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Old 02-19-17, 09:07 AM
Bball216 Bball216 is offline
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Lack of Competitive Balance or Lack of Quality Competition ?

I was reading a post earlier in the week from possibly IRISH600 who made the above statement and it really hit home because I have been saying the exact same thing for years. Being a supporter of a successfull program (VASJ) like I am, I get tired of hearing about how things are unfair every postseason. Is it really unfair or are the teams the AP and fans think are so good really not that good. I can only speak about the programs I know a bit about like our Vikings, SVSM and Cornerstone. You see these schools can care less about a perfect season or a great regular season record. Sure if your in a conference you want to win it and those games are mandated- but it all comes down to what you do with your non conference games. That is what separates the pretenders from the contenders IMO.

When I see VASJ ranked #9 in D3 or SVSM #11 in D2 I laugh. So much is put into wins and loses and less into who you play. Take a glance at the Viking schedule. They played the #1 and #9 teams in the NATION this year along with Northland, CCC (twice), Gilmour, Mentor, SVSM, Benedictine, STA (twice), JFK and Ed's. What would LeBrae's record be with that schedule ? What would any D3 teams record be ? In several of those games VASJ played shorthand- and still was competitive. You need to challenge yourself in the regular season to see how good or bad you really are. Every team makes the playoffs - who cares. Beating up a bunch of farm teams and rolling up the score might make teams and their fans feel good about themselves, but what does it do to get you prepared for tourney action.

If I was a D3 school I would schedule teams that resemble what I might face come playoff time. In many cases when teams play SVSM or VASJ it's the first time all year they have faced a squad like that and they are nowhere near prepared to face that level of talent. Those are the first schools to cry that things are unfair. What does a great regular season really mean if it's a padded record against light weight competition ? The top programs play these crazy schedules against bigger and better schools for many reasons but the main one is to get better. Playing those kind of schedules also works as a recruiting tool because it attracts kids who want to push and challenge themselves. Those are the kids you need anyway. Do you notice that schools like VASJ, SVSM, Ed's only hang State Championship banners ? That's because that is all that matters. They don't hang runner ups, regionals or district championships like many schools do. Challenging your team against the best competition is the ONLY way to know what it takes to reach the highest level and you do your kids a major disservice if you don't. There are many teams in Ohio who think they are way better then they are and are going to be devastated when they actually play a real team that comes to the party prepared.
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Old 02-19-17, 09:37 AM
SirStanley SirStanley is offline
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Originally Posted by Bball216 View Post
I was reading a post earlier in the week from possibly IRISH600 who made the above statement and it really hit home because I have been saying the exact same thing for years. Being a supporter of a successfull program (VASJ) like I am, I get tired of hearing about how things are unfair every postseason. Is it really unfair or are the teams the AP and fans think are so good really not that good. I can only speak about the programs I know a bit about like our Vikings, SVSM and Cornerstone. You see these schools can care less about a perfect season or a great regular season record. Sure if your in a conference you want to win it and those games are mandated- but it all comes down to what you do with your non conference games. That is what separates the pretenders from the contenders IMO.

When I see VASJ ranked #9 in D3 or SVSM #11 in D2 I laugh. So much is put into wins and loses and less into who you play. Take a glance at the Viking schedule. They played the #1 and #9 teams in the NATION this year along with Northland, CCC (twice), Gilmour, Mentor, SVSM, Benedictine, STA (twice), JFK and Ed's. What would LeBrae's record be with that schedule ? What would any D3 teams record be ? In several of those games VASJ played shorthand- and still was competitive. You need to challenge yourself in the regular season to see how good or bad you really are. Every team makes the playoffs - who cares. Beating up a bunch of farm teams and rolling up the score might make teams and their fans feel good about themselves, but what does it do to get you prepared for tourney action.

