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  #31  
Old 02-21-17, 05:32 AM
bass10 bass10 is offline
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Originally Posted by Bball216 View Post
Results do not happen overnight. You need the right freshman, JV and Varsity staff to BUILD a program. It can be done but it's work. Many schools don't put in the effort to BUILD a program - it's easier to complain. Please tell me how many D1 players Mentor or St. Thomas Aquanis have - zero. What they have perfected over the years is a playing style and a system. They developed a system for the kind of kids they get. It takes extreme conditioning and discipline to do this - more effort than most school staffs are willing to do. How did Mentor win state in 2013 with no kid over 6'4 in D1 ? How did STA end up state runner up with an even smaller squad ? Only 4 teams a year WIN state. While I agree not every school has a chance to win state, many schools can absolutely play at a higher level and compete with better teams. You do not need D1 talent to win state. VASJ had zero D1 talent last season and was state Runner Up. They won with coaching, hustle and heart. Every team can have those 3 qualities. I see teams with D1 talent lose every year to schools with less talent. It's much easier to make excuses as to why you can't win and how the system is broken then it is to put in the work to make yourself better.
Yawn
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  #32  
Old 02-21-17, 02:56 PM
coachablekid coachablekid is offline
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Well most people complain about the catholic schools getting all the love because they can recruit. City league schools get all the hate, so I see why they complain. But I get what you are saying and a school that I follow, Eastmoor Academy in Columbus, Ohio does exactly what you say VASJ do. The year they faced VASJ in the final 4, Eastmoor regular season record was 11-11. They played DI schools like Dublin Coffman, Reynoldsburg, 2 teams from New York, etc. This year Eastmoor is in DII and played the likes of Westerville South, Springfield, etc. The point is people will complain just because. I think they should go on a 5 year period. Example would be VASJ. In the last 5 years they have been in the state championship game. Since they play a DI schedule, then move them up to DI. The ultimate goal is keep it competitive. On the other side of the coin, International for an example. They have not had a winning season, move them down to DIV.
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  #33  
Old 02-21-17, 03:01 PM
coachablekid coachablekid is offline
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I get what you are saying and people complain just to complain. 1st off, catholic schools do get over because they can recruit while the city don't have the facilities to compete. I think what they should do is go by every 5 years on how the school is competitive or not. Example, your sweet VASJ team. The last 5 years they have been in the DIII and IV state championship game, with the schedule they play they should move up to DI. On the other side of the coin, Columbus International has not had a winning season, they should play DIV. What you think?
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  #34  
Old 02-21-17, 04:25 PM
IVCguy IVCguy is offline
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There are ingredients that go into a cake. Each one is necessary, and yet each one doesn't make the cake in and of itself. What we have here is people using the multiple ingredients as a way to argue that one doesn't matter - and yet, if you take the flour out of the cake, it's not cake.

State championship basketball teams rely on talent, size/speed/athleticism, coaching, player development, team chemistry, and some degree of luck. Those are the ingredients. Talent is the flour in that cake. No flour, no cake. Talent is closely tied to size/speed/athleticism advantages. It's a lot easier to coach a talented team. The ceiling is higher in terms of player development when the player is talented, and has the size, speed, and athleticism to begin with. Talent doesn't necessarily help you with chemistry or luck, but it sure does supply the main ingredient, and it helps you with several other essential ingredients.

To illustrate with the most outrageous example, the Cleveland Cavs would kill the best HS team in the country. Why? Too much talent, skill, size, speed, and athleticism. The disparity is so wide that you don't need anything else. When it comes to HS basketball, we have some schools who draw their players from a rural area where the population is sparse and the talent is limited. We have others who draw their players from an urban, densely populated area where there are greater numbers of talented players. One thing is not like the other. We have had a system based on enrollment, so this led to a VASJ competing with small, rural schools with a talent differential that was absurd. It's just hard to guard 6-9 fast and strong with 6-1 slow and weaker. Always has been that way, and always will be. Perhaps if there was some talent advantage elsewhere, it might not be so bad, but typically your VASJ (not picking on them, but just using them as an example) is going to have a talent/size/speed advantage at every position. Not a fair fight. We classify boxers according to weight, but in Ohio HS basketball we allow heavyweights to beat the snot out of bantamweights.

Now we are going to have a system based on enrollment where programs are going to be bumped up in their enrollment dependent on whether they have players from outside of their normal geographic lines. This will probably result in some urban/transfer dependent programs being bumped up a division or two.

