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  #691  
Old 04-11-19, 07:23 PM
clarkgriswold clarkgriswold is online now
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Interesting MMQB article re-drafting the first round of last year's draft. Browns end up with Mayfield and Barkley. Hmmmmmm.

https://www.si.com/nfl/2019/04/11/20...on-vander-esch
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  #692  
Old 04-11-19, 07:25 PM
Raymo Raymo is offline
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Schefter claiming Dorsey's trying to trade back up into the 1st round.
Whats he looking for with a first?
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  #693  
Old 04-12-19, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by clarkgriswold View Post
Interesting MMQB article re-drafting the first round of last year's draft. Browns end up with Mayfield and Barkley. Hmmmmmm.

https://www.si.com/nfl/2019/04/11/20...on-vander-esch
If Barkley falls to #4, perhaps, but that wasn't the ongoing argument. Mayfield should've been the pick 1000x's before Barkley at #1, not take Barkley at #1 and "hope" BM falls to #4. I still like what they have in Chubb but don't think Ward's going to have a very long shelf life in the league.
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  #694  
Old 04-12-19, 08:46 AM
clarkgriswold clarkgriswold is online now
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If Barkley falls to #4, perhaps, but that wasn't the ongoing argument. Mayfield should've been the pick 1000x's before Barkley at #1, not take Barkley at #1 and "hope" BM falls to #4. I still like what they have in Chubb but don't think Ward's going to have a very long shelf life in the league.
I like Ward but he has to put on some muscle and exercise better judgment in how he tackles or he'll be the short timer you suggest.
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  #695  
Old 04-12-19, 12:16 PM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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If Barkley falls to #4, perhaps, but that wasn't the ongoing argument. Mayfield should've been the pick 1000x's before Barkley at #1, not take Barkley at #1 and "hope" BM falls to #4. I still like what they have in Chubb but don't think Ward's going to have a very long shelf life in the league.
Yeah, taking a chance that the Jets didn't prefer Mayfield over Darnold or that the Giants wouldn't decide to take Mayfield to replace Eli would have been absolutely stupid if you truly think he's the #1 QB option. Not to mention Miami or someone else could make an offer to move up. Stupid whatifery.
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  #696  
Old 04-12-19, 12:25 PM
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I like Ward but he has to put on some muscle and exercise better judgment in how he tackles or he'll be the short timer you suggest.
A tendency toward concussion is what it is, and can only be addressed by technique and avoiding the short, sharp, shock. 20 lbs of pure muscle won't solve that. Ward's game is about speed and quickness, so if bulking up a bit comprises that, he is neither here nor there, anyway.

I like the Seattle "gator wrasslin'" tackling technique that seems to be about grasping and twisting, to break down the opponent's balance like judo. Increases in grip strength and the tailor's muscle won't slow him at all. You want that hand strength playing the ball or stripping, anyway. That's the answer for Denzel Ward's ongoing career, IMHO. It's a step beyond "heads up" that Williams referred to. Hopefully he's been working on the Seattle style.
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  #697  
Old 04-13-19, 07:01 AM
joesports joesports is offline
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Originally Posted by cabezadecaballo View Post
A tendency toward concussion is what it is, and can only be addressed by technique and avoiding the short, sharp, shock. 20 lbs of pure muscle won't solve that. Ward's game is about speed and quickness, so if bulking up a bit comprises that, he is neither here nor there, anyway.

I like the Seattle "gator wrasslin'" tackling technique that seems to be about grasping and twisting, to break down the opponent's balance like judo. Increases in grip strength and the tailor's muscle won't slow him at all. You want that hand strength playing the ball or stripping, anyway. That's the answer for Denzel Ward's ongoing career, IMHO. It's a step beyond "heads up" that Williams referred to. Hopefully he's been working on the Seattle style.
Ruby tackling ... or shoulder tackling ... it is what high school coaches have been teaching for as long as I can remember ... slide the head to the side and make contact with the shoulder ... you need more than “grip strength” ... it wouldn’t hurt him to get a little stronger ... now days weight training does not slow down an athlete ... it actually makes them faster if done properly ... one of my former players went from a 220 lb linebacker in HS to a 280 lb DE in college and bettered his 40 time from 4.8 to 4.7 in the process ... Ward needs and will get stronger and faster by just putting in the time the NFL requires ... along with better tackling techniques.

