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  #31  
Old 05-16-18, 03:16 PM
coachg coachg is offline
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Originally Posted by whachutalkinbout View Post
First, let me say there are good qualified coaches at both the rec level and club level and there are some poor/unqualified coaches at both the rec level and club level.

Second, I grew up playing soccer (Gen X'er) and we were really the first US generation to grow up playing soccer at some level or another. None of the parents played soccer unless they came from South America or Europe (which was rare). Now Gen X'ers are the one with these kids and I would say a great deal of these parents did indeed play soccer growing up.

Lastly, there are tons of parent coaches coaching club soccer. There are probably more parent coaches than there are straight professional coaches in the greater Cincinnati area. Some again are good and others not so much.

What has happened in the last 10-15 years is that we have all of these soccer clubs that charge way more than rec or SAY but the bottom third teams for all of these clubs are usually no better than rec teams from 10-15 years ago. These parents are paying club prices for rec soccer.

It is not select when pretty much everyone makes a team with the club. Name a big named area club and I guarantee they will form a team for pretty much any skill level if enough are willing to pay for it. I see it all the time. Some dad has a decent rec team and decides "its time to move to X club" for better bla bla this and bla bla that. Same kids, same coach, new league, double or triple the cost and certainly more travel. Cooler uniforms though.
I agree with 99% of what you are saying but no one puts a gun to a parent / players head to move to a club instead of staying in Rec. Sometimes its because Rec has a rule that teams cant stay together and parents woudl prefer keeping a team together, or a they prefer their kid having the same coach instead of a new one each season. There are many reasons parent / players decide to move to club or to stay with rec and neither option is wrong. Its up to the parents / players to decide what is right for them. If you read the mission statement of most clubs many read like these:

- "To create an elite training and competition environment for boys and girls that strives to reach the highest level of success through first achieving excellence: providing a life enriching experience in an academy atmosphere that seeks to develop the complete player on and off the field of competition."

- XYZ Club seeks to provide children, teenagers, and young adults of Lakota, Lebanon, Mason, Sycamore, and all of the other neighboring communities throughout the Greater Cincinnati and southern Dayton areas a full range of opportunities to enjoy and develop in soccer, at levels appropriate for their age, ability and interest. It is recognized that different children play the game for different reasons and that Cincinnati United must therefore provide a variety of programs which serve the needs and interests of all children in the community.

- ABC Club- is a non-profit, competitive soccer organization in the greater Cincinnati area that develops players at all levels to reach their full potential in a challenging, safe environment. The quality and philosophy of our club builds character on and off the field through relationship-building and camaraderie.


Where in either statement does it say only the Elite player or top level player only? As my buddy Rohbino has taught me there is for all levels of play in select soccer and parents / players have a choice to play club or rec and what is wrong with that?
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  #32  
Old 05-17-18, 06:12 AM
whachutalkinbout whachutalkinbout is offline
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Originally Posted by coachg View Post
I agree with 99% of what you are saying but no one puts a gun to a parent / players head to move to a club instead of staying in Rec. Sometimes its because Rec has a rule that teams cant stay together and parents woudl prefer keeping a team together, or a they prefer their kid having the same coach instead of a new one each season. There are many reasons parent / players decide to move to club or to stay with rec and neither option is wrong. Its up to the parents / players to decide what is right for them. If you read the mission statement of most clubs many read like these:

- "To create an elite training and competition environment for boys and girls that strives to reach the highest level of success through first achieving excellence: providing a life enriching experience in an academy atmosphere that seeks to develop the complete player on and off the field of competition."

- XYZ Club seeks to provide children, teenagers, and young adults of Lakota, Lebanon, Mason, Sycamore, and all of the other neighboring communities throughout the Greater Cincinnati and southern Dayton areas a full range of opportunities to enjoy and develop in soccer, at levels appropriate for their age, ability and interest. It is recognized that different children play the game for different reasons and that Cincinnati United must therefore provide a variety of programs which serve the needs and interests of all children in the community.

- ABC Club- is a non-profit, competitive soccer organization in the greater Cincinnati area that develops players at all levels to reach their full potential in a challenging, safe environment. The quality and philosophy of our club builds character on and off the field through relationship-building and camaraderie.