It may improve competitive balance, and if it helps improve CB it will be an accident, because the geographic location of players doesn't create the problem. The problem is created by the QUALITY of players transferring into a program, not the quantity. A small rural school could get 20 5'4" transfers with no athleticism that wouldn't help that program at all, but they may get bumped up two divisions. On the other hand, an already loaded squad could get 1 elite post player that immediately makes them a contender in any division, but doesn't affect their division assignment at all.

I'm not sure what the exact right answer is to the competitive balance question is, but what I do know is that the cause of it is how talent is acquired, and what division we assign particular teams to. I would suggest that any cure has to be directed to address the cause of the disease. Unfortunately, right now, we don't have that - under the old or new system.

You would have to identify teams with elite level transfer talent that creates a situation where the team those transfers are going to is evaluated for divisional assignment based on what level of competition those acquired players make that team capable of competing against. It would always be somewhat subjective - and, therefore, controversial. But if you are going to try to fix CB, that's what is required.
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  #35  
Old 02-21-17, 04:42 PM
Bennies'01 Bennies'01 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IVCguy View Post
There are ingredients that go into a cake. Each one is necessary, and yet each one doesn't make the cake in and of itself. What we have here is people using the multiple ingredients as a way to argue that one doesn't matter - and yet, if you take the flour out of the cake, it's not cake.

State championship basketball teams rely on talent, size/speed/athleticism, coaching, player development, team chemistry, and some degree of luck. Those are the ingredients. Talent is the flour in that cake. No flour, no cake. Talent is closely tied to size/speed/athleticism advantages. It's a lot easier to coach a talented team. The ceiling is higher in terms of player development when the player is talented, and has the size, speed, and athleticism to begin with. Talent doesn't necessarily help you with chemistry or luck, but it sure does supply the main ingredient, and it helps you with several other essential ingredients.

To illustrate with the most outrageous example, the Cleveland Cavs would kill the best HS team in the country. Why? Too much talent, skill, size, speed, and athleticism. The disparity is so wide that you don't need anything else. When it comes to HS basketball, we have some schools who draw their players from a rural area where the population is sparse and the talent is limited. We have others who draw their players from an urban, densely populated area where there are greater numbers of talented players. One thing is not like the other. We have had a system based on enrollment, so this led to a VASJ competing with small, rural schools with a talent differential that was absurd. It's just hard to guard 6-9 fast and strong with 6-1 slow and weaker. Always has been that way, and always will be. Perhaps if there was some talent advantage elsewhere, it might not be so bad, but typically your VASJ (not picking on them, but just using them as an example) is going to have a talent/size/speed advantage at every position. Not a fair fight. We classify boxers according to weight, but in Ohio HS basketball we allow heavyweights to beat the snot out of bantamweights.

Now we are going to have a system based on enrollment where programs are going to be bumped up in their enrollment dependent on whether they have players from outside of their normal geographic lines. This will probably result in some urban/transfer dependent programs being bumped up a division or two.

It may improve competitive balance, and if it helps improve CB it will be an accident, because the geographic location of players doesn't create the problem. The problem is created by the QUALITY of players transferring into a program, not the quantity. A small rural school could get 20 5'4" transfers with no athleticism that wouldn't help that program at all, but they may get bumped up two divisions. On the other hand, an already loaded squad could get 1 elite post player that immediately makes them a contender in any division, but doesn't affect their division assignment at all.

I'm not sure what the exact right answer is to the competitive balance question is, but what I do know is that the cause of it is how talent is acquired, and what division we assign particular teams to. I would suggest that any cure has to be directed to address the cause of the disease. Unfortunately, right now, we don't have that - under the old or new system.

You would have to identify teams with elite level transfer talent that creates a situation where the team those transfers are going to is evaluated for divisional assignment based on what level of competition those acquired players make that team capable of competing against. It would always be somewhat subjective - and, therefore, controversial. But if you are going to try to fix CB, that's what is required.
Excellent post. The competitive balance proposal does not seem as if it created with basketball in mind.
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  #36  
Old 02-21-17, 07:00 PM
Bball216 Bball216 is offline
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The CB will effect all sports. With that being said the good programs will still be good and the bad programs will still struggle. Programs need to be built in all sports and in all divisions. VASJ would absolutely have a tougher road to state in D2, but they will not be non competitive. They will still get to state, just not as often. The big issue will be foitball when some of these small privates have to move up and face bigger public schools. Football will be the one sport where CB might not work. People who have complained about teams like VASJ will find a new private school to complain about. The public school complainers will never be happy. Truth be told VASJ will be happy to move up to D2 because that means the school is growing as well.
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  #37  
Old 02-21-17, 08:40 PM
TriangleMan TriangleMan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IVCguy View Post
There are ingredients that go into a cake. Each one is necessary, and yet each one doesn't make the cake in and of itself. What we have here is people using the multiple ingredients as a way to argue that one doesn't matter - and yet, if you take the flour out of the cake, it's not cake.

