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  #91  
Old 03-08-17, 11:06 PM
Possessed Possessed is offline
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Originally Posted by TylerDurden View Post
If Saudi Arabia is so on board with us, why are they responsible for one of the most radical teachings of Islam?
What I want is a removal of our presence in that region. I don't want us picking out bad guys and propping up good guys. That place is a mess and we need out.
Yours is an isolation position that would lead down a bad road. Like it or not, we have to deal with "that region" on some level. We could pull out, and let them at each other. Meanwhile, oil reserves would be needed once Saudi cut us off. Now, you have an entire region at war eventually (world war is never fun). Iran finally raiding Iraq. Saudi and Iran going at it (Suni and Shiite and they've been on the verge for some time). Now what? How are we going to stop Russia or anyone else from going in and protecting their interests? I guess throw Israel to the wolves while we're at it, although I think you'd be just fine with that. Terrorism would grow so exponentially that American travel would be SEVERELY limited. With oil problems and not being able to travel... and who knows what it would do to our import/export... what would our new economy look like?

Unfortunately, that shortsighted ideology is pretty common. The adage "fight a little now or a fight a lot later" comes into pay here. I mean after all... We could pull out and just let Iran nuke the place. Or we could shake hands with the devil and do our best to keep our sons from fighting a much larger war later and be realistic about it.
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  #92  
Old 03-08-17, 11:11 PM
TylerDurden TylerDurden is offline
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Originally Posted by Possessed View Post
Yours is an isolation position that would lead down a bad road. Like it or not, we have to deal with "that region" on some level. We could pull out, and let them at each other. Meanwhile, oil reserves would be needed once Saudi cut us off. Now, you have an entire region at war eventually (world war is never fun). Iran finally raiding Iraq. Saudi and Iran going at it (Suni and Shiite and they've been on the verge for some time). Now what? How are we going to stop Russia or anyone else from going in and protecting their interests? I guess throw Israel to the wolves while we're at it, although I think you'd be just fine with that. Terrorism would grow so exponentially that American travel would be SEVERELY limited. With oil problems and not being able to travel... and who knows what it would do to our import/export... what would our new economy look like?

Unfortunately, that shortsighted ideology is pretty common. The adage "fight a little now or a fight a lot later" comes into pay here. I mean after all... We could pull out and just let Iran nuke the place. Or we could shake hands with the devil and do our best to keep our sons from fighting a much larger war later and be realistic about it.
Mine is not a policy of isolationism, you just don't grasp that term. As far as Israel goes, they're not the 51st state. As I've stated many times, I wish we were more like them when it came to putting ourselves first. The idea that Iran would just "nuke" the place is ridiculous fear mongering. Can individuals over there commit terrorist acts, of course, but the idea of a defensive war with a middle eastern country in our lifetime is just plain dumb.
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  #93  
Old 03-08-17, 11:14 PM
y2h y2h is offline
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Originally Posted by TylerDurden View Post
You completely ignored my point and instead pointed to part of the reason why they weren't on the list. If the concern is truly radical Muslims getting into this country, Saudi Arabia has to be on that list.
SA has a functional government which can assist in vetting people. Who the heck is in charge in Yemen?
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  #94  
Old 03-08-17, 11:19 PM
TylerDurden TylerDurden is offline
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Originally Posted by y2h View Post
SA has a functional government which can assist in vetting people. Who the heck is in charge in Yemen?
Yeah, I'd argue to the functionality of a monarchy. But to that point, can you explain why that "functional government," which is trying to help us out, is accused by many of also allowing the teaching of the most radical form of Islam?
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  #95  
Old 03-08-17, 11:33 PM
JediMaster JediMaster is offline
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Originally Posted by TylerDurden View Post
Huh? Wilson was a progressive, and as such, was a fan of the exact opposite of what I'm in favor of.
I wasn't comparing every policy decision he made with your total belief system, but in relation to the topic at hand and how he viewed U.S. involvement for World War I (foreign affairs) compared with how you view the Middle East (foreign affairs) and how we need to get out because it's not our fight to fight, despite the rather large number of people over there who plot to do Americans and our allies harm, and who wish to spread their wicked ideology across the globe by any means necessary.

