pass interference by either player is intentional, his team shall be penalized an additional 15 yards (S27)."

I have seen numerous cases over the years where this would have been an appropriate call (and perhaps would have affected the outcome), but I have never once seen it used in 40 years. Why?

--- --- ---

Ref, could you please give the procedure on clock stoppage/restarting in the following scenarios (Team A with ball: Team A leading/Team B leading)?

Team A called for delay.
Team A called for false start or other.
Team B called for encroachment or other.

I've been having difficulty trying to explain when the clock would be restarted at ready rather than waiting for the snap. Thanks!
The intentional interference call comes up occasionally in clinics and camps (primarily from newer officials). The guidance we give/get is that IPA should only be called on those plays where the interference is so egregious that it cannot be ignored. It's a pure judgment call and is extremely rare. In 30+ years, I've personally never witnessed interference that reaches the "egregious" threshold.

For those who ask "what constitutes egregious?"....... The official knows it when he sees it.

With regards to the clock status on your series of penalties........

When a penalty for delay of game is accepted, the clock is started at the snap (Rule 3-4-3i). The clock will start at the snap for all subsequent snaps until the down is complete.
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  #126  
Old 10-27-13, 10:04 AM
basselope basselope is offline
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What is the rule on roughing the punter on a Rugby style punt?

I have seen a couple of times where the punter was roughed and no call was made & then I saw play on a TV game this WE where roughing was called...

Thanks
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  #127  
Old 10-27-13, 10:13 AM
COLTCOUNTRY COLTCOUNTRY is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by COLTCOUNTRY View Post
What about face masking by the ball carrier? Does it ever get called? I have seen some pretty serious face masking done by the ball carrier usually during a stiff arm. I understand the face mask rule cause someone could get hurt etc. I have seen some defensive players get their head almost twisted off by the ball carrier.
Can someone address this question please.
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  #128  
Old 10-27-13, 10:29 AM
tom_hsfootball_fan tom_hsfootball_fan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
When a penalty for delay of game is accepted, the clock is started at the snap (Rule 3-4-3i). The clock will start at the snap for all subsequent snaps until the down is complete.
I didn't mean for that to be seen a series of plays. I mean, in those individual scenarios. Does the clock always start at the snap? Different penalties are handled different ways, aren't they?
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  #129  
Old 10-27-13, 10:31 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basselope View Post
What is the rule on roughing the punter on a Rugby style punt?

I have seen a couple of times where the punter was roughed and no call was made & then I saw play on a TV game this WE where roughing was called...

Thanks
The rule states that it is not roughing if the Referee judges that the contact is unavoidable because it is not reasonably certain that a kick will be made.

Pure judgment of the Referee. Whether or not it's a rugby style or traditional kick attempt is irrelevant.
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  #130  
Old 10-27-13, 10:36 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by COLTCOUNTRY View Post
Can someone address this question please.
Placing a hand on the face mask is legal. (typical stiff arm) Grasping the mask is not.

Again.....judgment by the covering official.
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  #131  
Old 10-27-13, 12:49 PM
basselope basselope is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
The rule states that it is not roughing if the Referee judges that the contact is unavoidable because it is not reasonably certain that a kick will be made.

Pure judgment of the Referee. Whether or not it's a rugby style or traditional kick attempt is irrelevant.
Thank you.
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  #132  
Old 10-27-13, 01:43 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom_hsfootball_fan View Post
I didn't mean for that to be seen a series of plays. I mean, in those individual scenarios. Does the clock always start at the snap? Different penalties are handled different ways, aren't they?

Sorry for the confusion.

If either team accepts a penalty for a delay of game, then the clock will always start at the snap. (Rule 3-4-3i)

For any other foul, the status of the clock after the penalty enforcement will be the same as it was prior to the enforcement, except when the Referee rules that the foul or other action was due to an attempt to illegally conserve or consume time.


A good way to look at it.....

If the clock was running, it starts at the ready. (except on DOG)
If the clock was stopped, it starts at the snap.
Referee's discretion
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  #133  
Old 10-27-13, 05:08 PM
tom_hsfootball_fan tom_hsfootball_fan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
A good way to look at it.....

If the clock was running, it starts at the ready. (except on DOG)
If the clock was stopped, it starts at the snap.
Referee's discretion
Thanks! On the referee's discretion piece here... would the referee consider the type of penalty, which team is ahead... what is the criteria?
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  #134  
Old 10-27-13, 05:47 PM
quadbravo quadbravo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by COLTCOUNTRY View Post
What about face masking by the ball carrier? Does it ever get called? I have seen some pretty serious face masking done by the ball carrier usually during a stiff arm. I understand the face mask rule cause someone could get hurt etc. I have seen some defensive players get their head almost twisted off by the ball carrier.
The ball carrier is free to push an opponent's face mask while running the ball. This routinely happens during a stiff-arm especially if the carrier has reasonably long arms. Refs do not call that as a face mask penalty. And. yes, it can push a tacklers face away in an awkward way.
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  #135  
Old 10-27-13, 07:24 PM
88streaks 88streaks is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 88streaks View Post
What kind of rules does HS football have about Helmet to Helmet contact? At the Lake/Fitch game last night, Fitch's QB rolled out left & crossed the line of scrimmage. Lake's OLB came up from coverage and tackled him high(facemask to facemask). Lake received a 15 yd penalty and the ref's signal was "knocking on the head" motion.
Hoping SW OH official can take a look at this one!?
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  #136  
Old 10-27-13, 08:04 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 88streaks View Post
What kind of rules does HS football have about Helmet to Helmet contact? At the Lake/Fitch game last night, Fitch's QB rolled out left & crossed the line of scrimmage. Lake's OLB came up from coverage and tackled him high(facemask to facemask). Lake received a 15 yd penalty and the ref's signal was "knocking on the head" motion.