State championship basketball teams rely on talent, size/speed/athleticism, coaching, player development, team chemistry, and some degree of luck. Those are the ingredients. Talent is the flour in that cake. No flour, no cake. Talent is closely tied to size/speed/athleticism advantages. It's a lot easier to coach a talented team. The ceiling is higher in terms of player development when the player is talented, and has the size, speed, and athleticism to begin with. Talent doesn't necessarily help you with chemistry or luck, but it sure does supply the main ingredient, and it helps you with several other essential ingredients.

To illustrate with the most outrageous example, the Cleveland Cavs would kill the best HS team in the country. Why? Too much talent, skill, size, speed, and athleticism. The disparity is so wide that you don't need anything else. When it comes to HS basketball, we have some schools who draw their players from a rural area where the population is sparse and the talent is limited. We have others who draw their players from an urban, densely populated area where there are greater numbers of talented players. One thing is not like the other. We have had a system based on enrollment, so this led to a VASJ competing with small, rural schools with a talent differential that was absurd. It's just hard to guard 6-9 fast and strong with 6-1 slow and weaker. Always has been that way, and always will be. Perhaps if there was some talent advantage elsewhere, it might not be so bad, but typically your VASJ (not picking on them, but just using them as an example) is going to have a talent/size/speed advantage at every position. Not a fair fight. We classify boxers according to weight, but in Ohio HS basketball we allow heavyweights to beat the snot out of bantamweights.

Now we are going to have a system based on enrollment where programs are going to be bumped up in their enrollment dependent on whether they have players from outside of their normal geographic lines. This will probably result in some urban/transfer dependent programs being bumped up a division or two.

It may improve competitive balance, and if it helps improve CB it will be an accident, because the geographic location of players doesn't create the problem. The problem is created by the QUALITY of players transferring into a program, not the quantity. A small rural school could get 20 5'4" transfers with no athleticism that wouldn't help that program at all, but they may get bumped up two divisions. On the other hand, an already loaded squad could get 1 elite post player that immediately makes them a contender in any division, but doesn't affect their division assignment at all.

I'm not sure what the exact right answer is to the competitive balance question is, but what I do know is that the cause of it is how talent is acquired, and what division we assign particular teams to. I would suggest that any cure has to be directed to address the cause of the disease. Unfortunately, right now, we don't have that - under the old or new system.

You would have to identify teams with elite level transfer talent that creates a situation where the team those transfers are going to is evaluated for divisional assignment based on what level of competition those acquired players make that team capable of competing against. It would always be somewhat subjective - and, therefore, controversial. But if you are going to try to fix CB, that's what is required.
Agree 100%. And to paraphrase one of my comments from the football thread...
Quote:
Originally Posted by TriangleMan View Post
Therein lies what I see as the hypocrisy of the OHSAA and the Competitive Balance movement as it is; believing competitive capability...can simply be equated to an arbitrary number like enrollment or adjusted enrollment.
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  #38  
Old 02-21-17, 09:03 PM
CCA Fan CCA Fan is offline
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I am sure many have already thought of this but..