If I was a D3 school I would schedule teams that resemble what I might face come playoff time. In many cases when teams play SVSM or VASJ it's the first time all year they have faced a squad like that and they are nowhere near prepared to face that level of talent. Those are the first schools to cry that things are unfair. What does a great regular season really mean if it's a padded record against light weight competition ? The top programs play these crazy schedules against bigger and better schools for many reasons but the main one is to get better. Playing those kind of schedules also works as a recruiting tool because it attracts kids who want to push and challenge themselves. Those are the kids you need anyway. Do you notice that schools like VASJ, SVSM, Ed's only hang State Championship banners ? That's because that is all that matters. They don't hang runner ups, regionals or district championships like many schools do. Challenging your team against the best competition is the ONLY way to know what it takes to reach the highest level and you do your kids a major disservice if you don't. There are many teams in Ohio who think they are way better then they are and are going to be devastated when they actually play a real team that comes to the party prepared.
To your point about the polls -- voted upon by writers, I believe -- you are absolutely correct that they are often imbalanced in favor of undefeated and 1-loss teams. I'm a soccer coach as well as basketball, and our polls in soccer -- voted upon by coaches, first at the district level by local coaches and then at the state level by district representatives -- are extraordinarily accurate. Yes, add my opinion to yours that VASJ should be #1 (or #2) in the state poll.
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Old 02-19-17, 09:54 AM
SirStanley SirStanley is offline
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Originally Posted by Bball216 View Post
I was reading a post earlier in the week from possibly IRISH600 who made the above statement and it really hit home because I have been saying the exact same thing for years. Being a supporter of a successfull program (VASJ) like I am, I get tired of hearing about how things are unfair every postseason. Is it really unfair or are the teams the AP and fans think are so good really not that good. I can only speak about the programs I know a bit about like our Vikings, SVSM and Cornerstone. You see these schools can care less about a perfect season or a great regular season record. Sure if your in a conference you want to win it and those games are mandated- but it all comes down to what you do with your non conference games. That is what separates the pretenders from the contenders IMO.

When I see VASJ ranked #9 in D3 or SVSM #11 in D2 I laugh. So much is put into wins and loses and less into who you play. Take a glance at the Viking schedule. They played the #1 and #9 teams in the NATION this year along with Northland, CCC (twice), Gilmour, Mentor, SVSM, Benedictine, STA (twice), JFK and Ed's. What would LeBrae's record be with that schedule ? What would any D3 teams record be ? In several of those games VASJ played shorthand- and still was competitive. You need to challenge yourself in the regular season to see how good or bad you really are. Every team makes the playoffs - who cares. Beating up a bunch of farm teams and rolling up the score might make teams and their fans feel good about themselves, but what does it do to get you prepared for tourney action.

If I was a D3 school I would schedule teams that resemble what I might face come playoff time. In many cases when teams play SVSM or VASJ it's the first time all year they have faced a squad like that and they are nowhere near prepared to face that level of talent. Those are the first schools to cry that things are unfair. What does a great regular season really mean if it's a padded record against light weight competition ? The top programs play these crazy schedules against bigger and better schools for many reasons but the main one is to get better. Playing those kind of schedules also works as a recruiting tool because it attracts kids who want to push and challenge themselves. Those are the kids you need anyway. Do you notice that schools like VASJ, SVSM, Ed's only hang State Championship banners ? That's because that is all that matters. They don't hang runner ups, regionals or district championships like many schools do. Challenging your team against the best competition is the ONLY way to know what it takes to reach the highest level and you do your kids a major disservice if you don't. There are many teams in Ohio who think they are way better then they are and are going to be devastated when they actually play a real team that comes to the party prepared.
But the poll is really the least of the issues you're bringing up here, right? We all know the only poll that matters is the one determined by that OHSAA bracket in March. I know when I was coaching, I hated when my team was in the state poll, especially on the high end...and I loved when my team was overlooked. As a D3 (assistant) coach in basketball (I'm also now an assistant in soccer...but was a head coach for 17 years), I very much appreciate your posts on VASJ. First-class program where the kids play with effort that matches the talent level. Last year, was my first year back into coaching after three seasons off (young son), and I watched a couple Viking games during the regular season on Time Warner cable (or maybe just one, STA). You noted that the team was "down" -- and how could it not be from losing the seniors who dominated the state championship game I watched in Columbus the year before? -- but the level of players I saw on TV, and I'm including the freshmen and sophomores, was way above what we've ever had at our school. Now, to beat Beachwood the way you did had to be a monumental effort, but the return to the state championship games wasn't nearly as surprising to me as it may have been to you.

You've brought up many other issues that I'll try to address through the week. I'll reiterate that I very much respect you and your program, though -- largely because of our different perspectives -- I disagree with a number of your points...at least with how they pertain to my school.
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Old 02-19-17, 10:44 AM
CatAlum CatAlum is offline
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Bball 216: I think your comments border on the ridiculous.

Most schools that compete against VASJ in D-III cannot "correct" their situation by playing better competition. Playing against better competition isn't going to elevate Kirtland, Lutheran West, Brooklyn, Wickliffe or Warrensville or Elyria Catholic (schools from your bracket last year) into contender status and it isn't going to turn their so-so guard into Brian Parker or their post player into Carton Bragg or Alonzo Gaffney. VASJ has players (some) who are going to play D-I college basketball. Many/most of their D-III competitors have never had a D-I player on their team or maybe see one every 20-30 years.

