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  #61  
Old 03-08-17, 11:29 AM
Jim Lahey Jim Lahey is offline
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Originally Posted by BlueJayFan View Post
I have my opinion on the last ban Trump tried to enforce Hasn't changed. Some of us don't feel the need to have the same debate 3959384736 different times in 839483859 different threads
So um again, I'll ask: why are you there then? And if you don't want to have the same debate, why did you post the same debate?

You don't have any thoughts on the changes made between this "Muslim ban" and the previous one? You do know it isn't the exact same thing, right?
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  #62  
Old 03-08-17, 11:33 AM
Possessed Possessed is offline
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Originally Posted by BlueJayFan View Post
Some of us don't feel the need to have the same debate 3959384736 different times in 839483859 different threads
And yet you started another thread.

Last edited by Possessed; 03-08-17 at 11:58 AM.
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  #63  
Old 03-08-17, 11:39 AM
sapientia et veritas sapientia et veritas is offline
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Originally Posted by Jim Lahey View Post
So um again, I'll ask: why are you there then?
Trolling for echoes.
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  #64  
Old 03-08-17, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by TylerDurden View Post
I mean, I don't have an issue with properly vetting immigrants, but you guys act like Americans are dying as we speak due to immigration from Muslim countries.
First of all we already have instances of Islamics killing Americans here and secondly, why wait until there is another 9/11? All you have to do is look at Europe to see where this is all headed. Heck it's already started in the US, have you looked at Dearborn, MI. lately?!?!?

If we don't start to address the negative side of the Islamic belief now then what will you be saying when it's at your front door step? What will it take for people like you to realize that there is a global movement going on with the Islamic extremists and that it is growing. Remember when Obama called ISIS the JV?

The company I work for has recently decided not to send any American employees to the Philippines now because of the unrest being generated from the Islmics in that country(of course they won't state that is the reason but it's pretty obvious why with the recent problems there). There is an ISIS type group pirating the seas in that area and kidnapping people to gain ransom. If the country or company doesn't pay off then they cut off the kidnapped persons head.

The global migration of Muslims is a major issue, I honestly don't understand why people are burying their head in the sand on this issue just because there are some who say it's a peaceful religion.

Heck they can't even get along with themselves as they try to commit genocide against warring factions within their own so called faith.
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  #65  
Old 03-08-17, 06:02 PM
eastisbest eastisbest is offline
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Originally Posted by MoeDude View Post
First of all we already have instances of Islamics killing Americans here and secondly, why wait until there is another 9/11? All you have to do is look at Europe to see where this is all headed. Heck it's already started in the US, have you looked at Dearborn, MI. lately?!?!?
The 9/11 terrorists lived here? Who knew? Maybe they secretly shared a cottage with Tim McVey?

By "Dearborn lately," do you mean Dearborn for at least the last five decades? They're not having problems in Dearborn.
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  #66  
Old 03-08-17, 06:15 PM
lotr10 lotr10 is online now
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Originally Posted by MoeDude View Post
First of all we already have instances of Islamics killing Americans here and secondly, why wait until there is another 9/11? All you have to do is look at Europe to see where this is all headed. Heck it's already started in the US, have you looked at Dearborn, MI. lately?!?!?

If we don't start to address the negative side of the Islamic belief now then what will you be saying when it's at your front door step? What will it take for people like you to realize that there is a global movement going on with the Islamic extremists and that it is growing. Remember when Obama called ISIS the JV?

The company I work for has recently decided not to send any American employees to the Philippines now because of the unrest being generated from the Islmics in that country(of course they won't state that is the reason but it's pretty obvious why with the recent problems there). There is an ISIS type group pirating the seas in that area and kidnapping people to gain ransom. If the country or company doesn't pay off then they cut off the kidnapped persons head.

The global migration of Muslims is a major issue, I honestly don't understand why people are burying their head in the sand on this issue just because there are some who say it's a peaceful religion.

Heck they can't even get along with themselves as they try to commit genocide against warring factions within their own so called faith.
Great post MoeDude. I just don't get the folks who are against the simple steps Trump is taking here? Their motivations are murky to me.

As you state in your post this is a simple common sense effort to PREVENT future problems. It's a recognition that the BEST time to address a problem is in its early stages. You want to fix the leak in the roof when it's small not wait until after it damages the houses infrastructure.