What if the top 10% based on finish in each division moved up for the next year and the bottom 10% moved down a division. Would teams tank just to move down?
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  #39  
Old 02-21-17, 09:29 PM
Bball216 Bball216 is offline
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TriangleMan - you make some awesome points. There is no real fix that would be fair for all parties involved. The public / rural teams have hatred for the metropolitan privates. Once that is addressed the teams they are trying to get moved (ala VASJ) will be replaced by a private moving up from the division below them. Then they will have an issue with the public schools that have open enrollment - where does it end and what does it really fix. How do you think the D2 public schools are going to feel ? They can hypothetically have a team like Benedictine move to D1 only to be replaced with VASJ - thanks for nothing. This will happen in all the lower divisions. Also remember some schools (like VASJ two years ago) were the smallest school in their division. Do you know that loaded team with Bragg, Pardon and Parker, etc was only 3 or 4 boys away from being D4. How ugly would that have been. I can only speak about the program that I know pretty well. I don't know what is fair. Do you punish a program like Joe's that has its stuff together and works harder than just about any team in Ohio - and has the coaching and staff to match ? Is that fair. You can see examples all over the state where teams without D1 talent compete just fine with teams that do. Those programs have stable situations where a style or system has been in place for years (ala Mentor). How many programs really develope players to actually fit a system ? If you don't have size you find a system that allows you to compete the best you can with teams that do. Maybe you press the whole game and develope outside shooters. SVSM is not tall at all this year - yet they can compete with just about anybody due to the style they play. They are not loaded like in years past with D1 talent.

No matter what system is in place to reach Columbus takes more then just moving teams around. Crappy programs will still be crappy and great programs will still be great. Many programs are looking for this CB to provide relief from having to play these urban privates - but they are in for a rude awakening. This CB will fix very little. Some of these schools are so small that even with the CB - they might stay in the same division.
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  #40  
Old 02-21-17, 09:49 PM
Yappi Yappi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CCA Fan View Post
What if the top 10% based on finish in each division moved up for the next year and the bottom 10% moved down a division. Would teams tank just to move down?
I think something like that is the future of divisions in Ohio.

But you are going to have people who vehemently disagree with any moves like that. I suggested one simple rule that any champion in a lower division has to move up one division for the following year. Several people on here thought that was unfair.

My argument was that the lower divisions were the original "competitive balance" for smaller schools. Anyone that won in a lower division benefited from being in that lower division. The only teams that should be able to win back to back championships in the same division should be in DI.
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  #41  
Old 02-22-17, 03:42 AM
Bball216 Bball216 is offline
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So if you had a squad that was led by a good Senior class like John Glenn last year or Lima Central Catholic the kids on the team the following year would be punished for the prior years success ? Both squads are a shell of what they were last season and they would have to move up as well. Hell both teams are getting beat in their proper division. What about the team that wins it's region and state in tight close games - there reward would be moving up to play schools much bigger than them. Many of these lower division schools catch lighting in a bottle for 1 or 2 years - VASJ and SVSM are sort of the exception lately. Lima Central Catholic has been very good the last 3 years but that run seems to be over as well.
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  #42  
Old 02-22-17, 07:38 AM
TriangleMan TriangleMan is offline
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Originally Posted by Bball216 View Post
TriangleMan - you make some awesome points.
Thanks, but the one making the great points was actually IVCguy.
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  #43  
Old 02-22-17, 02:27 PM
FootsWalker FootsWalker is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bball216 View Post
TriangleMan - you make some awesome points. There is no real fix that would be fair for all parties involved. The public / rural teams have hatred for the metropolitan privates. Once that is addressed the teams they are trying to get moved (ala VASJ) will be replaced by a private moving up from the division below them. Then they will have an issue with the public schools that have open enrollment - where does it end and what does it really fix. How do you think the D2 public schools are going to feel ? They can hypothetically have a team like Benedictine move to D1 only to be replaced with VASJ - thanks for nothing. This will happen in all the lower divisions. Also remember some schools (like VASJ two years ago) were the smallest school in their division. Do you know that loaded team with Bragg, Pardon and Parker, etc was only 3 or 4 boys away from being D4. How ugly would that have been. I can only speak about the program that I know pretty well. I don't know what is fair. Do you punish a program like Joe's that has its stuff together and works harder than just about any team in Ohio - and has the coaching and staff to match ? Is that fair. You can see examples all over the state where teams without D1 talent compete just fine with teams that do. Those programs have stable situations where a style or system has been in place for years (ala Mentor). How many programs really develope players to actually fit a system ? If you don't have size you find a system that allows you to compete the best you can with teams that do. Maybe you press the whole game and develope outside shooters. SVSM is not tall at all this year - yet they can compete with just about anybody due to the style they play. They are not loaded like in years past with D1 talent.

