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  #31  
Old 04-26-18, 11:40 AM
Zezzo! Zezzo! is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CometCountry View Post
Because the kids knew as well and benefitted already by playing a game against Fenwick that they should have not played in--and what good is the penalty of Dunbar the school not playing in the tourney, if the players who would have to sit out, are at other schools playing in the tourney--penalty would simply be in name only--sometimes penalties have HARD consequences that hurt--that's life!
So let me understand this clearly, any player in the Dunbar program that wasn't involved should not be allowed to transfer? Should they have took matters amongst themselves not to play until matters are resolved? Or you must be speaking on the players involved? Or you must not have ever been a child?
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  #32  
Old 04-26-18, 11:53 AM
brianwr112 brianwr112 is offline
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Vike16

I'm willing to bet every single player on those teams knew who was/wasn't in the fight by the next day at latest. Any single one of them could have stepped up and told the truth but they didn't as far as we know. If they did, there's even more problems with DPS. The "kids" deserve to be punished as well.
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  #33  
Old 04-26-18, 12:09 PM
Zezzo! Zezzo! is offline
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You've never been a child either!
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  #34  
Old 04-26-18, 12:30 PM
CometCountry CometCountry is offline
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Originally Posted by Zezzo! View Post
So let me understand this clearly, any player in the Dunbar program that wasn't involved should not be allowed to transfer? Should they have took matters amongst themselves not to play until matters are resolved? Or you must be speaking on the players involved? Or you must not have ever been a child?
I was a HS bball coach for 27 years, have two kids currently an HC and varsity assistant, retired 35 years guidance counselor--and absolutely was a 3-sport playing kid. The OHSAA punishment holds no water if only the school Dunbar can't play in the tournament, but the kids who played the 2 extra games, after the "see no evil--hear no evil" perjury, can transfer with open enrollment and play in the 2019 tourney like everything is just fine. Certainly the adults can be punished by suspensions and losing jobs but sometimes punishment has to be hard for ALL involved--adults and kids. Not saying the kids can't transfer and play the season at a new school, but they do need to sit out the 2019 tourney just like the SCHOOL Dunbar (and the kids who remain there will have to do) to serve their punishment--or the punishment is toothless!!
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  #35  
Old 04-26-18, 12:42 PM
SouthwestOhioGuy17 SouthwestOhioGuy17 is offline
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Fenwick AD on Dunbar announcement: 'Everyone knows that we got the bad end of the stick'

https://www.journal-news.com/sports/...e409a8UVCMnKM/
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  #36  
Old 04-26-18, 01:58 PM
Vike16 Vike16 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CometCountry View Post
I was a HS bball coach for 27 years, have two kids currently an HC and varsity assistant, retired 35 years guidance counselor--and absolutely was a 3-sport playing kid. The OHSAA punishment holds no water if only the school Dunbar can't play in the tournament, but the kids who played the 2 extra games, after the "see no evil--hear no evil" perjury, can transfer with open enrollment and play in the 2019 tourney like everything is just fine. Certainly the adults can be punished by suspensions and losing jobs but sometimes punishment has to be hard for ALL involved--adults and kids. Not saying the kids can't transfer and play the season at a new school, but they do need to sit out the 2019 tourney just like the SCHOOL Dunbar (and the kids who remain there will have to do) to serve their punishment--or the punishment is toothless!!
Comet I still have to disagree with you. The adults involved are getting paid and had a obligation to tell the truth. I'm ok with the kids that were in the fight to be punished, and I'm pretty sure the other kids knew who fought. But they are not getting paid and were not under oath, and have no obligation to spill the beans. This is fully a Dunbar and DPS administrative issue. To be honest I feel sorry for all the kids from all the schools involved
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  #37  
Old 04-26-18, 02:05 PM
Look Ma No Hands Look Ma No Hands is offline
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I'm still on the superintendent's place in this:

https://www.mydaytondailynews.com/ne...Sc66mUymHdArN/
Quote:
Lolli quickly fired back. “Dayton Public Schools is not going to roll over and play dead because they threatened to throw us out of the OHSAA,” she said. “There are courts that will support DPS because we did nothing wrong at the varsity level. Punish me at the JV level if you’re going to punish me.”