Where in either statement does it say only the Elite player or top level player only? As my buddy Rohbino has taught me there is for all levels of play in select soccer and parents / players have a choice to play club or rec and what is wrong with that?
I agree with you that no one is being forced and I also don't think there is anything wrong with kids/parents picking club if that's what they want to do. As I said in a previous post, I have my two oldest playing club. I'm certainly not anti-club soccer.

What I don't care for is the trend (that is not going away) of rec soccer being called "select" or "club" soccer when it is nothing more than glorified rec for a higher cost and more travel. Parents and kids get all caught up in name recognition a lot of times. The best player they know is on the top, top team for Club XYZ, so they want their Mia to play for Club XYZ but Mia is not good enough for make the top 4 teams for her age group but Club XYZ still fields a team for her level and gladly takes your money. This 5th team is basically rec with a club cost. No one is forcing kids and parents to pick this option like you said but because it is an option and people continue to pick it over traditional rec, rec is becoming less and less of an option. Pretty soon those not really interested in club will have no choice but to play club at certain ages or quit playing the sport.
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  #33  
Old 05-17-18, 07:10 AM
mollautt mollautt is offline
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=>Bottom tiers of club soccer are "rec soccer" talent wise. That said, club soccer is generally going to have better coaching than rec.

What makes up the top teams at young ages are physical ability. The bigger, faster kids are going to make the A teams.

But then comes along puberty. Some C, D, and E team players suddenly have growth spurts and become top team level talent. But if their parents decided early on not to put in club soccer and learn foot skills because their child was not a top athlete at 8 or 9 years old, then that kid is behind when the great equalizer known as puberty happens.

These physical changes happen even as late as high school. Michael Jordan did not make his varsity H.S. team until his junior year. Ben Rothlisberger was not the starting QB at Findley H.S. until a senior (there was an issue of nepotism as the coach's son was starter his junior year so Ben played WR).

https://www.forbes.com/sites/bobcook...re-pro-career/
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  #34  
Old 05-17-18, 07:21 AM
whachutalkinbout whachutalkinbout is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mollautt View Post
=>Bottom tiers of club soccer are "rec soccer" talent wise. That said, club soccer is generally going to have better coaching than rec.
It has been my experience that these bottom tier club teams with "rec soccer" talent are coached by the same parent coach that coached them in rec. Nothing changed except higher costs, more travel and cooler uniforms.
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  #35  
Old 05-17-18, 08:02 AM
Hoosier Parent Hoosier Parent is offline
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They are playing better competition, which in and of itself is a benefit. I'd argue teaching/applying technical skills is one thing, applying them against better competition/pressure is another. I don't know it's a bad thing for some rec teams/families to be ambitious enough to want to play in bigger leagues.
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  #36  
Old 05-17-18, 08:30 AM
whachutalkinbout whachutalkinbout is offline
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Originally Posted by Hoosier Parent View Post
They are playing better competition, which in and of itself is a benefit.
Are they? Not in my experience. They are playing against other club's "glorified rec teams" that also "moved up" or a similar like team in a lot of cases.

Club XYZ's glorified rec team plays Club ABC's glorified rec team instead of both playing rec. Instead of playing another rec team 3 miles away, they now playing a glorified rec team 25 miles away.
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  #37  
Old 05-17-18, 09:06 AM
Hoosier Parent Hoosier Parent is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whachutalkinbout View Post
Are they? Not in my experience. They are playing against other club's "glorified rec teams" that also "moved up" or a similar like team in a lot of cases.

Club XYZ's glorified rec team plays Club ABC's glorified rec team instead of both playing rec. Instead of playing another rec team 3 miles away, they now playing a glorified rec team 25 miles away.
Fair enough. I can't fault parents for trying to find a better developmental situation for their kids, and I can't really fault clubs for trying to develop a model that keeps kids in their system, allowing them to ID them (And sure, draw additional revenue from them). I think it's up to parents to be vigilant, which is tough because it really depends who is feeding them what information.