Last edited by JediMaster; 03-09-17 at 12:24 AM.
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  #96  
Old 03-08-17, 11:38 PM
TylerDurden TylerDurden is offline
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Originally Posted by JediMaster View Post
I wasn't comparing every policy decision he made with your total belief system, but in relation to the topic at hand and how he viewed U.S. involvement for World War II (foreign affairs) compared with how you view the Middle East (foreign affairs) and how we need to get out because it's not our fight to fight, despite the rather large number of people over there who plot to do Americans and our allies harm, and who wish to spread their wicked ideology across the globe by any means necessary.
Wilson was WWI, and he was pro US involvement whereas I'm the opposite. Not sure what you're getting at here. Non-interventionism is basically the opposite of Wilsonianism which is why your accusation made absolutely no sense.

Last edited by TylerDurden; 03-08-17 at 11:50 PM.
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  #97  
Old 03-08-17, 11:38 PM
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Originally Posted by TylerDurden View Post
Mine is not a policy of isolationism, you just don't grasp that term. As far as Israel goes, they're not the 51st state. As I've stated many times, I wish we were more like them when it came to putting ourselves first. The idea that Iran would just "nuke" the place is ridiculous fear mongering. Can individuals over there commit terrorist acts, of course, but the idea of a defensive war with a middle eastern country in our lifetime is just plain dumb.
How is Iran nuking the place ridiculous fear mongering when their leaders talk about doing it all the time lol?

And your stuck on a defensive war as if they'd invade or something. War comes in many forms. You're also forgetting how many Muslims ms are in the Far East. If left unchecked, radical Islam would make in near impossible for Americans or any nonMuslims to travel almost anywhere. Couple that with oil shortage and a wrecked economy and we'd be an "attrition war" before you know it. And then what? Pack up and go fight a large war. And Israel doesn't need to be the 51st state, or 58th if you're Obama. But when you start abandoning Allies... they start abandoning you. Turn your back on Israel and plunge them into a massive war, and you might have to answer to your other Allies who are also Allies with Israel. World Wars start over such things man.
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  #98  
Old 03-08-17, 11:42 PM
TylerDurden TylerDurden is offline
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Originally Posted by Possessed View Post
How is Iran nuking the place ridiculous fear mongering when their leaders talk about doing it all the time lol?
Because they don't?

Quote:
And your stuck on a defensive war as if they'd invade or something. War comes in many forms. You're also forgetting how many Muslims ms are in the Far East. If left unchecked, radical Islam would make in near impossible for Americans or any nonMuslims to travel almost anywhere.
Wars shouldn't be fought for the ability to travel abroad.

Quote:
Couple that with oil shortage and a wrecked economy and we'd be an "attrition war" before you know it. And then what? Pack up and go fight a large war. And Israel doesn't need to be the 51st state, or 58th if you're Obama. But when you start abandoning Allies... they start abandoning you. Turn your back on Israel and plunge them into a massive war, and you might have to answer to your other Allies who are also Allies with Israel. World Wars start over such things man.
Didn't our founders warn about entangling alliances?
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  #99  
Old 03-09-17, 12:04 AM
JediMaster JediMaster is offline
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Originally Posted by TylerDurden View Post
Wilson was WWI, and he was pro US involvement whereas I'm the opposite. Not sure what you're getting at here. Non-interventionism is basically the opposite of Wilsonianism which is why your accusation made absolutely no sense.
I typo'd the war but he was first actually against entering the Great War and wanted the U.S. to remain neutral, as to not get dragged into a conflict that in his eyes and the eyes of many in the U.S., didn't concern the U.S. at the time. It's funny you mention Wilsonianism when he came up with his 14 points as A MEANS TO END THE WAR HE DIDN'T WANT TO BE A PART OF! Wilsonianism became his foreign policy after the failure of his prior non-interventionism, before the war

Hence the comparison between you and Woodrow Wilson. You both don't want to get involved in foreign affairs until AFTER sh**s already hit the fan..

Last edited by JediMaster; 03-09-17 at 12:21 AM.
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  #100  
Old 03-09-17, 12:20 AM
Possessed Possessed is offline
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Originally Posted by TylerDurden View Post
Because they don't?



Wars shouldn't be fought for the ability to travel abroad.