Stried also pointed to the court testimony of Dunbar athletic director Quiona Boffman, who said it was Lolli’s decision not to suspend those JV players who left the bench during the Jan. 10 fight. Stried called that “unbelievable,” making reference to “a lack of administrative responsibility from the highest levels of Dayton Public Schools.”

Lolli on Wednesday ripped the OHSAA for making statements like that without doing research. She said Boffman was wrong in her testimony, adding that she only played a role in setting punishments for players who threw punches in the fight.

“If the OHSAA believes that to be true, and they didn’t call me to verify one way or another, that’s their fault,” Lolli said. “And the adults who did not follow through with what they were supposed to do have been punished. Did the OHSAA ask me that? Did they ask me what stance I took? No, they did not. They just accused me of not taking responsibility for it. That’s inappropriate. They are picking at DPS.

On Wednesday, an OHSAA official said extreme penalties are still possible for the overall Dunbar High School athletic program, and acting DPS Superintendent Elizabeth Lolli ripped OHSAA for being “out to get” DPS.

“(OHSAA) has never called me to ask me what I did about the adults who failed to do anything about the students who left the bench,” Lolli said. “You have, but OHSAA never asked me.”
https://www.mydaytondailynews.com/ne...MbUfsWZ0RvqNM/

Quote:
We’re very happy for the students at Dunbar High School, that they’re going to be able to be able to play in the tournament game. We feel that the students deserve that opportunity, and we’re happy with the judgment,” said acting DPS Superintendent Elizabeth Lolli. “We want to make sure we send a strong message about accountability and responsibility. We expect that our administrators and our ADs at all levels follow the rules and know the rules, and make sure that we enforce the rules because we only hurt our student athletes if we do not.”
Ms Superintendent needed to do her research before lambasting the OHSAA.



And what about the judge who undermined the OHSAA by believing folks that are now shown to be liars. Will he apologize for overstepping his bounds. Will he apologize for believing partial evidence? Will apologize to the two schools that were victimized by his faulty decision?

https://www.mydaytondailynews.com/ne...MbUfsWZ0RvqNM/
Quote:
Judge gives reasoning
Krumholtz ruled that the OHSAA had, in fact, made a mistake. He wrote that “Upon a thorough review of the video from the January 10, 2018 brawl, the Court counts five players on the court, and at most, seven on the Dunbar bench at the time the fight broke out.”

But during the hearing, neither side stopped the video and advanced it frame-by-frame to do a headcount of the number of players coming off the bench to see if it was clear whether that number was seven or eight. The video is not extremely crisp, and the end of the bench near the baseline is not visible in the frame.

Krumholtz writes that Taylor, who is a Dayton Municipal Court bailiff, provided an “unrefuted explanation” for the whereabouts of the key 13th player, John Doe. Taylor testified that he saw John Doe in the locker room hallway as he went out to the ongoing melee.

“Coach Taylor can be seen in the videos exiting the Dunbar locker room area,” Krumholtz wrote. “The Court did not observe any player head into the locker room from the beginning of the video, which starts shortly before the commission of the “hard foul,” until Coach Taylor appears. Thus, as Coach Taylor testified, John Doe was already in the locker room hallway before the fight broke out.”
Oh, was he?
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  #38  
Old 04-26-18, 02:10 PM
CometCountry CometCountry is offline
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Originally Posted by Vike16 View Post
Comet I still have to disagree with you. The adults involved are getting paid and had a obligation to tell the truth. I'm ok with the kids that were in the fight to be punished, and I'm pretty sure the other kids knew who fought. But they are not getting paid and were not under oath, and have no obligation to spill the beans. This is fully a Dunbar and DPS administrative issue. To be honest I feel sorry for all the kids from all the schools involved
Vike I like you and your fair opinions, but where is the punishment for any kid from Dunbar who leaves and plays somewhere else in the tourney next year--yet the kids who don't/can't leave Dunbar and stay are required to sit out the 2019 tourney--we are talking about just a few kids who played in 2 extra tourney games due to perjury being committed under oath by adults--I'm looking at it from the perspective of a Dunbar kid who stays at the school and misses next years tourney--the punishment needs to be fair and equal for ALL--not just those who stay at Dunbar--any kid that transfers can still play the regular season-just like any kid who stays at Dunbar. A penalty has to have teeth or its worthless--like a parent telling a kid to go to their room but its Ok to watch TV, play video games, and text--not much teeth in that punishment!!
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  #39  
Old 04-26-18, 02:48 PM
Yappi Yappi is offline
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OHSAA Release:

