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  #91  
Old 03-11-17, 12:03 PM
Lakeshore5 Lakeshore5 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IVCguy View Post
I don't think it is a bad thing. This is the USA - land of the free. If you want your kid to go to school over there, then take him over there - and I don't really care what your reasons are.

I'd rather everything be open and transparent. If you have a 6'10" athletic kid who wants to go to City HS because he can get great coaching, win a state title, and play with some of his AAU friends, then you should be able to transfer him without restriction. The OHSAA was trying to regulate the wrong thing IMO. They were focused on the reasons for the transfer when they should have been focused on regulating recruiting.

But you can even get out of regulating any of it, IF teams are slotted for division assignment based on their TALENT (if significantly affected by transfers), not their enrollment. Then it doesn't matter who transfers where or who is recruiting. VASJ gets 5 of the best AAU players in Cle to enroll, they get put into D1, and all is well. But competitive imbalance is caused when they are playing with that talent level in the lower divisions.
Great point, Hiland should've been in D1 as well when they were running through D4 those years with Seger and Kaufman.
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  #92  
Old 03-11-17, 12:13 PM
cvctrackfan cvctrackfan is offline
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Also CVCA and University. That's a large league.
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  #93  
Old 03-16-17, 06:15 AM
Bball216 Bball216 is offline
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Seems like these highly ranked teams with gaudy records are dropping like flys to teams that have challenged themselves by playing a tough schedule in preparation for The tourney. It's not a coincidence.
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  #94  
Old 03-16-17, 07:55 AM
High-school BB fan High-school BB fan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bball216 View Post
Seems like these highly ranked teams with gaudy records are dropping like flys to teams that have challenged themselves by playing a tough schedule in preparation for The tourney. It's not a coincidence.
Your post seems to suggest, if these teams from small town America would just schedule tougher opponents that would make up for the talent gap that is as wide as the Atlantic Ocean.

Sorry, no Scheduling will overcome the Urban Talent Pool.
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  #95  
Old 03-16-17, 08:10 AM
ideliver ideliver is offline
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Lack of Competitive Balance or Lack of Quality Competition ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by High-school BB fan View Post
Your post seems to suggest, if these teams from small town America would just schedule tougher opponents that would make up for the talent gap that is as wide as the Atlantic Ocean.



Sorry, no Scheduling will overcome the Urban Talent Pool.


LaBrae is in Warren and won't play Harding, won't play Ursuline, won't play Boardman, and won't even play little JFK.

No surprise their "perfect" season was ruined by a Garfield...a district champion that lost by 40 (could have been any number VASJ wanted.)

The same could be said for McDonald. The trapping "pressure" defense that they run, works well against smaller, slower teams...JFK had little trouble with it. CCA would have had little trouble with it too.

The competition is there...coaches just got to want to play against it and get better. A 25-2 record is meaningless if you can't even get to a regional championship, let alone win your district.
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  #96  
Old 03-16-17, 10:54 AM
Bball216 Bball216 is offline
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BBfan - YES IT CAN. You cannot just play one game to close the gap. You have to play up against bigger and badder schools year in and year out until your kids become accustomed to big crowds, elite talent and tough situations. That is how you forge a top program. You can't just play one game and say "See we lost by 40". Joe's lost on national TV by 30+ to the #1 team in the nation - so what. What possibly can a team in D3 throw at VASJ that they have not actually experienced ? NOTHING. Joe's pressed Garfield last night and they crapped themselves. They had not experienced that.

Do you realize that technically Joe's should not even be at regionals. Beachwood (a public school) had a great game plan and was not intimidated by Joe's because of the competition they have played over the year and was a missed layup at the buzzer away from stunning the Vikings. The packed into a tight zone and used ball movement and hot shooting to almost win a game they had no business winning. So don't tell me it can't be done. Beachwood executed a perfect inbound play, Joe's blew the defense and a kid missed a bunny - and that is a NOTHING special public school.

You can't expose kids for the first time to elite talent at districts or if your lucky regionals and expect them to perform.
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  #97  
Old 03-16-17, 12:36 PM
CoventryTrackXCguy CoventryTrackXCguy is offline
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I agree. The team im a fan of lost to SVSM last year big league. But we are trying to improve our schedule, we already got Ursuline and Cardinal Mooney. Unfortunately, our ptc metro competition is not in our control. But we can improve our out of league schedule. Ursuline and Mooney are a start. If I had my way, we'd schedule those two, Copley, Hoban, Alliance, Ellet or Buchtel, a federal league power or Massillon, and Tallmadge. Tough for our level, with the possibility for further toughening if we need it.