No matter what system is in place to reach Columbus takes more then just moving teams around. Crappy programs will still be crappy and great programs will still be great. Many programs are looking for this CB to provide relief from having to play these urban privates - but they are in for a rude awakening. This CB will fix very little. Some of these schools are so small that even with the CB - they might stay in the same division.
Bragg, Pardon, Parker were actually all on that team that won state in D4 in 2013, winning every game in the tourney by 20-70 points. Honestly think ridiculous situations like that gave the CB proposal some serious momentum. No one's fault, but the tourney in that division that year was an absolute joke. I remember watching that final on tv and laughing out loud to myself about the clear disparity in size, speed, and skill of those 2 teams. Leipsic may have had a 1 in a decade (or more) team, just to get to the SC and run into that Goliath. Felt like I was watching the Cavs scrimmage Lakeland Community College.
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  #44  
Old 02-22-17, 02:49 PM
CoventryTrackXCguy CoventryTrackXCguy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bball216 View Post
The CB will effect all sports. With that being said the good programs will still be good and the bad programs will still struggle. Programs need to be built in all sports and in all divisions. VASJ would absolutely have a tougher road to state in D2, but they will not be non competitive. They will still get to state, just not as often. The big issue will be foitball when some of these small privates have to move up and face bigger public schools. Football will be the one sport where CB might not work. People who have complained about teams like VASJ will find a new private school to complain about. The public school complainers will never be happy. Truth be told VASJ will be happy to move up to D2 because that means the school is growing as well.
I don't believe CB will affect Cross Country, Track, or Wrestling.
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  #45  
Old 02-22-17, 03:15 PM
D4fan D4fan is offline
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Originally Posted by Yappi View Post
I think something like that is the future of divisions in Ohio.

But you are going to have people who vehemently disagree with any moves like that. I suggested one simple rule that any champion in a lower division has to move up one division for the following year. Several people on here thought that was unfair.

My argument was that the lower divisions were the original "competitive balance" for smaller schools. Anyone that won in a lower division benefited from being in that lower division. The only teams that should be able to win back to back championships in the same division should be in DI.
I was likely one of the no votes for an automatic move up for the division champ. My logic is, why should the success of one team from a school dictate to the next team what level of competition they face in the tournament. Bragging rights are a big thing at a school, " our class went farther than your class".
Also, what if that champion team had eight seniors on it and often times a senior heavy team discourages boys a year or two younger from playing if they perceive little chance to play varsity untill after the great team is gone. So the senior class wins and moves on, and freshman who will be sophomores move up to varsity the next year.

Coaches often retire following a state champion run, as there is little interest in a rebuild when other schools are wanting your services to get them to the next level, and have the talent in house and ready, just need the coach.

It may be more fair to punish the next school such a coach goes to than to punish the kids that follow a state championship team. As a parent, if my kid was following a great class I would not want such a penalty imposed, limiting his teams potential.
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  #46  
Old 02-22-17, 03:33 PM
D4fan D4fan is offline
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My solution

Here is my 10 minute brainstorm to solve the issue. The Vamps style power ratings formulas are very accurate. Do not place teams in divisions until the completion of the regular season. Just like in football, they can monitor their progress and see about where they will fall, but it is that final RPI number thst determines which division they will be competing in for the tournament.

This allows the current years team to determine where they are placed, not a previous years team affecting those that follow. It also would allow for bragging rights to stay intact. A small scool whose team lost second round D2 may be quickly recognized as superior arguably to the same schools team that won a D4 sectional.
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  #47  
Old 02-22-17, 04:46 PM
Bennies'01 Bennies'01 is offline
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Originally Posted by Bball216 View Post
TriangleMan - you make some awesome points. There is no real fix that would be fair for all parties involved. The public / rural teams have hatred for the metropolitan privates. Once that is addressed the teams they are trying to get moved (ala VASJ) will be replaced by a private moving up from the division below them. Then they will have an issue with the public schools that have open enrollment - where does it end and what does it really fix. How do you think the D2 public schools are going to feel ? They can hypothetically have a team like Benedictine move to D1 only to be replaced with VASJ - thanks for nothing. This will happen in all the lower divisions. Also remember some schools (like VASJ two years ago) were the smallest school in their division. Do you know that loaded team with Bragg, Pardon and Parker, etc was only 3 or 4 boys away from being D4. How ugly would that have been. I can only speak about the program that I know pretty well. I don't know what is fair. Do you punish a program like Joe's that has its stuff together and works harder than just about any team in Ohio - and has the coaching and staff to match ? Is that fair. You can see examples all over the state where teams without D1 talent compete just fine with teams that do. Those programs have stable situations where a style or system has been in place for years (ala Mentor). How many programs really develope players to actually fit a system ? If you don't have size you find a system that allows you to compete the best you can with teams that do. Maybe you press the whole game and develope outside shooters. SVSM is not tall at all this year - yet they can compete with just about anybody due to the style they play. They are not loaded like in years past with D1 talent.