Not sure what you are looking for here.

The R's signal indicated the foul was for illegal helmet contact. If the play happened as you indicate, the judgment of the official was correct.
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  #137  
Old 10-27-13, 08:07 PM
bb9 bb9 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom_hsfootball_fan View Post
Thanks! On the referee's discretion piece here... would the referee consider the type of penalty, which team is ahead... what is the criteria?
Yeah, you have to look at it from an advantage/disadvantage standpoint. Will starting the clock help the team who committed the penalty? If the answer is yes, don't start the clock.
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  #138  
Old 10-27-13, 08:09 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom_hsfootball_fan View Post
Thanks! On the referee's discretion piece here... would the referee consider the type of penalty, which team is ahead... what is the criteria?
The type of foul is generally no issue.

The typical scenario is going to be Team A is ahead late in the game and Team B is out of time outs. Clock is running and Team A false starts......

Normally the clock would start on the ready for play after the penalty is enforced, but in this situation, the R will start it on the snap so Team A does not get the benefit of the clock running further without running a play.

bb9 explains it well above........
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  #139  
Old 10-28-13, 02:38 PM
#letsgetit #letsgetit is offline
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If a team is punting, the snap is low and hits the ground punter grabs ball and punts..but is hit. There can't not be roughing penalty,correct?? I've seen this happen twice this year, and penalty was called on both!!?? I thought once the ball touched ground, the punter is considered"live"????
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  #140  
Old 10-28-13, 02:51 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by #letsgetit View Post
If a team is punting, the snap is low and hits the ground punter grabs ball and punts..but is hit. There can't not be roughing penalty,correct?? I've seen this happen twice this year, and penalty was called on both!!?? I thought once the ball touched ground, the punter is considered"live"????
The ball hitting the ground isn't factored into a roughing the kicker foul.

The rule states that it is not roughing if the Referee judges that the contact is unavoidable because it is not reasonably certain that a kick will be made.

In addition, if the ball is blocked, that does not mean that all contact with the kicker is ignored. If the contact is judged avoidable, then a roughing foul (or running into) is warranted.
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  #141  
Old 10-28-13, 09:22 PM
bb9 bb9 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
Gold Book, Ball Handling Mechanics (Section 1, M&N)
Thank you! Found it right after I posted. A lot of people must be forgetting the first part because I have had several ball boys tell me they were not allowed under the goal posts and had to stay on the sideline after a touchdown. #BJproblems
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  #142  
Old 10-29-13, 09:23 PM
88streaks 88streaks is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
Not sure what you are looking for here.

The R's signal indicated the foul was for illegal helmet contact. If the play happened as you indicate, the judgment of the official was correct.
I guess I'm looking for what defines "illegal helmet contact"?
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  #143  
Old 10-29-13, 09:48 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 88streaks View Post
I guess I'm looking for what defines "illegal helmet contact"?

Illegal Helmet Contact is an act of initiating contact with the helmet against an opponent. It includes.....

Butt Blocking - an act by any player who initiates contact who is not a runner with the front of his helmet.

Face Tackling -- an act by a defensive player who initiates contact with a runner with the front of his helmet.

Spearing -- an act by any player who initiates contact against any opponent with the top of his helmet.


Your play would fall under face tackling as described. The rules committees on all levels (NFL, NCAA, NFHS) are trying to get the game focused lower in the torso instead of up high near the head.
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  #144  
Old 10-30-13, 10:23 AM
bb9 bb9 is offline
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I watched a video produced by the NCAA where it made the following point:

Any hit that is high on a defenseless player or any hit that is made with the crown of the helmet is a penalty. Either of them, not both, constitutes a penalty.

Here is the NFL explanation of defenseless players:

(a) Players in a defenseless posture are:

(1) A player in the act of or just after throwing a pass;

(2) A receiver attempting to catch a pass; or who has completed a catch and has not had time to protect himself or has not clearly become a runner. If the receiver/runner is capable of avoiding or warding off the impending contact of an opponent, he is no longer a defenseless player;

(3) A runner already in the grasp of a tackler and whose forward progress has been stopped;

(4) A kickoff or punt returner attempting to field a kick in the air;

(5) A player on the ground at the end of a play;

(6) A kicker/punter during the kick or during the return;

(7) A quarterback at any time after a change of possession, and

(8) A player who receives a “blindside” block when the blocker is moving toward his own endline and approaches the opponent from behind or from the side.