I realize you're feelin' pretty good at the moment and your chest is all puffed out (you can see it in your comments). Congrats to VASJ. You're playing well and have had some good wins and have shown growth. That's all good. But, in a perfect world, VASJ should be playing in a higher division...meeting schools like Ignatius, Ed's, maybe SV/SM on the tourney trail. That's not an allegation of any wrongdoing. VASJ works hard at developing their kids, but Gaffney (as one example) arrived on your doorstep as a highly coveted stud basketball prospect, not some 5'4" kid who never picked up a basketball.

One other thing...playing in D-III does no good for VASJ and the development of their players and it makes motivating and working with players more challenging. They probably put more kids in D-I than any school in NEO. They SHOULD be playing schools like Ignatius, Ed's, Garfield, Cl. Hts., etc...and really don't play most of them. I realize the league schedule limits that quite a bit...but VASJ's team and individual players would benefit from a tougher schedule. Maybe you should take your own advice and encourage Babe to go independent and play a tougher schedule?
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Old 02-19-17, 11:02 AM
Bennies'01 Bennies'01 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CatAlum View Post
Bball 216: I think your comments border on the ridiculous.

Most schools that compete against VASJ in D-III cannot "correct" their situation by playing better competition. Playing against better competition isn't going to elevate Kirtland, Lutheran West, Brooklyn, Wickliffe or Warrensville or Elyria Catholic (schools from your bracket last year) into contender status and it isn't going to turn their so-so guard into Brian Parker or their post player into Carton Bragg or Alonzo Gaffney. VASJ has players (some) who are going to play D-I college basketball. Many/most of their D-III competitors have never had a D-I player on their team or maybe see one every 20-30 years.

I realize you're feelin' pretty good at the moment and your chest is all puffed out (you can see it in your comments). Congrats to VASJ. You're playing well and have had some good wins and have shown growth. That's all good. But, in a perfect world, VASJ should be playing in a higher division...meeting schools like Ignatius, Ed's, maybe SV/SM on the tourney trail. That's not an allegation of any wrongdoing. VASJ works hard at developing their kids, but Gaffney (as one example) arrived on your doorstep as a highly coveted stud basketball prospect, not some 5'4" kid who never picked up a basketball.

One other thing...playing in D-III does no good for VASJ and the development of their players and it makes motivating and working with players more challenging. They probably put more kids in D-I than any school in NEO. They SHOULD be playing schools like Ignatius, Ed's, Garfield, Cl. Hts., etc...and really don't play most of them. I realize the league schedule limits that quite a bit...but VASJ's team and individual players would benefit from a tougher schedule. Maybe you should take your own advice and encourage Babe to go independent and play a tougher schedule?


In a sport like basketball, where a few very good players can carry a team to a state title, it's a farce for certain folks to pat themselves on the back for winning championships in DIII or DIV with DI level talent. Basketball might need divisional reform even more than football needs it. There's no need for metropolitan privates to be competing in divisions with the "farm" schools in the first place.
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Old 02-19-17, 11:25 AM
Worm02 Worm02 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CatAlum View Post
Bball 216: I think your comments border on the ridiculous.

Most schools that compete against VASJ in D-III cannot "correct" their situation by playing better competition. Playing against better competition isn't going to elevate Kirtland, Lutheran West, Brooklyn, Wickliffe or Warrensville or Elyria Catholic (schools from your bracket last year) into contender status and it isn't going to turn their so-so guard into Brian Parker or their post player into Carton Bragg or Alonzo Gaffney. VASJ has players (some) who are going to play D-I college basketball. Many/most of their D-III competitors have never had a D-I player on their team or maybe see one every 20-30 years.

I realize you're feelin' pretty good at the moment and your chest is all puffed out (you can see it in your comments). Congrats to VASJ. You're playing well and have had some good wins and have shown growth. That's all good. But, in a perfect world, VASJ should be playing in a higher division...meeting schools like Ignatius, Ed's, maybe SV/SM on the tourney trail. That's not an allegation of any wrongdoing. VASJ works hard at developing their kids, but Gaffney (as one example) arrived on your doorstep as a highly coveted stud basketball prospect, not some 5'4" kid who never picked up a basketball.