No matter what system is in place to reach Columbus takes more then just moving teams around. Crappy programs will still be crappy and great programs will still be great. Many programs are looking for this CB to provide relief from having to play these urban privates - but they are in for a rude awakening. This CB will fix very little. Some of these schools are so small that even with the CB - they might stay in the same division.
The issue is that in a sport like basketball, school enrollment is almost meaningless. Any restructuring that simply moves a school like VASJ up one division is still too closely-tied to enrollment and ignoring the reality that a few very good players can allow a team to compete for a title in any division.

I guess another option would be to make it an ego thing. Maybe open up Division I to any school that wants to really compete and create an air of prestige that goes with winning that title that does not exist at other levels. Let's see if the metropolitan privates that line their gyms with lower division title banners still find value in beating up on rural public schools they have a big advantage over to earn what would then be more of a second-tier piece of hardware.
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  #48  
Old 02-22-17, 04:55 PM
Bennies'01 Bennies'01 is offline
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Originally Posted by D4fan View Post
I was likely one of the no votes for an automatic move up for the division champ. My logic is, why should the success of one team from a school dictate to the next team what level of competition they face in the tournament. Bragging rights are a big thing at a school, " our class went farther than your class".
Also, what if that champion team had eight seniors on it and often times a senior heavy team discourages boys a year or two younger from playing if they perceive little chance to play varsity untill after the great team is gone. So the senior class wins and moves on, and freshman who will be sophomores move up to varsity the next year.

Coaches often retire following a state champion run, as there is little interest in a rebuild when other schools are wanting your services to get them to the next level, and have the talent in house and ready, just need the coach.

It may be more fair to punish the next school such a coach goes to than to punish the kids that follow a state championship team. As a parent, if my kid was following a great class I would not want such a penalty imposed, limiting his teams potential.
You make a good point. Moving teams up for winning a state title is a bit arbitrary and in my opinion is not expansive enough in covering who should be bumped.

That said, I'm not sure why were are talking about moving teams up as a "punishment" and not more so as an "opportunity." Why are certain metropolitan private schools content in racking up titles in the lower divisions? Why are they not interested in challenging themselves? The conversation is much different in football where rosters are huge and dozens of kids see playing time. Basketball is a sport of small rosters and playing rotations.
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  #49  
Old 02-22-17, 04:58 PM
Bennies'01 Bennies'01 is offline
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Originally Posted by D4fan View Post
Here is my 10 minute brainstorm to solve the issue. The Vamps style power ratings formulas are very accurate. Do not place teams in divisions until the completion of the regular season. Just like in football, they can monitor their progress and see about where they will fall, but it is that final RPI number thst determines which division they will be competing in for the tournament.

This allows the current years team to determine where they are placed, not a previous years team affecting those that follow. It also would allow for bragging rights to stay intact. A small scool whose team lost second round D2 may be quickly recognized as superior arguably to the same schools team that won a D4 sectional.
Not a bad idea, but I'd take it a step further and rather than re-arranging every school in every division, create a 5th tournament with the top 32 or 64 teams in the state and let them all duke it out to be true state champions.
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Old 02-22-17, 05:38 PM
tmajic tmajic is offline
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IVCGuy made many great points. Playing better competition is only going to make you that much better IF you have the talent to get that much better. It isn't going to make you better in the long run either if you still don't have the talent.

