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  #1  
Old 03-06-17, 12:15 PM
BlueJayFan BlueJayFan is offline
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Muslim Ban: Round 2

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President Trump signed a new travel ban Monday that administration officials said they hope will end legal challenges over the matter by imposing a 90-day ban on the issuance of new visas for citizens of six majority-Muslim nations, authorities said.

In addition, the nation’s refugee program will be suspended for 120 days, and it will not accept more than 50,000 refugees in a year, down from the 110,000 cap set by the Obama administration.

Trump signed the new ban out of public view, according to White House officials. The order will not take effect until March 16, officials said.

The new guidelines name six of the seven countries included in the first executive order but leave out Iraq. That nation will increase cooperation with the United States on additional security vetting under separate negotiations and its citizens are not subject to the new order, according to a fact sheet provided by the administration.

A Department of Homeland official, speaking on the condition of anonymity on a call with reporters, said Iraq was “treated differently” in part because the country had agreed to “timely repatriation” of their citizens if they were ordered deported from the United States.

The new order provides other exceptions not contained explicitly in previous versions: for travelers from those countries who are legal permanent residents of the United States, dual nationals who use a passport from another country and those who have been granted asylum or refugee status. Anyone who holds a visa now should be able to get into the country without any problems, though those whose visas expire will have to reapply, officials said.

Officials also attempted to lay out a more robust national security justification for the order, claiming that it was needed because 300 people who entered the country as refugees were the subject of counterterrorism investigations.

The officials, though, declined to say from which countries those people came, and they declined to detail the people’s current immigration status.

A Department of Homeland Security report assessing the terrorist threat posed by people from the seven countries covered by President Trump’s original travel ban had cast doubt on the necessity of the executive order, concluding that citizenship was an “unreliable” threat indicator and that people from the affected countries have rarely been implicated in U.S.-based terrorism.

The Department of Homeland Security official, speaking on the condition of anonymity, criticized the report as being incomplete and not vetted with other agencies, and he also asserted the administration should not be pressed by the judiciary to unveil sensitive national security details to justify the ban.

“This is not something that the Department of Justice should have to represent to a federal-district court judge,” the official said.


The order represents an attempt by the Trump administration to tighten security requirements for travelers from nations that officials said represent a terrorism threat. A more sweeping attempt in January provoked mass protests across the country as travelers en route to the United States were detained at airports after the surprise order was announced. The State Department had provisionally revoked tens of thousands of visas all at once.

Officials sought to dismiss the idea that there would be any confusion surrounding the implementation of the new order. Officials said they delayed implementation so the government could go through the appropriate legal processes and ensure that no government employee would face “legal jeopardy” for enforcing the order.

“You should not see any chaos, so to speak, or alleged chaos, at airports. There aren’t going to be folks stopped tonight from coming into the country because of this executive order. If they are, it’s pursuant to our ordinary screening procedures,” the Department of Homeland Security official said. “We’re going to have a very smooth implementation period.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...=.be530707200e
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  #2  
Old 03-06-17, 12:20 PM
Uncle Ted Uncle Ted is offline
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Sweet.
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  #3  
Old 03-06-17, 12:26 PM
Jim Lahey Jim Lahey is offline
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What are you thoughts on the matter, BJF? I like what they're doing with Iraq, I don't think that is unreasonable at all.
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  #4  
Old 03-06-17, 12:45 PM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Looks good. Sounds like it was well thought out and addresses some of the key problems we face. Well done Mr. President.
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  #5  
Old 03-06-17, 12:58 PM
BGFalcons82 BGFalcons82 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lotr10 View Post
Looks good. Sounds like it was well thought out and addresses some of the key problems we face. Well done Mr. President.
Careful, now. We have to wait until the West Coast Presidents, wearing black robes in Washington state and the 9th Circus, chime in because, well, you know, they get their jollies in stopping the Commander-In-Chief from being the... umm... Commander-In-Chief.
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  #6  
Old 03-06-17, 01:00 PM
TylerDurden TylerDurden is offline
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Originally Posted by BGFalcons82 View Post
Careful, now. We have to wait until the West Coast Presidents, wearing black robes in Washington state and the 9th Circus, chime in because, well, you know, they get their jollies in stopping the Commander-In-Chief from being the... umm... Commander-In-Chief.
Isn't that kind of their job?
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  #7  
Old 03-06-17, 01:02 PM
chs1971 chs1971 is offline
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Again, not a ban on Muslims.