One other thing...playing in D-III does no good for VASJ and the development of their players and it makes motivating and working with players more challenging. They probably put more kids in D-I than any school in NEO. They SHOULD be playing schools like Ignatius, Ed's, Garfield, Cl. Hts., etc...and really don't play most of them. I realize the league schedule limits that quite a bit...but VASJ's team and individual players would benefit from a tougher schedule. Maybe you should take your own advice and encourage Babe to go independent and play a tougher schedule?
It's easy to look at where we are in 2017 and say, "It's unfair!" if your school isn't competitive in a certain sport. VASJ spent years building their program up & challenging themselves, so of course, starting a trend on 02/19/2017 isn't going to automatically make up for years of missed opportunities. While it (surprisingly) hasn't been brought up yet, I don't get into the public vs. private school" debate because there plenty of motivational factors, that go far beyond sports, that intrigue parents to send their kids where they send them. That benefits the privates & many open enrollment public schools. I always thought that "competitive balance" was an excuse for schools who can't compete because nobody is incapable of putting in the work to get better. Being years behind the 8 ball doesn't help, but you have to start somewhere.

FWIW, Bball216 brought up LaBrae, who also has kids in their school from Warren (LaBrae is in Levittsburg, which sits off the Northwest side of Warren). They have a nice coach and I think that the success of alum Peyton Aldridge at Davidson is a huge motivational factor for their young athletes. I'm happy for them and I hope that I can make it top one of their tournament games. While I can't expect them to be like a VASJ, SVSM, John Glenn, Dayton Dunbar, etc. caliber school come tournament time, it's seasons like this that will eventually present a higher level of competition. When that time comes, I hope that they'll be ready! They close their regular season with undefeated South Range, which will be great for both communities.
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Old 02-19-17, 11:38 AM
tallmadge H2 dad tallmadge H2 dad is offline
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You can't change schedules and move divisions every time the make up of a team changes. Sometimes, regardless of division, teams are lucky enough to have a short run of extraordinary players. Not every D1 college player plays at the D1 high school level. When you have that special player(s), make the most of it, but it doesn't mean that because you dominated D3 during that time that now you need to change schedules/divisions.
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Old 02-19-17, 11:50 AM
Irish60 Irish60 is offline
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Originally Posted by Bennies'01 View Post


In a sport like basketball, where a few very good players can carry a team to a state title, it's a farce for certain folks to pat themselves on the back for winning championships in DIII or DIV with DI level talent. Basketball might need divisional reform even more than football needs it. There's no need for metropolitan privates to be competing in divisions with the "farm" schools in the first place.
So that gets back to the same dilemma. Is the disparity better resolved by separating metro from rural/ county teams in the playoffs? Or basing the tournament on strength of schedule? I certainly agree with the point that playing better competition makes you a better team. And it certainly better prepares you for the playoffs. But ST. V can play VASJ and St. Eds and St. Ignatius and Jackson and McKinley and CCC and Hoban all within a 30 minute bus ride. There are many more schools in less densely populated parts of the State that couldn't realistically match that type of schedule on travel restrictions alone. And come tournament time, few of those schools are prepared to compete with the metro teams. Some certainly can; and in fact ST. V lost to one such team (John Glenn) last year who might fall into that category. So you again face the same dilemma. For tournament purposes, is it more equitable to classify teams on a public/private, a metro/county or a strength of schedule basis? For basketball, like football, the top teams aren't going to face a legitimate challenge until deep into the playoffs. My Irish, for example, will have faced 10-15 teams as good or better than any team they will face in the playoffs until they maybe match up with your Tigers in the Regional final. And, with all due respect, if ST. V loses to anyone other than Trotwood, I would think k that a pretty big upset. So how do you account for that? How do you close that gap? Or do you?
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Old 02-19-17, 03:05 PM
Bball216 Bball216 is offline
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CatAlum: It figures you would chime in and shocking - we disagree. Look t what schools like Kirtland does in baseball and football. Hell Kirtland played Ed's in baseball last season. Is Cornerstone loaded with D1 talent ? Is Mentor loaded with D1 talent ? How many examples do you want. The top kids all over the state in many instances play against each other in AAU. When all the kids are mixed up what division you play does not matter. Did you ever think that VASJ or even your beloved Wildcats get better because of the level of competition they play just as much as the great coaching they get. Look at the schedule Iggy plays in soccer, baseball, football and basketball. Don't tell me that a kid playing that level of competition win or lose for 4 years does not make him better.