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  #98  
Old 03-16-17, 04:00 PM
Norton21 Norton21 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ideliver View Post
LaBrae is in Warren and won't play Harding, won't play Ursuline, won't play Boardman, and won't even play little JFK.

No surprise their "perfect" season was ruined by a Garfield...a district champion that lost by 40 (could have been any number VASJ wanted.)

The same could be said for McDonald. The trapping "pressure" defense that they run, works well against smaller, slower teams...JFK had little trouble with it. CCA would have had little trouble with it too.

The competition is there...coaches just got to want to play against it and get better. A 25-2 record is meaningless if you can't even get to a regional championship, let alone win your district.
Well I have to address this. You say Labrae won't play Harding? My question would be what would Harding get out of scheduling Labrae? It takes 2 schools to want to play each other. Last time they played was 1987 Harding had a state ranked team lost to Labrae and started a brawl. Labrae has played Ursuline 5 times in the last 7 years so they will play them. Besides this year Boardman has not been very good. They scheduled Poland who 9 out of 10 years is better. They schedule JFK in football which is their better sport so I find it hard to believe they won't play them in basketball. Would I have liked them to play a more difficult schedule absolutely. I said all year they needed tested and it never happened besides the last game against South Range and that includes Garfield the team that beat them in the tournament. With all the conference games and crossover games you have to play sometimes scheduling up isn't easy
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  #99  
Old 03-16-17, 04:27 PM
CatAlum CatAlum is offline
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You can work, work, work. You can play tough schedules, demand the most from your players. That will improve your chances. However, at the end of the day, if your center is 6'1" with average physical abilities, you will not be able to compete with a center who is 6'6" with very good physical abilities if he also worked and played against tough teams.

This stuff being spewed by this single VASJ fan is infantile and doesn't represent the views of other fans. Does VASJ work hard? Sure they do. In recent years, do they have almost unbeatable talent given the level that they compete at? Yes.

Has Garrettsville Garfield ever had someone play at Kansas or Northwestern? Have they had players who could have played at Kansas or Northwestern if Garfield's coach had just scheduled some tougher competition? DOUBTFUL.
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  #100  
Old 03-16-17, 04:38 PM
ideliver ideliver is offline
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Bothwell from CCA is unbelievable and is a clear D1 player with a great supporting cast. JFK won.

Heck, even LeBron's SVSM got beat one year in the playoffs...

This is a local sport's writers thoughts on the topic.

https://www.facebook.com/steveruman/...09417615860955
https://www.facebook.com/steveruman/...09417615860955
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  #101  
Old 03-16-17, 04:58 PM
Bennies'01 Bennies'01 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ideliver View Post
LaBrae is in Warren and won't play Harding, won't play Ursuline, won't play Boardman, and won't even play little JFK.

No surprise their "perfect" season was ruined by a Garfield...a district champion that lost by 40 (could have been any number VASJ wanted.)

The same could be said for McDonald. The trapping "pressure" defense that they run, works well against smaller, slower teams...JFK had little trouble with it. CCA would have had little trouble with it too.

The competition is there...coaches just got to want to play against it and get better. A 25-2 record is meaningless if you can't even get to a regional championship, let alone win your district.
They could play a few more of those teams, maybe rack up some losses and experience in the process, but that's not going to prepare them for the talent gap they face at the regional level against an urban private like VASJ that should not be in Division III.
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  #102  
Old 03-16-17, 05:18 PM
Bennies'01 Bennies'01 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bball216 View Post
BBfan - YES IT CAN. You cannot just play one game to close the gap. You have to play up against bigger and badder schools year in and year out until your kids become accustomed to big crowds, elite talent and tough situations. That is how you forge a top program. You can't just play one game and say "See we lost by 40". Joe's lost on national TV by 30+ to the #1 team in the nation - so what. What possibly can a team in D3 throw at VASJ that they have not actually experienced ? NOTHING. Joe's pressed Garfield last night and they crapped themselves. They had not experienced that.