Cannot have a conversation with people who refuse to be honest.
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  #8  
Old 03-06-17, 01:05 PM
BGFalcons82 BGFalcons82 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TylerDurden View Post
Isn't that kind of their job?
Nope. Separation of Powers. It's in the document Leftists abhor.

The C-I-C has enumerated duties to protect the country, not the robed-gangs.
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  #9  
Old 03-06-17, 01:09 PM
TylerDurden TylerDurden is offline
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Originally Posted by BGFalcons82 View Post
Nope. Separation of Powers. It's in the document Leftists abhor.

The C-I-C has enumerated duties to protect the country, not the robed-gangs.
Apparently you're not a fan either, as you don't think the judicial branch has the authority, or should rule on the Constitutionality of a law.
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  #10  
Old 03-06-17, 01:23 PM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TylerDurden View Post
Isn't that kind of their job?
Not really, it seems like a clear case of judicial overreach to me.

If they shoot this order down Trump should simply ignore the judge & court and proceed. Let the SCOTUS settle it after we get the new guy on board.
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  #11  
Old 03-06-17, 01:27 PM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TylerDurden View Post
Apparently you're not a fan either, as you don't think the judicial branch has the authority, or should rule on the Constitutionality of a law.
It's not a "law" it's an executive order. They are somewhat different. Trump is reacting to existing threats in his constitutional capacity of POTUS. It is not up to a judge and appeals court to undo this EO unless there is compelling evidence the constitution is being violated. The first "stay" on Trump's EO stretched this to nearly the breaking point. A second such "stay" on the revised EO would constitute an act of bad faith on the part of the judge & 9th court in the face of a clear & present danger to the USA and should be ignored by Trump.
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  #12  
Old 03-06-17, 01:29 PM
bigkat bigkat is offline
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Originally Posted by BlueJayFan View Post


by the way NOT a Muslim ban
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  #13  
Old 03-06-17, 01:30 PM
BGFalcons82 BGFalcons82 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TylerDurden View Post
Apparently you're not a fan either, as you don't think the judicial branch has the authority, or should rule on the Constitutionality of a law.
I'm a huge fan! The West Coast Presidents over-stepped their bounds. I'm certain, however, that they'll take another swing at today's EO. They will search the fruited plain for one aggrieved person and then give that person an all expenses paid vacation to stay on the left coast and whine about how evil Trump is.

Were you equally upset when Chief Justice Roberts re-wrote the Affordable (hahahahaha) Care Law from what was duly passed and signed?
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  #14  
Old 03-06-17, 02:15 PM
TylerDurden TylerDurden is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lotr10 View Post
It's not a "law" it's an executive order. They are somewhat different.
There really only differ in origin.

Quote:
Trump is reacting to existing threats in his constitutional capacity of POTUS. It is not up to a judge and appeals court to undo this EO unless there is compelling evidence the constitution is being violated. The first "stay" on Trump's EO stretched this to nearly the breaking point. A second such "stay" on the revised EO would constitute an act of bad faith on the part of the judge & 9th court in the face of a clear & present danger to the USA and should be ignored by Trump.
If the original stay was so flimsy, why exactly are we dealing with a second executive order?
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  #15  
Old 03-06-17, 02:21 PM
TylerDurden TylerDurden is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BGFalcons82 View Post
I'm a huge fan! The West Coast Presidents over-stepped their bounds. I'm certain, however, that they'll take another swing at today's EO. They will search the fruited plain for one aggrieved person and then give that person an all expenses paid vacation to stay on the left coast and whine about how evil Trump is.
If you're such a fan, can you point to the part that states that executive orders aren't subject to the same checks and balance from the judicial as every other law?

Quote:
Were you equally upset when Chief Justice Roberts re-wrote the Affordable (hahahahaha) Care Law from what was duly passed and signed?
I wasn't a fan of where Roberts sides on any of his rulings regarding that act.
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  #16  
Old 03-06-17, 06:31 PM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TylerDurden View Post
There really only differ in origin.



If the original stay was so flimsy, why exactly are we dealing with a second executive order?
Origin is a huge deal, yes? I mean a POTUS can't use an EO to cancel a law passed via legislation but can cancel an EO executed by a previous POTUS. Right?