Getting back to Cornerstone. Not exactly a household name 3 years ago. They scheduled every top team that would play them and they got their heads kicked in. Guess what they still do not have D1 talent yet now when they play these top programs the games are closer and they even win some. Do you know what else happened ? They used that experience to be more prepared for their divisions state tournament and last year won it all with a below .500 record. What was the record of many of thems they beat. So you can blow it out your ear that playing better teams does not make you better or helps develop kids. There are examples all over Ohio if you care to look.

There is an above average chance VASJ will be D2 next season. Do you think they will all of a sudden be less competitive ? Sure the road will be tougher because there are schools like CCC, Benny, SVSM and others that have storied and tradition rich programs. But Joe's will adapt and maybe not attend states every year - but will always be in the conversation. Many of the schools I was talking about seem afraid to play bigger schools because of the chance or likelihood of embarrassment. VASJ was blown out on national TV by 30 - does it get worse than that ? So what. Cornerstone was blown out several times last year and won state. There are teams all over Ohio with D1 talent that does not get developed and does not advance as far as they should (ala Shaker Hts). While schools like Mentor take lesser talented kids with less size and compete year in and year out. How many D1 kids did St. Thomas Aquanis have - I will wait for your answer. Those kids work hard and play right. It's not a coincidence they got better and played for a state championship right after joining the NCL. Playing better competition without a doubt makes you better. Maybe not immediately, but eventually.
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Old 02-19-17, 04:10 PM
CatAlum CatAlum is offline
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Originally Posted by Bball216 View Post
Challenging your team against the best competition is the ONLY way to know what it takes to reach the highest level and you do your kids a major disservice if you don't.
Time for VASJ to play an independent schedule...no? It would be a "disservice" to continue playing in that league...no?
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Old 02-19-17, 06:23 PM
Bball216 Bball216 is offline
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There are more sports than just basketball to think of. Unfortunately basketball is the only sport in the school that is elite. The conference is pretty damn good in basketball and will be getting better if it's in fact true Gilmour will be replacing Valley Christian. Just a few short years ago the White Division of the NCL had 3 teams in Columbus competing for state titles. Do you think playing CCC and STA twice and now possibly Gilmour as well weak ? I know you are a Joe's hater and that clouds your thinking. You talk about Joe's playing a tougher independent schedule while your Iggy football team beats up on the best Parma has to offer every year. How much tougher could you make the Joe's basketball schedule. The VASJ out of conference games were the toughest in the state look it up. Northland, Ed's, Gilmour, SVSM, LaLumire, Paul VI, Cathedral Prep, Benedictine, Lutheran East and Mentor. Please tell us if that is weak.
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Old 02-19-17, 07:56 PM
Bball216 Bball216 is offline
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Originally Posted by Bennies'01 View Post


In a sport like basketball, where a few very good players can carry a team to a state title, it's a farce for certain folks to pat themselves on the back for winning championships in DIII or DIV with DI level talent. Basketball might need divisional reform even more than football needs it. There's no need for metropolitan privates to be competing in divisions with the "farm" schools in the first place.
We will see next season when VASJ is D2 and some D2 schools move up to D1. I'm sure you would have no problem with Benny competing with Ed's and Iggy in all your sports. Remember the competitive balance will effect ALL private schools. Joe's has no problem going D2 - that means we are growing as a school. How would you feel about your school going D1 ? That would pretty much stop all your athlete success immediately.
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Old 02-19-17, 08:27 PM
OhioHSBasketballFan OhioHSBasketballFan is offline
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Lutheran East

Coach Jones has 6 transfers this year into a D4 school. Picking off the city schools and using edChoice Vouchers. He has a half dozen AAU teams in his gym during the off-season and does a "Sonny Johnson special" and recruits. How many D4 teams have ever added 6 quality transfers in one year? We are winning states. Just watch.