The bottom line is a properly vetted immigration program is a great tool that is both cheap & efficient at dealing with the cultural rot of letting in migrants who can't or won't assimilate and wish to do us harm. That is why Trump's simple assertion that we should only let in people "who loves us" is so powerful.
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  #67  
Old 03-08-17, 06:35 PM
eastisbest eastisbest is offline
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Originally Posted by lotr10 View Post
Great post MoeDude. I just don't get the folks who are against the simple steps Trump is taking here? Their motivations are murky to me.
The 9/11 attackers were from Saudi. Not banned. Your own motivations should seem a bit murky to you if you think that was a good post. Dearborn, half of it anyhow, loves Trump. Dearborn is full of self-made small business people who look forward to what a biz prez will bring.

Doesn't fit your bigotries does it?
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  #68  
Old 03-08-17, 06:51 PM
lotr10 lotr10 is online now
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Originally Posted by eastisbest View Post
The 9/11 attackers were from Saudi. Not banned. Your own motivations should seem a bit murky to you if you think that was a good post. Dearborn, half of it anyhow, loves Trump. Dearborn is full of self-made small business people who look forward to what a biz prez will bring.

Doesn't fit your bigotries does it?
Yes they were from Saudi Arabia and if you had been paying attention you would know that SA & the US have worked very hard to make sure that it never happens again. That is why SA is NOT on the list. But what 9/11 did show was that people who hate this country can use the immigration/VISA system to enter and then plot and execute a mass killing of 3,000 Americans. Do you want to see if we can let folks in that will kill 300,000 the next time.

And I see you can't articulate a cogent point against the Trump plan so you have resorted to slinging accusations of "bigotry" around. Clear sign that you're losing the argument.

Funny that you bring up the Muslim migrants and their descendants in Michigan - great people who have largely assimilated and love America. But they were largely Lebanese right? The Lebanese have a track record of successful assimilation into the west (in addition to the US, Canada & Australia have a good history). Lebanon has always been a more advanced, cosmopolitan outpost of the Islamic world sitting as it does on the coast of the Mediterranean sea. It also didn't hurt that many of these immigrants had skills or were professionals.

But if you think 3rd world, impoverished folks from large swathes of the Middle East, North Africa & West Asia are of the same "caliber" of migrant as the largely Lebanese migration into Michigan decades ago then you are kidding yourself.
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  #69  
Old 03-08-17, 07:53 PM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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Originally Posted by lotr10 View Post
Origin is a huge deal, yes? I mean a POTUS can't use an EO to cancel a law passed via legislation but can cancel an EO executed by a previous POTUS. Right?

As for the original stay it was weak but then again the 9th circuit court is pretty famous for getting it wrong. But I'm surprised that a guy that tells us he's a libertarian (do I have that right?) is so quick to put his faith in the least democratic part of our republic - the judiciary.


You just outed a troll
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  #70  
Old 03-08-17, 08:01 PM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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Originally Posted by lotr10 View Post
Yes they were from Saudi Arabia and if you had been paying attention you would know that SA & the US have worked very hard to make sure that it never happens again. That is why SA is NOT on the list. But what 9/11 did show was that people who hate this country can use the immigration/VISA system to enter and then plot and execute a mass killing of 3,000 Americans. Do you want to see if we can let folks in that will kill 300,000 the next time.

And I see you can't articulate a cogent point against the Trump plan so you have resorted to slinging accusations of "bigotry" around. Clear sign that you're losing the argument.

Funny that you bring up the Muslim migrants and their descendants in Michigan - great people who have largely assimilated and love America. But they were largely Lebanese right? The Lebanese have a track record of successful assimilation into the west (in addition to the US, Canada & Australia have a good history). Lebanon has always been a more advanced, cosmopolitan outpost of the Islamic world sitting as it does on the coast of the Mediterranean sea. It also didn't hurt that many of these immigrants had skills or were professionals.

But if you think 3rd world, impoverished folks from large swathes of the Middle East, North Africa & West Asia are of the same "caliber" of migrant as the largely Lebanese migration into Michigan decades ago then you are kidding yourself.
This, this, and especially this.

It is pretty funny to me that the great deflector was only willing to concern himself with the first line of MD's post and yet scolded your approval that focused on the balance of that post. Typical.