As for the original stay it was weak but then again the 9th circuit court is pretty famous for getting it wrong. But I'm surprised that a guy that tells us he's a libertarian (do I have that right?) is so quick to put his faith in the least democratic part of our republic - the judiciary.
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  #17  
Old 03-06-17, 06:43 PM
TylerDurden TylerDurden is offline
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Originally Posted by lotr10 View Post
Origin is a huge deal, yes? I mean a POTUS can't use an EO to cancel a law passed via legislation but can cancel an EO executed by a previous POTUS. Right?
What's that have to do with whether an executive order has to be Constitutional?

Quote:
As for the original stay it was weak but then again the 9th circuit court is pretty famous for getting it wrong. But I'm surprised that a guy that tells us he's a libertarian (do I have that right?) is so quick to put his faith in the least democratic part of our republic - the judiciary.
I'm not sure what you're talking about. You're trying to change the issue at hand here because you don't like how the court ruled. I never offered an opinion on the ruling or expressed faith in the courts. What I took issue with was you two's apparent belief that the court lacked the authority to make their ruling.

Again, why the new executive order?
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  #18  
Old 03-06-17, 07:11 PM
JediMaster JediMaster is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TylerDurden View Post
What's that have to do with whether an executive order has to be Constitutional?



I'm not sure what you're talking about. You're trying to change the issue at hand here because you don't like how the court ruled. I never offered an opinion on the ruling or expressed faith in the courts. What I took issue with was you two's apparent belief that the court lacked the authority to make their ruling.

Again, why the new executive order?
Because the first one is inactive as of this moment and Donald actually wants to try and save American lives and actually put America's interests ahead of anyone else's?
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  #19  
Old 03-06-17, 07:11 PM
Gulliotine Gulliotine is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TylerDurden View Post
What I took issue with was you two's apparent belief that the court lacked the authority to make their ruling.
It's not that they don't have the authority, it's that they abused their authority. Trump could have won on the first go around, but not with the inevitable 4-4 political decision from the Supremes.

You act like the courts aren't making political decisions. That's silly.
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  #20  
Old 03-06-17, 07:21 PM
TylerDurden TylerDurden is offline
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Originally Posted by JediMaster View Post
Because the first one is inactive as of this moment and Donald actually wants to try and save American lives and actually put America's interests ahead of anyone else's?
I mean, I don't have an issue with properly vetting immigrants, but you guys act like Americans are dying as we speak due to immigration from Muslim countries.
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  #21  
Old 03-06-17, 07:23 PM
TylerDurden TylerDurden is offline
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Originally Posted by Gulliotine View Post
It's not that they don't have the authority, it's that they abused their authority. Trump could have won on the first go around, but not with the inevitable 4-4 political decision from the Supremes.
So then you agree with me, and disagree with falcon that is it the job of the judicial branch to rule on issues like this? You just don't agree with the ruling.

Quote:
You act like the courts aren't making political decisions. That's silly.
The only thing I'm "acting like" is that the courts do indeed have the authority to make the ruling they did.
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  #22  
Old 03-06-17, 07:31 PM
JediMaster JediMaster is online now
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Originally Posted by TylerDurden View Post
I mean, I don't have an issue with properly vetting immigrants, but you guys act like Americans are dying as we speak due to immigration from Muslim countries.
It's really not about that at all. I think it's fair to say that ZERO true Americans wish to see a death or terror attack at the hands of somebody that isn't supposed to be here. As the title of this thread tries to put it, the "Muslim Ban" is not really about ALL Muslims, just the ones who want to do us harm or who are unwilling to change their culture of extremism (not necessarily in terror, but social/lawful issues). I'd much rather it be labeled by the left as the "Muslim Extremism Ban" as that is the WHOLE POINT of the EO and that way more people would know what the real intentions are here. It's really not that complicated but for some reason a large contingency here still doesn't understand the difference between Islam and extremism, just like that same group absolutely refuses to comprehend the difference between legal and illegal immigration and what we want to try to put a curb to.
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  #23  
Old 03-06-17, 07:40 PM
eastisbest eastisbest is offline
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Originally Posted by TylerDurden View Post
There really only differ in origin.



If the original stay was so flimsy, why exactly are we dealing with a second executive order?
Because the executive modified it's position based upon improved understanding? That's rather refreshing wouldn't you say? As opposed to the normal process of defend and deny.

The original EO was as promised in campaign. Agree or disagree with it, that's also refreshing.

Executive even put out a statement that the original EO was all-encompassing (well, minus a few friends) in order to give the new administration time to get a handle on the situation in a way that would prevent the status quo or a less all-encompassing EO from being taken advantage of by those that knew time was running out. As his nearly first order of business, those expecting SOP, didn't have time to flood the gates.