Should have beaten VASJ.
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Old 02-19-17, 08:39 PM
Bball216 Bball216 is offline
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Really.Joes beat LE without their best player Jerry Higgins at their place. I thought LE was going to really be better when the transfers started playing - that has not been the case. I watched them almost lose to winless Euclid on MLK day. I'm leaning toward Conerstone advancing in D4 just based on coaching, discipline and teamwork. I was surprised how few players LE uses in a game. They only played like 8 kids in the game I saw.
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Old 02-19-17, 11:32 PM
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How many other perennial power D3 schools in any sport draw (and selectively choose) their basketball players from a population of well over 1 million people? Coldwater? Nope. Liberty Benton? Nope. Ottawa Glandorf (D2 now, but back to D3 next year)...Nope. Who VASJ plays in the regular season is meaningless...they bring in new D1 talent every year and when the tourney starts they match up against mostly rural small town teams. They should be the favorite to win the state EVERY year....numbers alone say that.
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Old 02-20-17, 08:13 AM
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How many other perennial power D3 schools in any sport draw (and selectively choose) their basketball players from a population of well over 1 million people? Coldwater? Nope. Liberty Benton? Nope. Ottawa Glandorf (D2 now, but back to D3 next year)...Nope. Who VASJ plays in the regular season is meaningless...they bring in new D1 talent every year and when the tourney starts they match up against mostly rural small town teams. They should be the favorite to win the state EVERY year....numbers alone say that.
Exactly, and when a small farm school from Wayne County complains on just how ridiculous it is they are whiners. I get that publics overuse the recruiting line. And although it is going on I do agree with the privates that they don't need to recruit they built a winning program and the kids come. But that's the difference. Public schools classes form year to year are up and down, privates not so much because they have an influx of talent coming in sometimes from other states (StV). Maybe these kids were or weren't recruited, nonetheless publics don't get that 2-3 players that make a huge difference. There is no way a local public school can have a 10-15 year run by only using their community kids. Building a consistent, successful program and beating your chest is only done by using outside kids. A majority amount of some programs are made up of African Americans when they are a huge minority in the total population, look at these student sections, hmmmm.
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Old 02-20-17, 11:04 AM
Bennies'01 Bennies'01 is offline
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Originally Posted by Irish60 View Post
So that gets back to the same dilemma. Is the disparity better resolved by separating metro from rural/ county teams in the playoffs? Or basing the tournament on strength of schedule? I certainly agree with the point that playing better competition makes you a better team. And it certainly better prepares you for the playoffs. But ST. V can play VASJ and St. Eds and St. Ignatius and Jackson and McKinley and CCC and Hoban all within a 30 minute bus ride. There are many more schools in less densely populated parts of the State that couldn't realistically match that type of schedule on travel restrictions alone. And come tournament time, few of those schools are prepared to compete with the metro teams. Some certainly can; and in fact ST. V lost to one such team (John Glenn) last year who might fall into that category. So you again face the same dilemma. For tournament purposes, is it more equitable to classify teams on a public/private, a metro/county or a strength of schedule basis? For basketball, like football, the top teams aren't going to face a legitimate challenge until deep into the playoffs. My Irish, for example, will have faced 10-15 teams as good or better than any team they will face in the playoffs until they maybe match up with your Tigers in the Regional final. And, with all due respect, if ST. V loses to anyone other than Trotwood, I would think k that a pretty big upset. So how do you account for that? How do you close that gap? Or do you?
Truthfully, I think the unrealistic solution I'd like to see is to eliminate divisions altogether in basketball (and other sports with small teams) and have an old-school Indiana-style tournament. Short of that, some sort of a formula accounting for open-enrollment, geographic-draw, and local population factors might be considered.

Bengals. (And they have to get by the Ironmen, which is no guarantee.)
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Old 02-20-17, 11:17 AM
Bennies'01 Bennies'01 is offline
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Originally Posted by Bball216 View Post
CatAlum: It figures you would chime in and shocking - we disagree. Look t what schools like Kirtland does in baseball and football. Hell Kirtland played Ed's in baseball last season. Is Cornerstone loaded with D1 talent ? Is Mentor loaded with D1 talent ? How many examples do you want. The top kids all over the state in many instances play against each other in AAU. When all the kids are mixed up what division you play does not matter. Did you ever think that VASJ or even your beloved Wildcats get better because of the level of competition they play just as much as the great coaching they get. Look at the schedule Iggy plays in soccer, baseball, football and basketball. Don't tell me that a kid playing that level of competition win or lose for 4 years does not make him better.

Getting back to Cornerstone. Not exactly a household name 3 years ago. They scheduled every top team that would play them and they got their heads kicked in. Guess what they still do not have D1 talent yet now when they play these top programs the games are closer and they even win some. Do you know what else happened ? They used that experience to be more prepared for their divisions state tournament and last year won it all with a below .500 record. What was the record of many of thems they beat. So you can blow it out your ear that playing better teams does not make you better or helps develop kids. There are examples all over Ohio if you care to look.