Do you realize that technically Joe's should not even be at regionals. Beachwood (a public school) had a great game plan and was not intimidated by Joe's because of the competition they have played over the year and was a missed layup at the buzzer away from stunning the Vikings. The packed into a tight zone and used ball movement and hot shooting to almost win a game they had no business winning. So don't tell me it can't be done. Beachwood executed a perfect inbound play, Joe's blew the defense and a kid missed a bunny - and that is a NOTHING special public school.

You can't expose kids for the first time to elite talent at districts or if your lucky regionals and expect them to perform.
Beachwood is a second-ring public school in a large urban area that has the type of athletes that allows it to occasionally compete with VASJ.
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  #103  
Old 03-16-17, 05:22 PM
Bennies'01 Bennies'01 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ideliver View Post
Bothwell from CCA is unbelievable and is a clear D1 player with a great supporting cast. JFK won.

Heck, even LeBron's SVSM got beat one year in the playoffs...

This is a local sport's writers thoughts on the topic.
So what's the point here?
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  #104  
Old 03-16-17, 05:23 PM
Yappi Yappi is offline
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For those that believe this, do you think it applies to all other sports too?

Is facing 90MPH pitching going to make the average hitters better? Facing 300lb D1 defensive line recruits make the average QBs better? Average runners in the 100 meter versus state champions?

High School sports is too short of a season to make teams significantly better just by playing great teams. What you are really hoping for is that the kids coming in to the HS over the next few years will see the type of teams that you are playing and they will work that much harder. Maybe you will see fewer top level players leave your program for other programs. And if you are really lucky, a couple elite players that have no real connection to your school will now consider it as one of their destinations.

For this to work, you better have a supportive administration. Those first couple of seasons might be pretty rough.
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  #105  
Old 03-16-17, 05:42 PM
Bball216 Bball216 is offline
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CatAlum - how do you explain Mentor being state champs in D1 in 2013 ? They beat teams with way more height and athletes or as BENNIES would say urban athletes. They beat them by BUILDING a program from the grade school level up. They had no height and no D1 players. How was it possible schools like Mentor or Jackson to win state titles. How could Mentor with no height to speak of to beat teams like Harding with 3 huge kids at regionals? There are examples all over of teams using system to beat athletes and size.

In fact a few years ago VASJ played Watterson and they were midgets compared to Joe's - and they beat us. Just because you both are anti Joe's or feel the Vikings have a cake walk every year - don't let that cloud the facts. Every time somebody points out an example you find an excuse why it happened. Mentor came within a bad inbound pass away from beating Huntington Prep with Andew Wiggins as well. That team had 5 or 6 high D1 players and Mentor had none. It can be done but it takes work and the right system. Most teams don't install the proper system that works best for their talent and they surely don't challenge their players against better talent.
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  #106  
Old 03-16-17, 06:58 PM
VASJalumni VASJalumni is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CatAlum View Post
You can work, work, work. You can play tough schedules, demand the most from your players. That will improve your chances. However, at the end of the day, if your center is 6'1" with average physical abilities, you will not be able to compete with a center who is 6'6" with very good physical abilities if he also worked and played against tough teams.

This stuff being spewed by this single VASJ fan is infantile and doesn't represent the views of other fans. Does VASJ work hard? Sure they do. In recent years, do they have almost unbeatable talent given the level that they compete at? Yes.

Has Garrettsville Garfield ever had someone play at Kansas or Northwestern? Have they had players who could have played at Kansas or Northwestern if Garfield's coach had just scheduled some tougher competition? DOUBTFUL.
If your center is 6'1 with average ability, your going to struggle to get to states regardless of division. Its just the unfortunate truth. States are not for average players. Not to be blunt but if your center is somewhat undersized for that position (which 6'1 is) and he has average ability, do you deserve to win regionals and go to states?
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  #107  
Old 03-16-17, 09:28 PM
CoventryTrackXCguy CoventryTrackXCguy is offline
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I think the point they are driving at here is that VASJ, as well as other urban schools, are better able to acquire the players with the necessary talent then their country counterparts. I mean, a lot of these country schools, especially in the south east of Ohio, their districts are just simply so vast geographically that open enrolling is extremely difficult, if not impossible. So these schools can pretty much expect that the only players they will ever receive are from their own neck of the woods. We can tout hard work and better scheduling (although thats a logistical nightmare in some of these rural areas). And it will help, but against urban teams like VASJ( I have no personal gripe against VASJ, that school just seems to be at the center of discussion. Truth is, I know alot of terriffic people there, believe me.). But the truth is, against these schools, who also work very hard, the difference maker often becomes the ability to put more talent on the floor. That is not complaining, just explaining the crux of the matter in which there is no simple solution to.