Dayton Public Schools and OHSAA Announce Closure to Dunbar Basketball Incident

New evidence leads DPS and OHSAA to same conclusion in aftermath of court case

COLUMBUS, Ohio – Dayton Public Schools superintendent Dr. Elizabeth Lolli and Ohio High School Athletic Association Executive Director Dr. Dan Ross have announced closure to the case involving Dunbar High School boys’ basketball during the 2017-18 season.

In March, Dayton Public Schools filed a lawsuit to block the OHSAA’s decision to remove Dunbar from the boys’ basketball tournament for using an ineligible player, which stemmed from Dunbar not suspending junior varsity players who left the bench during a fight in January. The issue was whether one player, who later participated in a varsity tournament game, left the bench during the fight. The court sided with Dayton Public Schools, stating: “In reviewing the record upon which OHSAA based its decision, the Court finds that OHSAA’s decision is not supported by reliable, probative and substantial evidence.” The court further found “thus, as Coach Taylor testified, John Doe was already in the locker room hallway before the fight broke out.” However, after the Court’s ruling, new evidence came to light, showing that the student-athlete left the bench and went into the fight.

DAYTON PUBLIC SCHOOLS STATEMENT

“I would like to thank Dr. Ross and the OHSAA for working with us to find the truth in this situation,” Lolli said. “It is concerning that individuals with information about the incident did not feel comfortable coming forward before the court hearing. We owe an apology to Bishop Fenwick High School, Thurgood Marshall High School and the OHSAA. We have taken corrective measures to address the situation. We appreciate the OHSAA’s cooperation and compassion during this situation. We know that removal of Dayton Public Schools’ membership in the OHSAA was an option.”

OHSAA STATEMENT

“I was a superintendent for a long time, so I understand what Dr. Lolli has been going through with this,” Ross said. “Our staff was convinced by the evidence we had in making our original decision that the youngster came off the bench when the fight broke out. Once new evidence was obtained and shared with Dr. Lolli, she immediately knew that it was a very serious matter and wanted to work with the OHSAA to make the needed corrections. It has been a pleasure working with her and we trust that nothing like this will happen again at Dayton Public Schools.”

DAYTON PUBLIC SCHOOLS ACTION

Dayton Public Schools began reviewing athletic department structure and procedures immediately after this incident occurred. The District is in the process of making decisions about the athletic department and will be implementing changes over the next several weeks. Dr. Ross has been kept apprised of these discussions. DPS is committed to making certain that its coaches and administrators know and follow OHSAA rules, properly investigate incidents, and impose appropriate consequences for rule violations.

OHSAA SANCTIONS

In addition, the OHSAA has handed down the following sanctions. Dunbar will not be permitted to participate in the 2019 boys’ basketball tournament and Dayton Public Schools will reimburse the OHSAA’s court costs, fees and expenses related to the March hearing. In addition, the OHSAA has extended the current probation period that all Dayton Public Schools are currently serving from a football incident in 2016. That probation is now extended through June 2020 for all DPS schools and through 2022 for Dunbar.

“For the last month, this has been an effort from both sides working together – the OHSAA and Dayton Public Schools,” Ross said. “I commend Dr. Lolli for working hard to do the right thing here and get to the truth. She cares deeply for Dayton Public Schools and understands how important this is for DPS moving forward.”
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  #40  
Old 04-26-18, 03:35 PM
Look Ma No Hands Look Ma No Hands is offline
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Originally Posted by Yappi View Post
In addition, the OHSAA has extended the current probation period that all Dayton Public Schools are currently serving from a football incident in 2016. That probation is now extended through June 2020 for all DPS schools and through 2022 for Dunbar.
I'm an outsider looking in. What actually is the effect of this probation? What impact does it have?
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  #41  
Old 04-26-18, 03:37 PM
Look Ma No Hands Look Ma No Hands is offline
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Originally Posted by Yappi View Post
Ross said. ďI commend Dr. Lolli for working hard to do the right thing here and get to the truth. She cares deeply for Dayton Public Schools and understands how important this is for DPS moving forward.Ē
No kidding. When provided with the smoking gun she is all about the truth. How big of her. She backed her liars ahead of the OHSAA. Does she still think the OHSAA is out to get them?
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  #42  
Old 04-26-18, 03:42 PM
vamp2syd vamp2syd is offline
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Dunbar was already on probation.... and then once again, something happens, a cover up, and their probation gets extended.....