There is an above average chance VASJ will be D2 next season. Do you think they will all of a sudden be less competitive ? Sure the road will be tougher because there are schools like CCC, Benny, SVSM and others that have storied and tradition rich programs. But Joe's will adapt and maybe not attend states every year - but will always be in the conversation. Many of the schools I was talking about seem afraid to play bigger schools because of the chance or likelihood of embarrassment. VASJ was blown out on national TV by 30 - does it get worse than that ? So what. Cornerstone was blown out several times last year and won state. There are teams all over Ohio with D1 talent that does not get developed and does not advance as far as they should (ala Shaker Hts). While schools like Mentor take lesser talented kids with less size and compete year in and year out. How many D1 kids did St. Thomas Aquanis have - I will wait for your answer. Those kids work hard and play right. It's not a coincidence they got better and played for a state championship right after joining the NCL. Playing better competition without a doubt makes you better. Maybe not immediately, but eventually.
First of all, Cornerstone certainly has at least one player that has received DI college offers.

Second, as mentioned and some keep ignoring, overall school size is irrelevant in basketball where a team can get by with a rotation of as few as 8 players, and can be really competitive if just 2 of those players are highly-talented. Just because a school is larger does not mean they are better. In a sport like football where numbers matter there is some correlation between school enrollment and competitiveness, but we have this antiquated notion that it matters in other sports. Heck your Kirtland vs. St. Edward baseball example is meaningless considering the fact that a few outstanding pitchers can carry any team far in that sport at the high school level.
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Old 02-20-17, 11:19 AM
Bennies'01 Bennies'01 is offline
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Originally Posted by CatAlum View Post
Time for VASJ to play an independent schedule...no? It would be a "disservice" to continue playing in that league...no?
The NCL should consider adjusting divisions by sport. With SVSM entering the league next year, the top basketball division might look like this:

Benedictine
CCC
Hoban
Lake Catholic
SVSM
VASJ

Play a double-round robin and no crossover games.
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Old 02-20-17, 11:25 AM
Bennies'01 Bennies'01 is offline
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Originally Posted by Bball216 View Post
We will see next season when VASJ is D2 and some D2 schools move up to D1. I'm sure you would have no problem with Benny competing with Ed's and Iggy in all your sports. Remember the competitive balance will effect ALL private schools. Joe's has no problem going D2 - that means we are growing as a school. How would you feel about your school going D1 ? That would pretty much stop all your athlete success immediately.
I'd be fine with Benedictine playing in DI across the board in most sports except football. Football is the one sport where the argument of enrollment-influenced divisions is most defensible. But Benedictine, when at its peak in football, certainly could hold its own in DII.

Benedictine would still be successful athletically. The school hasn't exactly dominated any other sports recently. The last non-football title occurred in 2001 in track.
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Old 02-20-17, 11:34 AM
Irish60 Irish60 is offline
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Originally Posted by Bennies'01 View Post
Truthfully, I think the unrealistic solution I'd like to see is to eliminate divisions altogether in basketball (and other sports with small teams) and have an old-school Indiana-style tournament. Short of that, some sort of a formula accounting for open-enrollment, geographic-draw, and local population factors might be considered.

Bengals. (And they have to get by the Ironmen, which is no guarantee.)
Bengals! I knew that! Sorry for the slight. At least I was in the right part of the animal kingdom!
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Old 02-20-17, 11:38 AM
SLAGuy SLAGuy is offline
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This reminds me of one of my favorite student section chants. When a player misses a wideopen layup, they chant:

"Next time dunk it!"

Poor kid misses a wideopen layup, probably can't touch the rim, and the student section rubs it in by telling him to do the impossible.



Telling D3 schools to schedule better and they will become champions is just as ridiculous. You will NEVER see a rural D3 school with 4-5 D1 basketball players. It's physically impossible. The only schools that have this opportunity are within driving distance of large metropolitan areas. The schools aren't creating extremely tall, athletic players. Those kids are choosing to play together at one school. Consider yourself lucky if it happens at your school.
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Old 02-20-17, 12:44 PM
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Auggie Auggie is offline
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Originally Posted by SLAGuy View Post
This reminds me of one of my favorite student section chants. When a player misses a wideopen layup, they chant:

"Next time dunk it!"

Poor kid misses a wideopen layup, probably can't touch the rim, and the student section rubs it in by telling him to do the impossible.