The Executive wanted to stop the process until they could get a better feel. Gain control until a situation is understood as opposed to letting it run rampant and dealing with it piecemeal?

Very much a business as opposed to political approach. Gain a handle then try and determine best policy.
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  #24  
Old 03-06-17, 07:56 PM
TylerDurden TylerDurden is offline
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Originally Posted by eastisbest View Post
Because the executive modified it's position based upon improved understanding? That's rather refreshing wouldn't you say? As opposed to the normal process of defend and deny.
That didn't address the question I asked.

Quote:
The original EO was as promised in campaign. Agree or disagree with it, that's also refreshing.

Executive even put out a statement that the original EO was all-encompassing (well, minus a few friends) in order to give the new administration time to get a handle on the situation in a way that would prevent the status quo or a less all-encompassing EO from being taken advantage of by those that knew time was running out. As his nearly first order of business, those expecting SOP, didn't have time to flood the gates.


The Executive wanted to stop the process until they could get a better feel. Gain control until a situation is understood as opposed to letting it run rampant and dealing with it piecemeal?
Is it your opinion that immigration was out of control, with no oversight or handle on the situation?

Quote:
Very much a business as opposed to political approach. Gain a handle then try and determine best policy.
Yeah, not really how a business would operate but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
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  #25  
Old 03-06-17, 08:46 PM
Gulliotine Gulliotine is offline
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Originally Posted by TylerDurden View Post
So then you agree with me, and disagree with falcon that is it the job of the judicial branch to rule on issues like this? You just don't agree with the ruling.
I must have missed the part where BG said they didn't have the authority. I agree with him that ruling was political, and stretched the boundaries of their power.

You seem real keen on editing other's posts, but on this subject that's all you're offering.

How about asking you a question? Do you agree with the 9th Circus ruling?
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  #26  
Old 03-06-17, 08:52 PM
TylerDurden TylerDurden is offline
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Originally Posted by Gulliotine View Post
I must have missed the part where BG said they didn't have the authority. I agree with him that ruling was political, and stretched the boundaries of their power.
You apparently did.

Quote:
You seem real keen on editing other's posts, but on this subject that's all you're offering.
Nope, don't edit posts that much at all.

Quote:
How about asking you a question? Do you agree with the 9th Circus ruling?
I've already said I have no opinion on the ruling, but they definitely had the authority to make the ruling.
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  #27  
Old 03-06-17, 09:13 PM
Gulliotine Gulliotine is offline
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Originally Posted by TylerDurden View Post
I've already said I have no opinion on the ruling, but they definitely had the authority to make the ruling.
Then you don't really have anything to say...and you only offer your expertise as the political board editor in chief?

They have the authority, and BG agrees with that. I guess if his point about over-reach is to stand, he'll have to go back and edit his posts per your marking up.

If I was BG I wouldn't bother. Anyone with a brain knew what he was talking about.
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Old 03-06-17, 09:19 PM
TylerDurden TylerDurden is offline
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Originally Posted by Gulliotine View Post
Then you don't really have anything to say...and you only offer your expertise as the political board editor in chief?

They have the authority, and BG agrees with that. I guess if his point about over-reach is to stand, he'll have to go back and edit his posts per your marking up.

If I was BG I wouldn't bother. Anyone with a brain knew what he was talking about.
He didn't disagree with that, he said it wasn't their job. He even cited separations of powers.
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  #29  
Old 03-06-17, 09:20 PM
eastisbest eastisbest is offline
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Originally Posted by TylerDurden View Post
That didn't address the question I asked.
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Originally Posted by TylerDurden View Post
There really only differ in origin. ...
If the original stay was so flimsy, why exactly are we dealing with a second executive order?
Quote:
Originally Posted by eastisbest View Post
Because the executive modified it's position based upon improved understanding?
Clearly it does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TylerDurden View Post
Is it your opinion that immigration was out of control, with no oversight or handle on the situation?
MY opinion on immigration wasn't and isn't relevant to your original question, which was about the Executive's motives.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TylerDurden View Post
Yeah, not really how a business would operate but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
Apparently. You've probably more experience with businesses that, "call this meeting to chaos."
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Old 03-06-17, 09:26 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by TylerDurden View Post
I mean, I don't have an issue with properly vetting immigrants, but you guys act like Americans are dying as we speak due to immigration from Muslim countries.
Do we need to wait for the first one to happen and then react?

And this ban also limits visas, right? The 9/11 attackers came in on visas didn't they?
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