Didn't our founders warn about entangling alliances?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...lear-deal.html

The fact that you think Iran has never said they want Israel destroyed ed pretty much negates anything else you have to say about it. What kind of mental gymnastics do you have to do to change nvince yourself Iran doesn't want to nuke Israel?
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  #101  
Old 03-09-17, 06:36 AM
TylerDurden TylerDurden is offline
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Originally Posted by Possessed View Post
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...lear-deal.html

The fact that you think Iran has never said they want Israel destroyed ed pretty much negates anything else you have to say about it. What kind of mental gymnastics do you have to do to change nvince yourself Iran doesn't want to nuke Israel?
The article states nothing about an Iranian leader saying he wants to nuke Israel. Since it happens all the time you should be able to find something. From your article:

Quote:
It says the "proper way of eliminating Israel" is for "all the original people of Palestine including Muslims, Christians and Jews wherever they are, whether inside Palestine, in refugee camps in other countries or just anywhere else, take part in a public and organized referendum." The "Jewish immigrants who have been persuaded into emigration to Palestine do not have the right to take part," he adds.
I mean, you might not agree with it, I might not agree with it, but it's not a threat to use nuclear weapons.
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  #102  
Old 03-09-17, 06:49 AM
Possessed Possessed is offline
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Originally Posted by TylerDurden View Post
The article states nothing about an Iranian leader saying he wants to nuke Israel. Since it happens all the time you should be able to find something. From your article:



I mean, you might not agree with it, I might not agree with it, but it's not a threat to use nuclear weapons.
Semantics should be beneath you. I guess when he states Israel won't live to see the next 25 years he means they'll march over and kill them all with hand to hand combat? They have REPEATEDLY stated they want Israel destroyed. Anyone with a minuscule amount of common sense would agree Iran would use a nuke against them if they could.
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  #103  
Old 03-09-17, 06:53 AM
TylerDurden TylerDurden is offline
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Originally Posted by JediMaster View Post
I typo'd the war but he was first actually against entering the Great War and wanted the U.S. to remain neutral, as to not get dragged into a conflict that in his eyes and the eyes of many in the U.S., didn't concern the U.S. at the time. It's funny you mention Wilsonianism when he came up with his 14 points as A MEANS TO END THE WAR HE DIDN'T WANT TO BE A PART OF! Wilsonianism became his foreign policy after the failure of his prior non-interventionism, before the war
What's funny about that? You compared my non-interventionist beliefs with that of someone who was directly opposed to said belief. Makes no sense. So the fact that he wanted to remain neutral at the beginning of WWI trumps all the other interventionist beliefs he held before and after the war? This would be like me calling you Hillary Clinton if you both agreed on the use of force in Iraq.

Quote:
Hence the comparison between you and Woodrow Wilson. You both don't want to get involved in foreign affairs until AFTER sh**s already hit the fan..
Woodrow Wilson WAS involved in foreign affairs his entire presidency. And even if the hits the fan, while I believe in nation defense I don't believe in nation building or spreading democracy. So you're kind of incorrect regarding your claims about both of us.
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  #104  
Old 03-09-17, 06:56 AM
TylerDurden TylerDurden is offline
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Originally Posted by Possessed View Post
Semantics should be beneath you. I guess when he states Israel won't live to see the next 25 years he means they'll march over and kill them all with hand to hand combat? They have REPEATEDLY stated they want Israel destroyed. Anyone with a minuscule amount of common sense would agree Iran would use a nuke against them if they could.
So now they haven't ACTUALLY repeatedly made threats to nuke Israel, you just think that's what they'd do? And they'd do this with no regard for the nuclear fallout in the region, the Muslims who would no doubt be killed and the assured destruction of Iran that would follow?
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  #105  
Old 03-09-17, 07:00 AM
tallmadge H2 dad tallmadge H2 dad is offline
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  #106  
Old 03-09-17, 08:41 AM
JediMaster JediMaster is offline
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Originally Posted by TylerDurden View Post
What's funny about that? You compared my non-interventionist beliefs with that of someone who was directly opposed to said belief. Makes no sense. So the fact that he wanted to remain neutral at the beginning of WWI trumps all the other interventionist beliefs he held before and after the war? This would be like me calling you Hillary Clinton if you both agreed on the use of force in Iraq.



Woodrow Wilson WAS involved in foreign affairs his entire presidency. And even if the hits the fan, while I believe in nation defense I don't believe in nation building or spreading democracy. So you're kind of incorrect regarding your claims about both of us.
Are you a rock? I said you're like Woodrow Wilson, you get offended and confused because you thought he always held interventionist beliefs throughout his presidency, I corrected you and specified how you both do not want to enter foreign conflict on the basis and philosophy of it having nothing to do with America, you try to again analyze the entirety of Woodrow Wilson's presidency and policy-making compared with you're own

The fact remains that you believe we shouldn't be militarily involved with countries or regions who are actively seeking ways to kill Americans and spread evil ideologies. You must've enjoyed it when Obama referred to ISIS as the "JV" team because it goes along with the narrative that you apparently wish to expand on; that what's going on over there isn't a big deal for Americans' safety.