No, the only solution to this is Dunbar should get the death penalty for all sports. Any Dunbar athlete is free to transfer to another DPS school with no penalties (ALL DPS schools are open enrollment). Any student that transfers to another district without moving there still would have to adhere to the transfer bylaws.....

Baker should be fired and those who lied should be prosecuted.
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  #43  
Old 04-26-18, 03:44 PM
vamp2syd vamp2syd is offline
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Originally Posted by Look Ma No Hands View Post
I'm an outsider looking in. What actually is the effect of this probation? What impact does it have?
Has no impact at all since Dunbar was already on probation for throwing a football game in 2016.
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  #44  
Old 04-26-18, 03:46 PM
D4fan D4fan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CometCountry View Post
Vike I like you and your fair opinions, but where is the punishment for any kid from Dunbar who leaves and plays somewhere else in the tourney next year--yet the kids who don't/can't leave Dunbar and stay are required to sit out the 2019 tourney--we are talking about just a few kids who played in 2 extra tourney games due to perjury being committed under oath by adults--I'm looking at it from the perspective of a Dunbar kid who stays at the school and misses next years tourney--the punishment needs to be fair and equal for ALL--not just those who stay at Dunbar--any kid that transfers can still play the regular season-just like any kid who stays at Dunbar. A penalty has to have teeth or its worthless--like a parent telling a kid to go to their room but its Ok to watch TV, play video games, and text--not much teeth in that punishment!!
A teacher I know will not inform a student of a specific punishment until the day of the activity they are barred from. The reason, today's parents will allow their precious children to "avoid" the punishment by staying home for the day rather than being deprived of a special event the rest of the class gets to participate in. Hard to put teeth in a punishment today.
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  #45  
Old 04-26-18, 04:30 PM
Kballer Kballer is offline
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The adults at DPS have failed these kids miserably. They have in the past two years told them it is ok to cheat, fight, lie about it all for a chance to move on in a tournament. If I were a Dayton taxpayer or teacher I would be pissed $ was going to pay for court costs to play in a game instead of much needed resources for their primary mission- to educate kids.
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  #46  
Old 04-26-18, 04:47 PM
CometCountry CometCountry is offline
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Originally Posted by D4fan View Post
A teacher I know will not inform a student of a specific punishment until the day of the activity they are barred from. The reason, today's parents will allow their precious children to "avoid" the punishment by staying home for the day rather than being deprived of a special event the rest of the class gets to participate in. Hard to put teeth in a punishment today.
True D4 but those of us that believe in "teachable moments" still can pull it off---kids that stay at Dunbar won't play in the 2019 tourney and any kid who played vs. Fenwick and/or Woodward, if they transfer, should not play in the 2019 tourney for their new school--can't be very many kids-- but it's equal and fair punishment for all involved in the debacle.
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  #47  
Old 04-26-18, 05:13 PM
vamp2syd vamp2syd is offline
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Was it also at Dunbar where a coach allowed 2 kids to fight it out in the locker room?
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  #48  
Old 04-26-18, 05:23 PM
Raider6309 Raider6309 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vamp2syd View Post
Dunbar was already on probation.... and then once again, something happens, a cover up, and their probation gets extended.....

No, the only solution to this is Dunbar should get the death penalty for all sports. Any Dunbar athlete is free to transfer to another DPS school with no penalties (ALL DPS schools are open enrollment). Any student that transfers to another district without moving there still would have to adhere to the transfer bylaws.....