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  #108  
Old 03-16-17, 09:37 PM
Bennies'01 Bennies'01 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bball216 View Post
CatAlum - how do you explain Mentor being state champs in D1 in 2013 ? They beat teams with way more height and athletes or as BENNIES would say urban athletes. They beat them by BUILDING a program from the grade school level up. They had no height and no D1 players. How was it possible schools like Mentor or Jackson to win state titles. How could Mentor with no height to speak of to beat teams like Harding with 3 huge kids at regionals? There are examples all over of teams using system to beat athletes and size.

In fact a few years ago VASJ played Watterson and they were midgets compared to Joe's - and they beat us. Just because you both are anti Joe's or feel the Vikings have a cake walk every year - don't let that cloud the facts. Every time somebody points out an example you find an excuse why it happened. Mentor came within a bad inbound pass away from beating Huntington Prep with Andew Wiggins as well. That team had 5 or 6 high D1 players and Mentor had none. It can be done but it takes work and the right system. Most teams don't install the proper system that works best for their talent and they surely don't challenge their players against better talent.
Let's not pretend that that '13 Mentor team had no athletes (and you're the one talking "urban" athletes here). Of Mentor's five starters that year, one currently plays DI basketball (in a major conference), two went on to play DI college football (in major conferences), and one plays DIII basketball. But that's a red herring, because large public schools in Division I competing against private schools in the same division are a different animal than rural public schools in DIII and DIV competing against metropolitan private schools.

And yes, in basketball, upsets happen. Those are statistical outliers that do nothing to support your argument that VASJ, on a consistent basis, has more talent than 98% of the teams in Division III.
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  #109  
Old 03-16-17, 09:53 PM
CatAlum CatAlum is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VASJalumni View Post
If your center is 6'1 with average ability, your going to struggle to get to states regardless of division. Its just the unfortunate truth. States are not for average players. Not to be blunt but if your center is somewhat undersized for that position (which 6'1 is) and he has average ability, do you deserve to win regionals and go to states?
No, you don't, and won't...and playing a tougher schedule isn't going to change the reality much. Tell that to your friend, Mr. 216.
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  #110  
Old 03-16-17, 10:06 PM
CatAlum CatAlum is offline
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Originally Posted by Bennies'01 View Post
Let's not pretend that that '13 Mentor team had no athletes (and you're the one talking "urban" athletes here). Of Mentor's five starters that year, one currently plays DI basketball (in a major conference), two went on to play DI college football (in major conferences), and one plays DIII basketball.
Similar to the Ignatius 2001 state title team...two D-I football players (Pat Massey/Michigan; Gannon/Louisville); an Ivy football player (Hennessy/Yale); a small D-I b-baller (Benton/St. Francis) and I think Peter Koch played D-III football or b-ball.
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  #111  
Old 03-16-17, 10:33 PM
MugnMaul78 MugnMaul78 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoventryTrackXCguy View Post
I think the point they are driving at here is that VASJ, as well as other urban schools, are better able to acquire the players with the necessary talent then their country counterparts. I mean, a lot of these country schools, especially in the south east of Ohio, their districts are just simply so vast geographically that open enrolling is extremely difficult, if not impossible. So these schools can pretty much expect that the only players they will ever receive are from their own neck of the woods. We can tout hard work and better scheduling (although thats a logistical nightmare in some of these rural areas). And it will help, but against urban teams like VASJ( I have no personal gripe against VASJ, that school just seems to be at the center of discussion. Truth is, I know alot of terriffic people there, believe me.). But the truth is, against these schools, who also work very hard, the difference maker often becomes the ability to put more talent on the floor. That is not complaining, just explaining the crux of the matter in which there is no simple solution to.