As I previously said, I ultimately agree with you that we shouldn't be over there,
however as there's no country over there with the balls to do what needs to be done in eliminating jihadists, 'Merica can and should keep on "spreading democracy"

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  #107  
Old 03-09-17, 09:14 AM
chs1971 chs1971 is offline
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Originally Posted by JediMaster View Post
It's funny you mention Wilsonianism when he came up with his 14 points as A MEANS TO END THE WAR HE DIDN'T WANT TO BE A PART OF!
Actually it was more a plan to prevent future wars. There was nothing in it that was going to end the war already in progress.
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  #108  
Old 03-09-17, 09:21 AM
chs1971 chs1971 is offline
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Originally Posted by TylerDurden View Post
Wilson was WWI, and he was pro US involvement ...
Not for the first 32 months of the war
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  #109  
Old 03-09-17, 09:36 AM
JediMaster JediMaster is offline
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Originally Posted by chs1971 View Post
Actually it was more a plan to prevent future wars. There was nothing in it that was going to end the war already in progress.
True, I can see how I overstated the purpose in relation to that war specifically. I should have just said his 14 points were made at the conclusion of the war as a means to establish his vision for American foreign policy going forward to prevent future wars from occurring. It was the succeeding administrations after him that progressively wanted to abandon interventionism (understandably and largely due to the Great Depression's economic hardships at home) which led to the allowance and rise of Hitler/Communism and all the atrocities that ensued. The U.S. MUST remain a global presence with the realities of existing foreign and organized evil. History would agree

Last edited by JediMaster; 03-09-17 at 09:47 AM.
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  #110  
Old 03-09-17, 09:52 AM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by TylerDurden View Post
So now they haven't ACTUALLY repeatedly made threats to nuke Israel, you just think that's what they'd do? And they'd do this with no regard for the nuclear fallout in the region, the Muslims who would no doubt be killed and the assured destruction of Iran that would follow?
https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/9...eats-israel-us

OK. So they didn't say nuclear weapons specifically but the threat to "raze the Zionist regime in less than eight minutes" doesn't sound like they are interested in having a sit down over tea and cookies either.
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  #111  
Old 03-09-17, 10:10 AM
JediMaster JediMaster is offline
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Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/9...eats-israel-us

OK. So they didn't say nuclear weapons specifically but the threat to "raze the Zionist regime in less than eight minutes" doesn't sound like they are interested in having a sit down over tea and cookies either.
Is it really not blatantly obvious to people that they wouldn't say "we'll use nukes on the Jews!" in order propagate the facade to the UN that they'd only use their nuclear program for energy, not bomb making?
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  #112  
Old 03-09-17, 10:22 AM
chs1971 chs1971 is offline
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Originally Posted by JediMaster View Post
True, I can see how I overstated the purpose in relation to that war specifically. I should have just said his 14 points were made at the conclusion of the war
Wilson first proposed his 14 Points eleven months before the war ended.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JediMaster View Post
... as a means to establish his vision for American foreign policy ...
They were about international policy. If the 14 Points only applied to the US they would have meant nothing, the major powers of Europe would have to agree to abide by them

Quote:
Originally Posted by JediMaster View Post
It was the succeeding administrations after him that progressively wanted to abandon interventionism (understandably and largely due to the Great Depression's economic hardships at home)
The period of Isolationism was not due to the Great Depression at all. It began while Wilson was still President when the Senate refused to ratify the Versailles Treaty and join the League of Nations and grew during the prosperity of the Twenties.

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Originally Posted by JediMaster View Post
... which led to the allowance and rise of Hitler/Communism and all the atrocities that ensued.
The communists took control of Russia during WWI before the US joined the war. Nothing we could have done would have prevented it. And I really don't know how we could have stopped the rise of Hitler. That was something Great Britain, France, and Russia would have to have done, and they were unable or unwilling.
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  #113  
Old 03-09-17, 10:52 AM
JediMaster JediMaster is offline
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Originally Posted by chs1971 View Post
Wilson first proposed his 14 Points eleven months before the war ended.

They were about international policy. If the 14 Points only applied to the US they would have meant nothing, the major powers of Europe would have to agree to abide by them

The period of Isolationism was not due to the Great Depression at all. It began while Wilson was still President when the Senate refused to ratify the Versailles Treaty and join the League of Nations and grew during the prosperity of the Twenties.