Baker should be fired and those who lied should be prosecuted.
You just want him gone to get those athletes at Huber Wayne in sports

As an outsider this is a waste of money. Wouldnít the rule be Dunbar takes two Lís where the player played. Has nothing to do with the tournament. This happened in Janurary
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  #49  
Old 04-26-18, 06:14 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by Raider6309 View Post
You just want him gone to get those athletes at Huber Wayne in sports

As an outsider this is a waste of money. Wouldnít the rule be Dunbar takes two Lís where the player played. Has nothing to do with the tournament. This happened in Janurary
The player was ineligible to participate because he did not serve his suspension.

Once an ineligible player participates in a contest, that contest according to OHSAA rules an regulations is forfeited. This applies to regular season and tournament contests.
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  #50  
Old 04-26-18, 06:29 PM
Raider6309 Raider6309 is offline
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Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
The player was ineligible to participate because he did not serve his suspension.

Once an ineligible player participates in a contest, that contest according to OHSAA rules an regulations is forfeited. This applies to regular season and tournament contests.
Wouldn’t they just forfeit the next two games and call it a day? But I’m not a rules person

Last edited by Raider6309; 04-26-18 at 06:42 PM.
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  #51  
Old 04-26-18, 06:48 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by Raider6309 View Post
Wouldnít they just forfeit the next two games and call it a day? But Iím not a rules person
The player is ineligible until the suspension is served.

Since the suspension wasn't served, he was ineligible.
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  #52  
Old 04-26-18, 07:06 PM
vamp2syd vamp2syd is offline
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Originally Posted by Raider6309 View Post
You just want him gone to get those athletes at Huber Wayne in sports

As an outsider this is a waste of money. Wouldnít the rule be Dunbar takes two Lís where the player played. Has nothing to do with the tournament. This happened in Janurary
We have plenty of athletes at Wayne and as I stated I said they could transfer to any other DPS school without penalty. Wayne is NOT a DPS school and it is NOT an open enrollment school so it would do no good for them to come here as they would not be eligible for the 2nd half of the season.

I as just about everyone else wants Baker gone because he is bad for DPS.
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  #53  
Old 04-26-18, 08:17 PM
Groundhog Day Groundhog Day is offline
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Originally Posted by vamp2syd View Post
Has no impact at all since Dunbar was already on probation for throwing a football game in 2016.
Based on past DPS history, nothing will happen. Lolli has already been quoted as saying no one will be fired (yes I know, no coaches on one year contracts are technically fired, just not renewed). Also, based on her comments that they are already implementing new procedures actually probably gives Baker MORE power.

DPS through athletics is probably short over $150,000 due to fines, 2 years of no football playoffs at Welcome (rent/parking/concessions) let alone impact of area businesses. Only common thread is Baker. He ain't going anywhere. The only BOE to speak against him last year, LOST in his re-election bid.
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  #54  
Old 04-26-18, 08:52 PM
Carl Rick Carl Rick is offline
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The public comments from the OHSAA were very kind. Think about all the levels of deceit from DPS then the Super's public comments about the OHSAA. They could have given them far worse consequences. Dunbar, no tournament next year, that's it. Probation means nothing unless you are stupid enough to do something really unethical....wait, that is exactly what they already did and again, it could have been worse. Baker seems to have a great deal of power on some level. I don't like saying fire people but if he isn't put on triple probation with a huge performance review then it stinks even worse. I am curious what his qualifications are? What kind of degree? Certification? Anyone know?
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  #55  
Old 04-26-18, 11:53 PM
Look Ma No Hands Look Ma No Hands is offline
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Clearly the guy who perjured himself and gave an "unrefuted explanation" that the player John Doe was not on the court but in the locker room, has to lose his job(s).
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  #56  
Old 04-27-18, 08:16 AM
3out2in 3out2in is offline
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Originally Posted by vamp2syd View Post
Was it also at Dunbar where a coach allowed 2 kids to fight it out in the locker room?
Yes and then some genius at DPS gave him a promotion to AD. This is on him as was the football incident. The current basketball coach at Dunbar perjured himself as well.
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  #57  
Old 04-27-18, 08:32 AM
ohiopup ohiopup is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl Rick;7t035072
The public comments from the OHSAA were very kind. Think about all the levels of deceit from DPS then the Super's public comments about the OHSAA. They could have given them far worse consequences. Dunbar, no tournament next year, that's it. Probation means nothing unless you are stupid enough to do something really unethical....wait, that is exactly what they already did and again, it could have been worse. Baker seems to have a great deal of power on some level. I don't like saying fire people but if he isn't put on triple probation with a huge performance review then it stinks even worse. I am curious what his qualifications are? What kind of degree? Certification? Anyone know?