From personal experience, at U10, my little Mia played at a tiny rec club, that had to combine age groups to put a team together. Her cousin played 3rd team for a mid-level Indy Club (Think Beechmont or Dayton Metro).

Myself and the other dad coach wanted to play travel (What we call it in Indiana) but realized that we were in over our heads and made contact with a local D3 coach who took a benevolent interest in our girls and trained them. The other dad and myself just tried to copy her stuff and stay out of the way.

My sister in law was sure that we weren't playing the leagues and tournaments that her kid's club was. While we worked our way to the top division of what became the state league (Probably equivalent of Buckeye Premier's State division at the time) by U12, they didn't really grow.

I know this gets off topic of rec, but I feel it describes how parents generally are looking for a good developmental model, but aren't always informed.
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  #38  
Old 05-17-18, 09:23 AM
whachutalkinbout whachutalkinbout is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoosier Parent View Post
Fair enough. I can't fault parents for trying to find a better developmental situation for their kids, and I can't really fault clubs for trying to develop a model that keeps kids in their system, allowing them to ID them (And sure, draw additional revenue from them). I think it's up to parents to be vigilant, which is tough because it really depends who is feeding them what information.
Its the American way. If you can find a way to make a buck, make a buck. Its obviously not going to go away as evidenced by all the new clubs that keep popping up just in greater Cincinnati alone.

This is not unique to soccer. My third oldest takes dance and they have recently created a "competitive or show dance team" at the place where she takes. Of course, these "select" individuals have to "tryout" for these teams, pay higher fees, practice multiple times per week and "compete" against other "elite" dance companies.

Parents will always want their kids to be elite or a cut above their neighbor's kid and will pay through the nose to try to accomplish this feat.
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  #39  
Old 06-04-18, 09:18 PM
soccerfan63 soccerfan63 is offline
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Originally Posted by coachg View Post
Just curious why new clubs start up? What is not being done by the clubs in the area already that a new club needs to start? Is it adult ego, money grab or what?

http://www.masonfc.com/
I see a couple of reasons:

1. To get away from parent coaches who are not trained or in many cases have never played the game. It is a crap shoot in many rec leagues if you get one of these coaches. Sometimes a parent has played, but does not have the coaching/teaching skills. A year or two of a bad coach can really put a kid behind.

2. To get away from the 3 or 4 girls on every rec team who are only there because mom and dad needed a babysitter. They do not want to play, don't pay attention at practice, miss practice, and want to start every game. This is frustrating for the young player who wants to take the game a little more seriously.

3. While paying more is a slight burdon, it does put some skin in the game for parents to take things more seriously. See number 2.

4. To practice locally 5 or 10 minutes away instead of driving 30-40 minutes two or three times a week.

5. I do not think these new teams are money grabs. I think they are just providing a different option for kids who want something more than SAY but are not CUP material.
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  #40  
Old 06-05-18, 09:14 AM
whachutalkinbout whachutalkinbout is offline
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Originally Posted by soccerfan63 View Post
I see a couple of reasons:

1. To get away from parent coaches who are not trained or in many cases have never played the game. It is a crap shoot in many rec leagues if you get one of these coaches. Sometimes a parent has played, but does not have the coaching/teaching skills. A year or two of a bad coach can really put a kid behind.

2. To get away from the 3 or 4 girls on every rec team who are only there because mom and dad needed a babysitter. They do not want to play, don't pay attention at practice, miss practice, and want to start every game. This is frustrating for the young player who wants to take the game a little more seriously.

3. While paying more is a slight burdon, it does put some skin in the game for parents to take things more seriously. See number 2.

4. To practice locally 5 or 10 minutes away instead of driving 30-40 minutes two or three times a week.

5. I do not think these new teams are money grabs. I think they are just providing a different option for kids who want something more than SAY but are not CUP material.
63,

So this new club is filling a need for kids that are "better than rec" but not quite ready for the rigors of other local select/club teams?

1.) This new club won't have parent coaches? Its a crap shoot on coaches at any level. Just ask the USMNT.

2.) These kids play select/club as well. Since many clubs will gladly form multiple teams per age group if enough paying parents are willing to pay, the bottom teams are chalk full of kids like this through U14.