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Fair statements. And on the flip side, for every basketball game VASJ wins against rural city teams, their football team will lose. When we played Berlin Hiland in 2011 and Mogadore in 2013 (?) in the playoffs or a Kirtland, we got our tail handed to us. It is hard to compete with a school district of beasts that has played together since 3rd grade flag football. So for all of the haters out there, cry me a river because it is what it is.
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  #112  
Old 03-17-17, 01:49 AM
Bball216 Bball216 is offline
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Face it VASJ is a powerhouse in two sports now - boys basketball and girls volleyball. I don't hear any complaints when our other sports get their heads kicked in. Some things are what they are. Not every team or school will or should have a legit shot at winning a state title. It could be for several reasons. It could be geographical, talent, coaching, competition or any other reason that exists. If VASJ moves up then D3 schools will complain about another school. It is impossible to makes things fair for every single school - in all divisions. It just seems Joe's is being singled out because they are currently going through a golden era of sorts where they have very good talent and low enrollment. I know what VASJ is doing looks easy from the outside - but it really is not as easy as you think. In the last 5 years or so even with great talent Joe's has had tough games against Richmond Heights, Warrensville Heights and Beachwood (all public schools) just to get out of districts. I agree with Maul in that it is what it is. Joe's is just doing the best it can playing where the OHSAA has them positioned. Don't hate the player, hate the game.
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  #113  
Old 03-17-17, 10:22 AM
VASJalumni VASJalumni is offline
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When talking DIII basketball, VASJ is obviously going to be talked about the most. VASJ has been blessed with amazing athletes in the past 5 years. It seems that the big issue comes in regionals. Joes has been blowing through regionals the past 5 years and people are screaming to move them up a division. Which I do not completely disagree with. VASJ has however taken the hand they were dealt and are running with it. That is neither here nor there. I do believe that the "farm teams" should try and schedule a few harder games. Some teams make no effort and some teams do.

Scheduling harder teams will improve a teams plays and make them better prepared for tougher teams. Will this make up for the talent gap? HELL NO. The harsh reality is that whoever comes out of the Garfield Heights district will most likely win regionals whether its VASJ, Warrensville, or Beachwood. Especially with the great teams these schools have had in the past couple years. To make a fair canton regional, getting rid of VASJ is not the answer. I firmly believe that if or when VASJ leaves D3, another team like Warrensville will fill the place of Joes and continue to to win the Canton regional. I have no idea how they can make this regional more fair without getting rid of the garfield heights district and obviously this is not a probable thing to do. My point is, VASJ is not the only issue with this regional. I believe that if VASJ was not in DIII, we would be having the same debate about Warrensville or Beachwood.
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  #114  
Old 03-17-17, 12:55 PM
IVCguy IVCguy is offline
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Originally Posted by Lakeshore5 View Post
Great point, Hiland should've been in D1 as well when they were running through D4 those years with Seger and Kaufman.
You need to read back a few pages where I cite that situation and team as an example of creating competitive imbalance. You can't throw Dylan into that discussion tho. He was in kindergarten there, as were his teammates - except for Seger. The addition of that one player is what created the competitive problem.

But to your point, probably not DI, but DII would have been where they could have competed.

No matter how much I try to convince people the problem is not urban/"farm" or public/private, but it is about how a particular school attracts their talent, the quality of that talent, and the effect when added to the talent already there, people just keep going back to urban/farm or public/private. No wonder they haven't solved this thing. Lol.
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  #115  
Old 03-18-17, 07:58 AM
BacktoBack BacktoBack is offline
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Originally Posted by IVCguy View Post
No matter how much I try to convince people the problem is not urban/"farm" or public/private, but it is about how a particular school attracts their talent, the quality of that talent, and the effect when added to the talent already there, people just keep going back to urban/farm or public/private. No wonder they haven't solved this thing. Lol.
I'm with you. When you have the ability to sift through a huge talent pool, that makes all the difference in the world. Scheduling, coaching and preparation can do a lot for some smaller programs to better prepare them, but there is a saying: Hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard.

I'll finish that statement: When talent works hard, talent wins.
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  #116  
Old 03-18-17, 08:18 AM
IVCguy IVCguy is offline
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Originally Posted by BacktoBack View Post
I'm with you. When you have the ability to sift through a huge talent pool, that makes all the difference in the world. Scheduling, coaching and preparation can do a lot for some smaller programs to better prepare them, but there is a saying: Hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard.