In '08 Malvern HS (Div IV) had their best team ever. They had 3 players that just don't come around that often at a tiny school like theirs. 25-0 ranked 2nd in the state, and beat a very good Columbiana team by 40 in the regional semis, but in doing so lost their young point guard (an essential part but not one of the top three at the time). Then, they had to play Bedford Chanel who had previously played DII and kept dropping. They still had talent rolling in each year but with their enrollment they dropped to DIV in '08. So, a school that had a legit chance at their first ever appearance didn't make it as they lost a close one to Chanel. Worthington Christian took care of Chanel at the state tournament but the school with their best ever couldn't make it because of the talent/speed/size advantage and bad luck. The size advantage was negligible though. Bad luck for the Hornets because Chanel dropped a division that year (they no longer even have a school). That year New Knoxville won it as they had a terrific run of talent at their small school.
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Old 02-22-17, 05:59 PM
Bball216 Bball216 is offline
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You said they lost a close one. Is it fair to say if the point guard was healthy - he makes a difference ? Was it Chanel's fault he got hurt. Unfortunately injuries happen and in basketball the player that gets hurt can be devastating. If VASJ was to lose Higgins - they are toast. Even the so called great teams cannot overcome losing a key part of the team.
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Old 02-22-17, 05:59 PM
CCA Fan CCA Fan is offline
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That is a really awesome idea!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bennies'01 View Post
Not a bad idea, but I'd take it a step further and rather than re-arranging every school in every division, create a 5th tournament with the top 32 or 64 teams in the state and let them all duke it out to be true state champions.
What do you think of the job MaxPreps does of ranking the best 32/64 teams in the state?

http://www.maxpreps.com/rankings/bas...state/ohio.htm
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Old 02-22-17, 06:02 PM
Bball216 Bball216 is offline
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Originally Posted by Bennies'01 View Post
The issue is that in a sport like basketball, school enrollment is almost meaningless. Any restructuring that simply moves a school like VASJ up one division is still too closely-tied to enrollment and ignoring the reality that a few very good players can allow a team to compete for a title in any division.

I guess another option would be to make it an ego thing. Maybe open up Division I to any school that wants to really compete and create an air of prestige that goes with winning that title that does not exist at other levels. Let's see if the metropolitan privates that line their gyms with lower division title banners still find value in beating up on rural public schools they have a big advantage over to earn what would then be more of a second-tier piece of hardware.
Does Benny not have lower division banners all over its gym. I was there last year and don't remember seeing any D1 banners in the rafters. Remember there is only one school in Ohio that has won a state basketball title in EVERY division. Joe's.
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Old 02-22-17, 06:06 PM
Bball216 Bball216 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D4fan View Post
Here is my 10 minute brainstorm to solve the issue. The Vamps style power ratings formulas are very accurate. Do not place teams in divisions until the completion of the regular season. Just like in football, they can monitor their progress and see about where they will fall, but it is that final RPI number thst determines which division they will be competing in for the tournament.

This allows the current years team to determine where they are placed, not a previous years team affecting those that follow. It also would allow for bragging rights to stay intact. A small scool whose team lost second round D2 may be quickly recognized as superior arguably to the same schools team that won a D4 sectional.

Teams will sandbag. They will play a tougher schedule and lose a bunch of games - then the playoffs will roll around and they will roll teams and compete for a state title. If you don't have pre determined structure you will get teams that will find a way to beat the system.
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Old 02-22-17, 06:57 PM
Bennies'01 Bennies'01 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bball216 View Post
Does Benny not have lower division banners all over its gym. I was there last year and don't remember seeing any D1 banners in the rafters. Remember there is only one school in Ohio that has won a state basketball title in EVERY division. Joe's.
Every title Benedictine has won has been in a lower division (except for the 1957 football title which many would argue is meaningless because it was won before the playoff format was instituted). But see, Benedictine also has regional title banners, state runners-up banners, and even conference title banners hanging from the rafters. We're not too good to hang banners that are not state championships.

None of that is the point, though. You, as a VASJ fan, are saying that only state titles matter, but then implying that because your school has a smaller enrollment, it cannot compete in a higher division, which by default (according to your argument) means that those lower division titles cannot be as prestigious as a DI title. That's fine to believe that, but then you shouldn't pat yourself on the back too hard for only hanging state title banners, because they were almost all won at a lower level.