The communists took control of Russia during WWI before the US joined the war. Nothing we could have done would have prevented it. And I really don't know how we could have stopped the rise of Hitler. That was something Great Britain, France, and Russia would have to have done, and they were unable or unwilling.
So the rise and progressive spread of incompatable ideology and Hitler coming to power were just coincidences to one of the strongest periods of isolationism in America, post-19th century ? I pointed to the Great Depression as being a reasonable factor for us not getting involved in trying to quash rising problematic powers overseas, while I did say largely (because it crippled the entire country), I didn't say it was the only reason we stayed in "isolation". Although as you pointed out, isolationism started while he was still President but not because he wanted it to, he knew what was at stake but a majority of the country did not and that's why isolationism continued into the 40s when we were left with no other choice but to get involved.

Last edited by JediMaster; 03-09-17 at 11:13 AM.
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  #114  
Old 03-09-17, 11:17 AM
chs1971 chs1971 is offline
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Originally Posted by JediMaster View Post
So the rise and progressive spread of incompatable ideology and Hitler coming to power were just coincidences to one of the strongest periods of isolationism in America, post-19th century ?
No, they both come from the failure of WWI, but our policies did not lead to the rise of Hitler. You might be the only person who thinks otherwise.
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  #115  
Old 03-09-17, 11:28 AM
JediMaster JediMaster is offline
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Originally Posted by chs1971 View Post
No, they both come from the failure of WWI, but our policies did not lead to the rise of Hitler. You might be the only person who thinks otherwise.
Even though you'd obviously disagree with him, at least Senator John McCain thinks so too lol. It's not a particularly popular belief because there was no explicit written policy stating "let Hitler do his thing, y'all", but our non-policy on the matter certainly did. It was "indirectly", if that clarifies the rationale in connections made

Last edited by JediMaster; 03-09-17 at 11:54 AM.
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  #116  
Old 03-09-17, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by eastisbest View Post
The 9/11 attackers were from Saudi. Not banned. Your own motivations should seem a bit murky to you if you think that was a good post. Dearborn, half of it anyhow, loves Trump. Dearborn is full of self-made small business people who look forward to what a biz prez will bring.

Doesn't fit your bigotries does it?
Of the 19 ~ 9/11 Terrorists

15 were from Saudi Arabia
2 were from the United Arab Emirates
1 from Egypt
1 from Lebanon

ALL were Muslim

Some were in violation of their Visas, Which, if I were POTUS, they'd be
out in a N.Y. minute.

:>---

S-F
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  #117  
Old 03-09-17, 02:27 PM
Possessed Possessed is offline
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Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/9...eats-israel-us

OK. So they didn't say nuclear weapons specifically but the threat to "raze the Zionist regime in less than eight minutes" doesn't sound like they are interested in having a sit down over tea and cookies either.
Yeah, cause you know, they think they can go in with troops and destroy Israel in 8 minutes.

At some point common sense will override this naivety or ignorance.
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  #118  
Old 03-09-17, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by JediMaster View Post
Even though you'd obviously disagree with him, at least Senator John McCain thinks so too lol.
I'd have to see a citation or quote before I believe that McCan said that.

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Originally Posted by JediMaster View Post
It's not a particularly popular belief because there was no explicit written policy stating "let Hitler do his thing, y'all", but our non-policy on the matter certainly did. It was "indirectly", if that clarifies the rationale in connections made
It does not.
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  #119  
Old 03-09-17, 08:57 PM
JediMaster JediMaster is offline
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Originally Posted by chs1971 View Post
I'd have to see a citation or quote before I believe that McCan said that.

It does not.


Since you're still unclear, I'll try my best to lay it out even simpler for you. People like John McCain and myself contend that the United States' decision to become isolationists/non-interventionists in regards to the growing and spreading "incompatible-to-freedom" ideologies of countries like Germany and Russia throughout the 20s and 30s played a part in the rise of evil powers. The evidence for such a conclusion is by making the not-so-giant leap in seeing how when we aren't over there actively suppressing evil, especially in conjunction with our allies of the regions who can't get it done on their own, allowed Hitler to build up the Nazi party and start imprisoning and murdering Jews, allowed communism, not capitalism or democracy, to be the "talk of the town" in places susceptible to falling to authoritarian regimes. People of Eastern Europe/Asia were SOAKED in the indoctrination of communism and socialism and not capitalism/democracy simply because we WEREN'T THERE. Evil powers rose and knew they could do so aggressively because they knew America wouldn't do s*** about it.

Last edited by JediMaster; 03-09-17 at 09:22 PM.
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  #120  
Old 03-09-17, 09:05 PM
JediMaster JediMaster is offline
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http://ic.galegroup.com/ic/uhic/Refe...e3cf929f8aabdc

https://history.state.gov/milestones...n-isolationism


More reading on the thought process
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