(b) Prohibited contact against a player who is in a defenseless posture is:

(1) Forcibly hitting the defenseless player’s head or neck area with the helmet, facemask, forearm, or shoulder, regardless of whether the defensive player also uses his arms to tackle the defenseless player by encircling or grasping him; and

(2) Lowering the head and making forcible contact with the top/crown or forehead/”hairline” parts of the helmet against any part of the defenseless player’s body.


While this is different wording from the NFHS rules, it is very similar to what they really want officials to focus on. We are also supposed to error on the side of it being illegal if there is a high hit.

NFHS mentions a hit on a player in a "defenseless position" but does not define the term. That's why I included the NCAA and NFL terminology. I bet we see a definition of defenselss in the NFHS book next year.
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  #145  
Old 10-30-13, 03:50 PM
Findy15 Findy15 is offline
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It's the 4th quarter and there is 1:57 left on the clock, the clock is running, defense is down by 2 points. The offense has a man go in motion and moves forward before the snap, a penalty is called for illegal motion with 1:37 left in the game. Question does the clock wind after the penalty is marked off allowing 25 more seconds to run off of the clock, or is the ball set in play with the clock starting on the snap of the ball by the offense? I've seen it done both ways what is the correct ruling?? Sorry to re-ask this question but I saw this done by a team who went in motion 2 times in a row burning 70 seconds off of the clock and never snapping the ball killing all of the defensive teams time outs, it was still first down when the offense ran a play, there was 33 seconds left in the game. This rule needs to be looked at as a smart coach can use this to his advantage.
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  #146  
Old 10-30-13, 04:13 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Findy15 View Post
It's the 4th quarter and there is 1:57 left on the clock, the clock is running, defense is down by 2 points. The offense has a man go in motion and moves forward before the snap, a penalty is called for illegal motion with 1:37 left in the game. Question does the clock wind after the penalty is marked off allowing 25 more seconds to run off of the clock, or is the ball set in play with the clock starting on the snap of the ball by the offense? I've seen it done both ways what is the correct ruling?? Sorry to re-ask this question but I saw this done by a team who went in motion 2 times in a row burning 70 seconds off of the clock and never snapping the ball killing all of the defensive teams time outs, it was still first down when the offense ran a play, there was 33 seconds left in the game. This rule needs to be looked at as a smart coach can use this to his advantage.
No need for the rules committee to revisit this situation as the Rule Book and Case Book specifically address this act as an illegal attempt to consume time.

As long as the defense had no time outs remaining, the Referee should have started the clock on the snap after the first motion penalty.
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  #147  
Old 10-30-13, 07:12 PM
Findy15 Findy15 is offline
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Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
No need for the rules committee to revisit this situation as the Rule Book and Case Book specifically address this act as an illegal attempt to consume time.

As long as the defense had no time outs remaining, the Referee should have started the clock on the snap after the first motion penalty.
The defense had 2 time outs left when the first penalty was called, the 5 yard penalty was marked off, the ball was marked for play, the referee started the clock before the snap. The referee said that if he thought that the penalty's were intentional he would penalize the offense for unsportsmanlike conduct but, after the ball was marked for play the ref would wind the clock. Seems like the best way for the offense to burn the clock and not have to punt.
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  #148  
Old 11-01-13, 09:48 AM
EyesWithPride EyesWithPride is offline
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I have a question regarding delay of game on a free kick after a safety. Whitmer HS was called for this two times before they were allowed to kick on the third try. I'm guessing it had no relation to the clock? What can cause that penalty to be called on a free kick?
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  #149  
Old 11-01-13, 12:13 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by EyesWithPride View Post
I have a question regarding delay of game on a free kick after a safety. Whitmer HS was called for this two times before they were allowed to kick on the third try. I'm guessing it had no relation to the clock? What can cause that penalty to be called on a free kick?
It's rare enough to hear about a delay of game on a free kick much less see one....... but two of them consecutively?

I can't speculate what happened in the game you talk about, but the ball is put ready for play by the Referee on a free kick after a safety just as he would on any other free kick. He checks that there are 11 players on each team where they belong, checks that his crew members are ready and in position, blows his whistle making the ball ready for play and starting the 25 second play clock. If they fail to kick the ball before the play clock expires, it is a foul.

Also, if for some reason, one team fails to make themselves ready to play after being asked to be ready, they are guilty of a DOG foul.
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  #150  
Old 11-02-13, 12:05 AM
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Personal foul

Question concerning personal foul.
Play ends offensive player commits personal foul late hit after the whistle on this play. offense is awarded the first down before the penalty is to be assesed.
a) is that the correct call?
b) if it is the correct call do the down markers remain at the spot of the first down or are they moved back to the spot of the ball placement after the penalty is enforced?
In the game in question the penalty was assesed after the team was awarded the first down but then the down markers as well as the ball were moved back to the spot of the ball after the penalty was marked off.
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