I'll finish that statement: When talent works hard, talent wins.
Drops microphone.

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  #117  
Old 03-18-17, 09:08 AM
Irish60 Irish60 is offline
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Originally Posted by Yappi View Post
For those that believe this, do you think it applies to all other sports too?

Is facing 90MPH pitching going to make the average hitters better? Facing 300lb D1 defensive line recruits make the average QBs better? Average runners in the 100 meter versus state champions?

High School sports is too short of a season to make teams significantly better just by playing great teams. What you are really hoping for is that the kids coming in to the HS over the next few years will see the type of teams that you are playing and they will work that much harder. Maybe you will see fewer top level players leave your program for other programs. And if you are really lucky, a couple elite players that have no real connection to your school will now consider it as one of their destinations.

For this to work, you better have a supportive administration. Those first couple of seasons might be pretty rough.
Actually, in many sports, I'd say the answer is "yes". In baseball, the first time you go up against a pitcher who throws 90 mph, you have NO chance to hit it! But if you see 90 mph a few more times, you'll stand a better chance of getting the timing down. In football a couple of years ago my Irish played Hubbard in the Regional final. STVM had a lot of talent, but Hubbard (with LJ Scott) was on another level. I'm not saying ST. V's schedule was the reason they won, but I will say their schedule gave them the confidence to stay in the game. They were better prepared than Hubbard to play a close game.

In these threads, I think the point gets lost in the extremes. Can a team of 5'5" computer nerds compete in a basketball game against a team of 6'8" D1 athletes? Of course not, but that's not the question. The question is (or should be) "With teams of more commensurate ability, can playing a tougher schedule give an advantage to one team over another?" Look at last year in D2. There were 2 teams (John Glenn and STVM) who anyone thought had a legitimate chance to win the title. The Irish schedule was tougher, BUT John Glenn did come up to Akron and beat the Irish on the road. That game HAD to boost their confidence. And certainly they were in a much better frame of mind going into the State title game because they "knew" they could beat the Irish. Had they not challenged St. V in the regular season, they would have "thought" they could beat them. And that difference is huge in a close game.

So, I guess this is a long way of saying when there is a large talent gap, the more talented team will win regardless of schedule. But for teams that are closer in talent, I'll go with the team who plays the tougher schedule. Also, if a team plays a more challenging schedule, it may be able to hold onto its talent a little better rather than lose them to the privates.
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Old 03-18-17, 10:40 AM
SirStanley SirStanley is offline
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Originally Posted by Irish60 View Post
Actually, in many sports, I'd say the answer is "yes". In baseball, the first time you go up against a pitcher who throws 90 mph, you have NO chance to hit it! But if you see 90 mph a few more times, you'll stand a better chance of getting the timing down. In football a couple of years ago my Irish played Hubbard in the Regional final. STVM had a lot of talent, but Hubbard (with LJ Scott) was on another level. I'm not saying ST. V's schedule was the reason they won, but I will say their schedule gave them the confidence to stay in the game. They were better prepared than Hubbard to play a close game.

In these threads, I think the point gets lost in the extremes. Can a team of 5'5" computer nerds compete in a basketball game against a team of 6'8" D1 athletes? Of course not, but that's not the question. The question is (or should be) "With teams of more commensurate ability, can playing a tougher schedule give an advantage to one team over another?" Look at last year in D2. There were 2 teams (John Glenn and STVM) who anyone thought had a legitimate chance to win the title. The Irish schedule was tougher, BUT John Glenn did come up to Akron and beat the Irish on the road. That game HAD to boost their confidence. And certainly they were in a much better frame of mind going into the State title game because they "knew" they could beat the Irish. Had they not challenged St. V in the regular season, they would have "thought" they could beat them. And that difference is huge in a close game.

So, I guess this is a long way of saying when there is a large talent gap, the more talented team will win regardless of schedule. But for teams that are closer in talent, I'll go with the team who plays the tougher schedule. Also, if a team plays a more challenging schedule, it may be able to hold onto its talent a little better rather than lose them to the privates.
I think there are many good points on both sides of this.