Telling D3 schools to schedule better and they will become champions is just as ridiculous. You will NEVER see a rural D3 school with 4-5 D1 basketball players. It's physically impossible. The only schools that have this opportunity are within driving distance of large metropolitan areas. The schools aren't creating extremely tall, athletic players. Those kids are choosing to play together at one school. Consider yourself lucky if it happens at your school.
I know they are Div II but is New Concord John Glenn considered a rural school? They seemed to pull together a fine group of basketball players last year.
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Old 02-20-17, 01:12 PM
bluengold bluengold is offline
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Originally Posted by Auggie View Post
I know they are Div II but is New Concord John Glenn considered a rural school? They seemed to pull together a fine group of basketball players last year.
Last year, John Glenn had at least 2 transfers from Zanesville HS (Div 1) for their junior and senior seasons - Austin Blatt and Matt Weir.
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Old 02-20-17, 01:36 PM
eastisbest eastisbest is offline
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I would think there are a lot more schools, what with charters, downsized urban schools (with some thinning), moves to suburbs... That has to lead to a thinning of talent in the coaching ranks and such, no? Is the University system producing more teachers/coaches than in past years?
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Old 02-20-17, 02:51 PM
SLAGuy SLAGuy is offline
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Originally Posted by Auggie View Post
I know they are Div II but is New Concord John Glenn considered a rural school? They seemed to pull together a fine group of basketball players last year.
A fine group but only one D1 basketball player:

Drew Rackley (UNC Asheville - Division 1)
Austin Blatt (Hiram College)
Tanner Slack (Mount Union)
Matt Weir (Air Force Prep Academy)
Jah Blevins (Pickerington Central High School)

That is the class of a lifetime at a rural school and only one D1 basketball player. A far outside chance at two if Jah Blevins improves significantly at PC. How many D1 players did they play in the state championship against the big city team?
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Old 02-20-17, 03:28 PM
tcgobucks tcgobucks is offline
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Originally Posted by SLAGuy View Post
A fine group but only one D1 basketball player:

Drew Rackley (UNC Asheville - Division 1)
Austin Blatt (Hiram College)
Tanner Slack (Mount Union)
Matt Weir (Air Force Prep Academy)
Jah Blevins (Pickerington Central High School)

That is the class of a lifetime at a rural school and only one D1 basketball player. A far outside chance at two if Jah Blevins improves significantly at PC. How many D1 players did they play in the state championship against the big city team?

Another example....Ottawa Glandorf has 3 state titles since 2004.....and has made it to regionals 5 or 6 other times. There have been TWO D1 players come out of that program in that time...the Pollitz twins (2004 grads) who went to Miami Univ. Several D2 and D3 guys, but only 2 D1's.
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Old 02-20-17, 03:48 PM
CCA Fan CCA Fan is offline
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4 or 5 D1 players on a high school team? Where?

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Originally Posted by tcgobucks View Post
Another example....Ottawa Glandorf has 3 state titles since 2004.....and has made it to regionals 5 or 6 other times. There have been TWO D1 players come out of that program in that time...the Pollitz twins (2004 grads) who went to Miami Univ. Several D2 and D3 guys, but only 2 D1's.
Garfield Hts. last year. yes.

Look at Mentor, do they have 3 D1 college basketball players in all of Krisanic's years?

4 or 5 D1 players on 1 team? Who is that?
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Old 02-20-17, 04:24 PM
Irish60 Irish60 is offline
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Originally Posted by SLAGuy View Post
A fine group but only one D1 basketball player:

Drew Rackley (UNC Asheville - Division 1)
Austin Blatt (Hiram College)
Tanner Slack (Mount Union)
Matt Weir (Air Force Prep Academy)
Jah Blevins (Pickerington Central High School)

That is the class of a lifetime at a rural school and only one D1 basketball player. A far outside chance at two if Jah Blevins improves significantly at PC. How many D1 players did they play in the state championship against the big city team?
In the finals, they beat a STVM team with three. Henry Baddeley (Butler), John Williams (Robert Morris) and Jayvon Graves (Buffalo).
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Old 02-20-17, 09:48 PM
Bball216 Bball216 is offline
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Results do not happen overnight. You need the right freshman, JV and Varsity staff to BUILD a program. It can be done but it's work. Many schools don't put in the effort to BUILD a program - it's easier to complain. Please tell me how many D1 players Mentor or St. Thomas Aquanis have - zero. What they have perfected over the years is a playing style and a system. They developed a system for the kind of kids they get. It takes extreme conditioning and discipline to do this - more effort than most school staffs are willing to do. How did Mentor win state in 2013 with no kid over 6'4 in D1 ? How did STA end up state runner up with an even smaller squad ? Only 4 teams a year WIN state. While I agree not every school has a chance to win state, many schools can absolutely play at a higher level and compete with better teams. You do not need D1 talent to win state. VASJ had zero D1 talent last season and was state Runner Up. They won with coaching, hustle and heart. Every team can have those 3 qualities. I see teams with D1 talent lose every year to schools with less talent. It's much easier to make excuses as to why you can't win and how the system is broken then it is to put in the work to make yourself better.
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