Again, I'm not saying any of that, I'm simply taking your argument to its logical conclusion. In reality, VASJ when at its best as a program, has been as good as any school in the state and could have won a state title at any level. However, there have also been some years where, despite inherent advantages as compared to most other teams in its division (the same advantages that allow it to have teams on par with the best in any division), VASJ has only won a state title because it was beating up on rural schools.
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Old 02-22-17, 06:58 PM
Bennies'01 Bennies'01 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bball216 View Post
Teams will sandbag. They will play a tougher schedule and lose a bunch of games - then the playoffs will roll around and they will roll teams and compete for a state title. If you don't have pre determined structure you will get teams that will find a way to beat the system.
That's fine, but at least under such a structure people will more easily recognize that a title in the highest division has more value than one won in DIII or DIV. And then certain schools might earn a reputation as not really being as "big time" as they think they are.
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Old 02-22-17, 07:01 PM
tmajic tmajic is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bball216 View Post
You said they lost a close one. Is it fair to say if the point guard was healthy - he makes a difference ? Was it Chanel's fault he got hurt. Unfortunately injuries happen and in basketball the player that gets hurt can be devastating. If VASJ was to lose Higgins - they are toast. Even the so called great teams cannot overcome losing a key part of the team.
I certainly understand that injuries happen. Would he have made a difference? We will never know. I just know that a school that certainly lost a LOT of enrollment, still attracted the same basketball talent level as when they were DII, and that makes a huge difference to the small town schools. You have to be good AND have some luck to get to the state tourney. Malvern had bad luck twice that year (the injury and the fact that a former DII champ dropped down to DIV)
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Old 02-22-17, 07:44 PM
Bennies'01 Bennies'01 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CCA Fan View Post
What do you think of the job MaxPreps does of ranking the best 32/64 teams in the state?

http://www.maxpreps.com/rankings/bas...state/ohio.htm
Looks pretty good.

Heck, I'll even go one further: Maybe expand it to 128 teams and then not even bother calling the winners of the other tournaments "state champions." Let teams that want to sandbag so they aren't involved in the top tournament do so and then they can compete in what would essentially amount to an NIT.
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Old 02-22-17, 07:44 PM
Bball216 Bball216 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bennies'01 View Post
Every title Benedictine has won has been in a lower division (except for the 1957 football title which many would argue is meaningless because it was won before the playoff format was instituted). But see, Benedictine also has regional title banners, state runners-up banners, and even conference title banners hanging from the rafters. We're not too good to hang banners that are not state championships.

None of that is the point, though. You, as a VASJ fan, are saying that only state titles matter, but then implying that because your school has a smaller enrollment, it cannot compete in a higher division, which by default (according to your argument) means that those lower division titles cannot be as prestigious as a DI title. That's fine to believe that, but then you shouldn't pat yourself on the back too hard for only hanging state title banners, because they were almost all won at a lower level.

Again, I'm not saying any of that, I'm simply taking your argument to its logical conclusion. In reality, VASJ when at its best as a program, has been as good as any school in the state and could have won a state title at any level. However, there have also been some years where, despite inherent advantages as compared to most other teams in its division (the same advantages that allow it to have teams on par with the best in any division), VASJ has only won a state title because it was beating up on rural schools.
I agree with you that D1 has the most prestige. That does not however lower the meaning of any state championship won at a lower level. Those kids who beat LeBron for the state title could care less what division it was won in. Seeing LCC defeat VASJ and vise versa in D3 the last few years proves that all titles matter. That Beachwood team Joe's beat last year was as good as any D2 team. That emotion was real and the game was great - regardless of division. There is some great basketball played down in Columbus every year and every year there is upsets. Joe's has been very blessed the last few years - that is not the norm and it will not be moving forward. Joe's will face stiff competition this year from public and private schools if it wants to go to Columbus again. VASJ does recognize regionals and final fours, buts is on smaller boards on the side walls of the gym. Getting a banner in the rafters is motivation. Those D2 football titles Benny won were hard earned. Those should not be diminished. There is great competition in the lower divisions. Realistically how often does a class like Joe's had come along ? Last years run was totally shocking and unexpected - trust me my son was on the squad. They had no business going to Columbus. That team did it on will power, hustle, coaching and heart. It probably added more gas to the fire because outsiders who do not know how unexpected that state final game run was think that "Look they lost 8 Seniors and 3 D1 players and STILL played for a title"
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Old 02-22-17, 08:33 PM
Yappi Yappi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bennies'01 View Post
That said, I'm not sure why were are talking about moving teams up as a "punishment" and not more so as an "opportunity." Why are certain metropolitan private schools content in racking up titles in the lower divisions? Why are they not interested in challenging themselves?
That was the point of the original argument. Teams should aspire to play in the highest division. Moving a team up one division should be looked at as a reward. Keep winning and you can play in the highest division.

The argument that it is punishing a champion the following year doesn't really make much sense to me. If it was a once in a lifetime team, they weren't going to be competing for the state title in Division II, Division III or Division IV, so what's the difference if they lose in the playoffs in a larger division?

The difference between divisions is very little in some districts. By moving up a division, it's not much of a "punishment."
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