Certification: Ohio Board of Education Youth contact / coach
Dayton Public Schools

Mark Baker, Director of Athletics

Hired...
https://www.mydaytondailynews.com/sp...gxVDfj0W0UCWN/

“All my life I have always had to come from the mindset to keep my head up and preserve,” said Baker, who will make $84,000 a year. “My mom, she instilled that in me and it is what I tried to extend to others. Good or bad, you have to stay committed. This tested my faith.”
- - -

Ohio State alum
Minor appearance in NBA and Europian BB league
Former head basketball coach at Trotwood-Madison / resigned...
... over locker room fight incident and was disciplined. (see Previous infraction - below)
Former head basketball coach at Middletown.
former head coach of the Dayton Jets of the International Basketball League

OSU...
https://www.elevenwarriors.com/forum...id-a-bad-thing

Previous infraction...
https://www.athleticbusiness.com/hig...-forfeits.html

- - -

DPS could terminate him at any given time. He's admin (no union).

:>---

Leatherneck
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  #58  
Old 04-27-18, 09:08 AM
Zezzo! Zezzo! is offline
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Originally Posted by CometCountry View Post
I was a HS bball coach for 27 years, have two kids currently an HC and varsity assistant, retired 35 years guidance counselor--and absolutely was a 3-sport playing kid. The OHSAA punishment holds no water if only the school Dunbar can't play in the tournament, but the kids who played the 2 extra games, after the "see no evil--hear no evil" perjury, can transfer with open enrollment and play in the 2019 tourney like everything is just fine. Certainly the adults can be punished by suspensions and losing jobs but sometimes punishment has to be hard for ALL involved--adults and kids. Not saying the kids can't transfer and play the season at a new school, but they do need to sit out the 2019 tourney just like the SCHOOL Dunbar (and the kids who remain there will have to do) to serve their punishment--or the punishment is toothless!!
CC I understand your sentiment however none of the Varsity players were involved they weren't even on the court they were in the lockeroom so they had nothing to do with it, didn't even see it. The fight occured in the JV game between JV players, those are the players that should be punished for next year even if they transfer, that's where your sentiment makes complete sense, OHSAA has their names they know who they are. To punish kids who weren't even there completely makes no sense. Even if other kids knew who it was and didn't tell, they still should not be punished, their kids they want to play, 98% percent of H.S. kids in America wouldn't tell my 30 years of coaching and teaching experience tells me that and that's not fair to the innocent kids. If a parent wants to remove that innocent varsity kid from that environment by transferring he shouldn't be punished. That is discrimination.

Last edited by Zezzo!; 04-27-18 at 09:30 AM.
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  #59  
Old 04-27-18, 09:26 AM
Zezzo! Zezzo! is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CometCountry View Post
Vike I like you and your fair opinions, but where is the punishment for any kid from Dunbar who leaves and plays somewhere else in the tourney next year--yet the kids who don't/can't leave Dunbar and stay are required to sit out the 2019 tourney--we are talking about just a few kids who played in 2 extra tourney games due to perjury being committed under oath by adults--I'm looking at it from the perspective of a Dunbar kid who stays at the school and misses next years tourney--the punishment needs to be fair and equal for ALL--not just those who stay at Dunbar--any kid that transfers can still play the regular season-just like any kid who stays at Dunbar. A penalty has to have teeth or its worthless--like a parent telling a kid to go to their room but its Ok to watch TV, play video games, and text--not much teeth in that punishment!!
CC the point your missing is that those kids and the parents have a choice to stay at Dunbar and play, if they do, they endure the consequences of OHSAA's decision that's what the kids/parents know going in. The punishment itself is for Dunbar school and anyone in it's basketball program knows that going into next season that they will not be eligible for tourney play.
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Old 04-27-18, 10:34 AM
Carl Rick Carl Rick is offline
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Join Date: 02-28-09
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ohiopup, thanks, he has no certifications. I wonder if he graduated from OSU?
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