The John Glenn example is a good one. SVSM is always awesome, and we know there's no shortage of talent (or lack of competition with regards to this conversation). I saw both of their wins over SVSM last year (television), and both teams played with amazing energy, skill, and intelligence. Wonderful high school basketball. Now, my understanding is that John Glenn had multiple transfers. Still had to play amazing hoops to win the state title, and I agree that the earlier game with SVSM probably helped them be better prepared for the title run, but without the players coming in, I don't think we're talking about them. I don't see a dynasty being established at John Glenn unless players continue to come in.

VASJ is a wonderful program. The kids play extremely hard and are clearly well coached. I think most supporters of the program on here don't see the talent disparity between VASJ and the typical D3 program. An article on this thread talking about the home grown talent at VASJ talked about maybe four current D1 VASJ alums who represented way more talent than my eight-team suburban D2/D3 league has had in my 22 years of high school coaching (a handful of players in the league have been D1 walk-ons). The current VASJ team probably has more talent than any single team in our league has ever had.

In my time as a coach, our league has had one D3 state champ (Reading 2003), one runner-up (Indian Hill 1998), and we made the state semifinals in 1999. We (my school and the other league teams) had numerous district champions in the first half of my coaching career (1995-2006). Reading's state title (aided by four senior transfers; an occurrence that hadn't and hasn't happened for any school in our league before or since) marked a huge change. O.J. Mayo arrived with Bill Walker (and many other transfers) to D3 North College Hill in 2004. After the NCH three-peat, we've seen a number of small private schools (Summit up from D4 and both Roger Bacon and Purcell Marian down from D2) and, with less regularity, Cincinnati Public Schools come up with greater collections of talent than occurred before. Also, in my opinion, they are better coached than they were before. No team from my league has won a district title since 2006.

Is it possible to compete? I pay close attention to the MAC, and I'm amazed at how well Beachwood has become in the past couple seasons (the Beachwood teams when my cousins were there used to get destroyed in hoops -- did well in wrestling). Would a stronger schedule help us? I think we did pretty well for what we had going 14-10 this season. Ultimately, you have to schedule for the capabilities of your squad. Similarly, while shooting for the state title is what we're all striving towards, the process of getting there is much different at different schools.
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Old 03-18-17, 01:40 PM
BLUE DEVIL 81 BLUE DEVIL 81 is offline
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Originally Posted by ideliver View Post
LaBrae is in Warren and won't play Harding, won't play Ursuline, won't play Boardman, and won't even play little JFK.

No surprise their "perfect" season was ruined by a Garfield...a district champion that lost by 40 (could have been any number VASJ wanted.)

The same could be said for McDonald. The trapping "pressure" defense that they run, works well against smaller, slower teams...JFK had little trouble with it. CCA would have had little trouble with it too.

The competition is there...coaches just got to want to play against it and get better. A 25-2 record is meaningless if you can't even get to a regional championship, let alone win your district.
I would dispute your statement that JFK "had little trouble" with McDonald's press. The 72-60 margin was very deceiving. JFK had their fair share of turnovers and McDonald went on a little run midway through the 3Q which put them up by 7. That run was because of McDonald's press. The game was single digits back and forth the whole game with several lead changes until the last minute or so when McDonald was down and fouled a few times to get the ball back. That is the only reason the final margin went to 12. The McDonald players and fans should be proud. They proved they can play with ANYONE in the State in D4 despite what many detractors said. With Rasile and Poole back next year and a JV team that lost only 2 or 3 games, look for McDonald to be back next year.
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Old 03-18-17, 01:59 PM
Yappi Yappi is offline
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Originally Posted by Irish60 View Post
Actually, in many sports, I'd say the answer is "yes". In baseball, the first time you go up against a pitcher who throws 90 mph, you have NO chance to hit it! But if you see 90 mph a few more times, you'll stand a better chance of getting the timing down.
I just don't see it. I've watched baseball for years and getting in there facing 90MPH pitching by average hitters and below average hitters results in one of three things; strikeout, walk, HBP. It's not something that can be adjusted to in just a couple of months. It takes years of hardwork.

Even with all that hardwork, most kids will not get to that level. Most schools would be lucky to field 9 great players who could consistently hit 90MPH pitching. It's a skill that needs to be developed but you also need God-given talent to reach that level.

Basketball is much the same. Hardwork and God-given talent are necessary to have a great team. Scheduling against great teams will help already very good teams but won't do much for the average and below average teams who will just get alot of losses by lopsided margins.
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