3.) Not really. Plenty of rich parents use lower level club as babysitters because little Mia wants the expensive jersey, etc.

4.) I don't know where you live but with 8,000 clubs or however many someone listed above, you have to live pretty far from the general city core to have to drive 30 to 40 minutes for practices.

5.) They most certainly are money grabs. People don't start entire clubs out of the love for the game. They might form a single team for that purpose but clubs are formed because someone thinks: "I can make a better mouse trap and I might as well make a buck while I'm at it."
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  #41  
Old 06-06-18, 10:17 PM
soccerfan63 soccerfan63 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whachutalkinbout View Post
63,

So this new club is filling a need for kids that are "better than rec" but not quite ready for the rigors of other local select/club teams?

1.) This new club won't have parent coaches? Its a crap shoot on coaches at any level. Just ask the USMNT.

2.) These kids play select/club as well. Since many clubs will gladly form multiple teams per age group if enough paying parents are willing to pay, the bottom teams are chalk full of kids like this through U14.

3.) Not really. Plenty of rich parents use lower level club as babysitters because little Mia wants the expensive jersey, etc.

4.) I don't know where you live but with 8,000 clubs or however many someone listed above, you have to live pretty far from the general city core to have to drive 30 to 40 minutes for practices.

5.) They most certainly are money grabs. People don't start entire clubs out of the love for the game. They might form a single team for that purpose but clubs are formed because someone thinks: "I can make a better mouse trap and I might as well make a buck while I'm at it."

1. There are parent coaches who do the training in rec and have no knowledge of the game[ never played it, don't watch it, and have no clue. I am talking about the football dad who teaches his defenders that they cannot cross the 18 and park defenders in front of the goal. In most select clubs, even the small ones, the parent coaches are either somewhat knowledgeable of the game or do not train the team on a regular basis, the training is done by a paid trainer.

2. I am talking about the kid who does not want to be there and has no athletic ability. There is a big difference between these kids in SAY and the kids who play select who just aren't that good.

4. I am talking about the top 5 or 6 clubs, not the small local clubs. If you look at CU, KH, WC, TFA, Alliance, etc. there are many, many parents who have to drive 30 minutes or more to practice. Hence, they go to Impact, Butler United, Sycamore Premier, Mason FC, or other small clubs that practice locally in their community. This is a HUGE draw for these clubs over the big boys, along with the cost.

5. I think you are flat out wrong here. While there are many in the area looking to make a buck out of youth soccer, they tend to be at the big clubs and not at the small, local clubs. Most local clubs start with one or two teams because of dissatisfaction with a large club (my kid got cut from the Top team, my kid is just a number, I can do it better, I don't want to travel, I don't want to pay big bucks, lets keep our rec team together, etc.) but it is not some grand scheme to make a buck. It is simply too much work and hassle for it to be worthwhile. It takes years to establish a club before it makes any real money, (I am not considering CSC or AR's new club in this category. I am referring to the clubs I mentioned above.)
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  #42  
Old 06-07-18, 07:24 AM
whachutalkinbout whachutalkinbout is offline
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1. So maybe the parent coaches like you describe are worse than the parent coaches at lower level club but being slightly better than the worst coaches around is still not a great option. Like I said, its a crap shoot. Maybe this newly formed club will have a parent coach that is much better than the worst soccer coach of all time and maybe not.

2.There are plenty of kids like you just described playing lower level club. I don't understand why but people often spend their money foolishly.

4. So, again there are ALREADY other clubs in the area that have been founded for this purpose. How is this brand new club any different from the clubs close to your house that are not the top 5 or 6 clubs?

5. I'm not wrong. Are you going to pay more or less for this new club than you would for SAY soccer? Pretty much everything boils down to money. What you are describing is SAY soccer with a higher fee and simply excluding the worst of the worst players and coaches. Again, I would say you are correct if this was just one or two teams looking to form a competitive team and not travel, etc. and that can all be done through affiliate teams at the bigger clubs. Going the next step and forming an entirely new club in a market that has tons of clubs already is someone's attempt to eventually make money off of it.
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