Last edited by cabezadecaballo; 03-08-17 at 08:11 PM.
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  #71  
Old 03-08-17, 09:05 PM
TylerDurden TylerDurden is offline
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Originally Posted by lotr10 View Post
Yes they were from Saudi Arabia and if you had been paying attention you would know that SA & the US have worked very hard to make sure that it never happens again. That is why SA is NOT on the list.
Is that why they're not on the list? It has nothing to do with money or power? Has Saudia Arabia recently stopped teaching and exporting what is probably the most extremist version of Islam?
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  #72  
Old 03-08-17, 09:16 PM
JediMaster JediMaster is offline
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Originally Posted by TylerDurden View Post
Is that why they're not on the list? It has nothing to do with money or power? Has Saudia Arabia recently stopped teaching and exporting what is probably the most extremist version of Islam?
I'm confused as to what you're arguing here; are you upset that not enough Muslim-majority countries are included on the list? (You might have a solid case there) Or are you more upset that our government has certain levels of expectations that must be met in order to accommodate refugees and new visa-applicants, and once a Muslim-majority country agrees to meet those expectations, they are then allowed to resume "business" of exporting people we actually will allow or "tolerate" living in America? FYI, all Muslim-majority nations harbor extreme Islam ideology.
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  #73  
Old 03-08-17, 09:20 PM
TylerDurden TylerDurden is offline
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Originally Posted by JediMaster View Post
I'm confused as to what you're arguing here; are you upset that not enough Muslim-majority countries are included on the list? (You might have a solid case there) Or are you upset that our government has certain levels of expectations that must be met in order to accommodate refugees and new visa-applicants, and once a Muslim-majority country agrees to meet those expectations, they are then allowed to resume "business" of exporting people we actually will allow or "tolerate" living in America?
I'm saying if there's going to be a ban on certain countries, leaving off Saudi Arabia makes no sense. And by makes no sense, I mean it doesn't make sense if the goal is to prevent future terrorists attacks. I can think of a couple ways it does make sense.
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  #74  
Old 03-08-17, 09:31 PM
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Originally Posted by TylerDurden View Post
Is that why they're not on the list? It has nothing to do with money or power? Has Saudia Arabia recently stopped teaching and exporting what is probably the most extremist version of Islam?
I suspect that in the eyes of the Trump administration it has nothing to do with "power & money" and everything to do with the fact that on balance the Saudi's are 'allies" of ours in the Middle East and will be a key to any hope of resolving the Israeli/Arab conflict. In addition, I suspect that since 9/11 the American and Saudi intelligence services have been cooperating very closely on all things terrorism related.

And your point that the Saudi export of radical Wahhabi Islam is a problem is true. But that's there business much like we export "freedom " & "capitalism". And while I think the Saudi support of Wahhabism is repulsive as long as we have strict border controls and don't admit them into our country we'll be okay.
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  #75  
Old 03-08-17, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by lotr10 View Post
I suspect that in the eyes of the Trump administration it has nothing to do with "power & money" and everything to do with the fact that on balance the Saudi's are 'allies" of ours in the Middle East and will be a key to any hope of resolving the Israeli/Arab conflict. In addition, I suspect that since 9/11 the American and Saudi intelligence services have been cooperating very closely on all things terrorism related.

And your point that the Saudi export of radical Wahhabi Islam is a problem is true. But that's there business much like we export "freedom " & "capitalism". And while I think the Saudi support of Wahhabism is repulsive as long as we have strict border controls and don't admit them into our country we'll be okay.
We don't export freedom or capitalism. If you're worried about extremist Islam, which you clearly are, Saudi Arabia not being on that list should bother you. You're defending it though which I don't find surprising.
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  #76  
Old 03-08-17, 09:42 PM
JediMaster JediMaster is offline
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Originally Posted by TylerDurden View Post
I'm saying if there's going to be a ban on certain countries, leaving off Saudi Arabia makes no sense. And by makes no sense, I mean it doesn't make sense if the goal is to prevent future terrorists attacks. I can think of a couple ways it does make sense.
Saudi Arabia, though infested by radicals as you implicitly concede, has the largest military force in the Muslim world. It makes perfect sense to maintain a certain level of diplomacy and strategy-making with one of the only countries in the region we still have solid relations with, given that that country has also been vocal in assisting the U.S. in setting up safe zones for refugees, something that the other countries on the list have not been able or can't be able to accomplish.
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  #77  
Old 03-08-17, 09:44 PM
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Originally Posted by TylerDurden View Post
We don't export freedom or capitalism. If you're worried about extremist Islam, which you clearly are, Saudi Arabia not being on that list should bother you. You're defending it though I don't find surprising.
We export an American culture wherever we can. The Saudi's export their goofy Muslim culture wherever they can. It's up to the people on the receiving end to either accept or reject what's being offered.

Yes I am worried about the threat to the USA of "extremist Islam" but on a list of priorities the "Saudi threat" is way down the list becasue I'm confident we and the Saudi's have put in place safeguards to prevent another 9/11. And I've learned to never let "perfect" be the enemy of "good" and the current Trump EO, while not perfect is good enough.
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  #78  
Old 03-08-17, 09:46 PM
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Originally Posted by JediMaster View Post
Saudi Arabia, though infested by radicals as you implicitly concede, has the largest military force in the Muslim world. It makes perfect sense to maintain a certain level of diplomacy and strategy-making with one of the only countries in the region we still have solid relations with, given that that country has also been vocal in assisting the U.S. in setting up safe zones for refugees, something that the other countries on the list have not been able or can't be able to accomplish.
You completely ignored my point and instead pointed to part of the reason why they weren't on the list. If the concern is truly radical Muslims getting into this country, Saudi Arabia has to be on that list.
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  #79  
Old 03-08-17, 09:51 PM
TylerDurden TylerDurden is offline
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Originally Posted by lotr10 View Post
We export an American culture wherever we can. The Saudi's export their goofy Muslim culture wherever they can. It's up to the people on the receiving end to either accept or reject what's being offered.
So when we attack countries or prop up dictators or royal families because they're our pal, you're claiming that's a form of exporting freedom and capitalism?

Quote:
Yes I am worried about the threat to the USA of "extremist Islam" but on a list of priorities the "Saudi threat" is way down the list becasue I'm confident we and the Saudi's have put in place safeguards to prevent another 9/11. And I've learned to never let "perfect" be the enemy of "good" and the current Trump EO, while not perfect is good enough.
So the country that has the history of producing the most deaths to US citizens due to terrorism, and the one that is still by many accounts teaching the most radical form of Islam, is way down on your list? Makes no sense no matter how much you want to try to justify it.
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  #80  
Old 03-08-17, 09:52 PM
lotr10 lotr10 is online now
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Originally Posted by JediMaster View Post
Saudi Arabia, though infested by radicals as you implicitly concede, has the largest military force in the Muslim world. It makes perfect sense to maintain a certain level of diplomacy and strategy-making with one of the only countries in the region we still have solid relations with, given that that country has also been vocal in assisting the U.S. in setting up safe zones for refugees, something that the other countries on the list have not been able or can't be able to accomplish.
TD is playing the "gotcha game" that the left indulges in becasue they can't actually argue their positions. They pore over every word a conservative writes in the hopes of finding some inconsistency and then they pounce and throw it back at the writer. Of course in almost all cases it's not an "inconsistency" they have found but rather a degree of nuance that's being introduced into the discussion.

I'm very skeptical of TD's self declared "libertarian" status as he seems to practice some of Saul Alinsky's classic rules for radicals techniques. Specifically rule #4 which is a classic "gotcha" approach:

“Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules.”

If you can catch folks in a "contradiction" you can zero in on that and discredit the rest of what they said. It's a very effective and smart technique.
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  #81  
Old 03-08-17, 09:58 PM
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Originally Posted by TylerDurden View Post
So when we attack countries or prop up dictators or royal families because they're our pal, you're claiming that's a form of exporting freedom and capitalism?



So the country that has the history of producing the most deaths to US citizens due to terrorism, and the one that is still by many accounts teaching the most radical form of Islam, is way down on your list? Makes no sense no matter how much you want to try to justify it.
No in most cases attaching countries is a mistake which is one of the things I like about Trump and his non-interventionist policies. I assume you like that about Trump to right?

As for "propping up dictators and royal families" well we do live in the real world. So if it's in our interest to prop up a dictatorship than so be it. That has nothing to do with the relentless export of American cultural norms & practices.

As for your last point, NEVER, EVER FIGHT THE LAST WAR you are doomed to failure. If we focus on Saudi Arabia we'll miss the next threat.
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  #82  
Old 03-08-17, 10:00 PM
TylerDurden TylerDurden is offline
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Originally Posted by lotr10 View Post
TD is playing the "gotcha game" that the left indulges in becasue they can't actually argue their positions. They pore over every word a conservative writes in the hopes of finding some inconsistency and then they pounce and throw it back at the writer. Of course in almost all cases it's not an "inconsistency" they have found but rather a degree of nuance that's being introduced into the discussion.

I'm very skeptical of TD's self declared "libertarian" status as he seems to practice some of Saul Alinsky's classic rules for radicals techniques. Specifically rule #4 which is a classic "gotcha" approach:

“Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules.”

If you can catch folks in a "contradiction" you can zero in on that and discredit the rest of what they said. It's a very effective and smart technique.
Whatever. My political beliefs have been on display on here for years. Just keep demonstrating your rightwing bias. The fact remains, Saudi Arabia not being on this ban list is a ridiculous omission. Downplay and deflect all you want, it's the truth.
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  #83  
Old 03-08-17, 10:07 PM
TylerDurden TylerDurden is offline
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Originally Posted by lotr10 View Post
No in most cases attaching countries is a mistake which is one of the things I like about Trump and his non-interventionist policies. I assume you like that about Trump to right?
I don't know that about Trump. In fact, his wanting to increase military funding by billions would make me think the opposite.

Quote:
As for "propping up dictators and royal families" well we do live in the real world. So if it's in our interest to prop up a dictatorship than so be it. That has nothing to do with the relentless export of American cultural norms & practices.
Well that's fine, but then don't claim we're exporting freedom and capitalism. To do so is just plain BS.

Quote:
As for your last point, NEVER, EVER FIGHT THE LAST WAR you are doomed to failure. If we focus on Saudi Arabia we'll miss the next threat.
This is ridiculous.
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  #84  
Old 03-08-17, 10:24 PM
TylerDurden TylerDurden is offline
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Originally Posted by lotr10 View Post
I'm very skeptical of TD's self declared "libertarian" status as he seems to practice some of Saul Alinsky's classic rules for radicals techniques. Specifically rule #4 which is a classic "gotcha" approach:

“Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules.”

If you can catch folks in a "contradiction" you can zero in on that and discredit the rest of what they said. It's a very effective and smart technique.
On a side note, I've never heard of Saul Alinsky outside of you bringing him up. I think that's odd considering you've determined I'm on the left and engaging in a type of argument he's apparently taught me, yet you're the one familiar with him. Also, I'm sure you've never engaged a liberal on this board regarding a point of theirs that was a "contradiction," but I guess in the case of you doing it, it was probably actually a contradiction.
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  #85  
Old 03-08-17, 10:27 PM
JediMaster JediMaster is offline
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Originally Posted by TylerDurden View Post
Whatever. My political beliefs have been on display on here for years. Just keep demonstrating your rightwing bias. The fact remains, Saudi Arabia not being on this ban list is a ridiculous omission. Downplay and deflect all you want, it's the truth.
Okay, say Saudi Arabia gets put on the ban list, which will in turn force them to not cooperate with America or the West in fighting jihadists on a united front, and also prohibit the establishment of the talked about safe zones. So have ZERO diplomatic relations with capable countries in the region, is that what you want?
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  #86  
Old 03-08-17, 10:30 PM
TylerDurden TylerDurden is offline
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Originally Posted by JediMaster View Post
Okay, say Saudi Arabia gets put on the ban list, which will in turn force them to not cooperate with America or the West in fighting jihadists on a united front, and also prohibit the establishment of the talked about safe zones. So have ZERO diplomatic relations with capable countries in the region, is that what you want?
If Saudi Arabia is so on board with us, why are they responsible for one of the most radical teachings of Islam?
What I want is a removal of our presence in that region. I don't want us picking out bad guys and propping up good guys. That place is a mess and we need out.
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  #87  
Old 03-08-17, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by TylerDurden View Post
If Saudi Arabia is so on board with us, why are they responsible for one of the most radical teachings of Islam?
What I want is a removal of our presence in that region. I don't want us picking out bad guys and propping up good guys. That place is a mess and we need out.
Totally reasonable and agreeable, however as we all saw what happened the last time we tried pulling out before the region was able to secure itself independently from jihad extremism. I mentioned on another thread, WWIII will be fought pitting extreme Islam against the rest of the world.
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  #88  
Old 03-08-17, 10:47 PM
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Totally reasonable and agreeable, however as we all saw what happened the last time we tried pulling out before the region was able to secure itself independently from jihad extremism.
I'm not sure what you're talking about but I'm sure there are extremist all over that region. If they're not fighting us they'd be more than happy to fight each other I bet.

Quote:
I mentioned on another thread, WWIII will be fought pitting extreme Islam against the rest of the world.
The rest of the world can have fun with that, the war you're suggesting won't take place in our region in our lifetime, or any time close.
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  #89  
Old 03-08-17, 10:57 PM
JediMaster JediMaster is offline
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Originally Posted by TylerDurden View Post
I'm not sure what you're talking about but I'm sure there are extremist all over that region. If they're not fighting us they'd be more than happy to fight each other I bet.



The rest of the world can have fun with that, the war you're suggesting won't take place in our region in our lifetime, or any time close.
Okay, Woodrow Wilson
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  #90  
Old 03-08-17, 10:59 PM
TylerDurden TylerDurden is offline
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Join Date: 10-12-01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JediMaster View Post
Okay, Woodrow Wilson
Huh? Wilson was a progressive, and as such, was a fan of the exact opposite of what I'm in favor of.
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