https://www.seahawks.com/video/2016-seahawks-tackling
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  #698  
Old 04-13-19, 08:37 AM
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Ruby tackling ... or shoulder tackling ... it is what high school coaches have been teaching for as long as I can remember ... slide the head to the side and make contact with the shoulder ... you need more than “grip strength” ... it wouldn’t hurt him to get a little stronger ... now days weight training does not slow down an athlete ... it actually makes them faster if done properly ... one of my former players went from a 220 lb linebacker in HS to a 280 lb DE in college and bettered his 40 time from 4.8 to 4.7 in the process ... Ward needs and will get stronger and faster by just putting in the time the NFL requires ... along with better tackling techniques.

https://www.seahawks.com/video/2016-seahawks-tackling
I remember a part of a John Madden book where he discussed Cliff Branch and his early inability to catch the ball. With his speed he'd get behind everybody but would then drop the pass. They figured out that he was running so hard that he was out of control and told him he's still be faster than everyone at 90%, he toned it down to get under control and became a great player.

I think Ward could add some muscle with proper training and lose little if any speed and if he did lose a little would still be plenty fast. A little more mass and better technique (and thought processes) could keep him on the field. Otherwise, he's a one dimensional, oft injured, cover guy.
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  #699  
Old 04-13-19, 08:56 PM
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Ruby tackling ... or shoulder tackling ... it is what high school coaches have been teaching for as long as I can remember ... slide the head to the side and make contact with the shoulder ... you need more than “grip strength” ... it wouldn’t hurt him to get a little stronger ... now days weight training does not slow down an athlete ... it actually makes them faster if done properly ... one of my former players went from a 220 lb linebacker in HS to a 280 lb DE in college and bettered his 40 time from 4.8 to 4.7 in the process ... Ward needs and will get stronger and faster by just putting in the time the NFL requires ... along with better tackling techniques.

https://www.seahawks.com/video/2016-seahawks-tackling
2016^, bro. I didn't really watch it once I saw that..... And Ward was like 4.31. That's a whole different animal than a bit-too-slow LB


If you didn't notice that their DBs tackled differently last season, I don't know what else I can really say to you about Seattle. The grip strength comes in when you slip more than just the head to the side. They grasp, wrap, leg wrap, twist and spin. It avoids the sudden stopping of one's dome, Holmes.

When two objects are moving in different directions at the same speed and run into each other, the heavier one has greater force - mass x speed = force. He could become as heavy as a few more receivers, but he really can't add much and be as reactive and shifty. That is his game. He is here to cover the #1 receiver. Ward's potential concussions likely aren't going to be from tackling receivers, anyway, though. He can still be concussed any time his momentum is rapidly stopped and that short,sharp, shock of brain striking inside of skull occurs. We can be concussed in a car wreck just being caught by a seat belt, without our head striking anything.

Last edited by cabezadecaballo; 04-13-19 at 09:08 PM..
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  #700  
Old 04-13-19, 09:01 PM
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Originally Posted by clarkgriswold View Post
I remember a part of a John Madden book where he discussed Cliff Branch and his early inability to catch the ball. With his speed he'd get behind everybody but would then drop the pass. They figured out that he was running so hard that he was out of control and told him he's still be faster than everyone at 90%, he toned it down to get under control and became a great player.

I think Ward could add some muscle with proper training and lose little if any speed and if he did lose a little would still be plenty fast. A little more mass and better technique (and thought processes) could keep him on the field. Otherwise, he's a one dimensional, oft injured, cover guy.
Branch wasn't reacting to another player in the same way a DB does. I'm pretty sure he knew his route when the huddle broke. Not the same thing, really, at all.

That said, a little more mass would be good, for general durability as much as anything. If he gains enough mass to actually reduce concussion risks, he'll be a short LB.
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  #701  
Old 04-14-19, 06:47 AM
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2016^, bro. I didn't really watch it once I saw that..... And Ward was like 4.31. That's a whole different animal than a bit-too-slow LB


If you didn't notice that their DBs tackled differently last season, I don't know what else I can really say to you about Seattle. The grip strength comes in when you slip more than just the head to the side. They grasp, wrap, leg wrap, twist and spin. It avoids the sudden stopping of one's dome, Holmes.

When two objects are moving in different directions at the same speed and run into each other, the heavier one has greater force - mass x speed = force. He could become as heavy as a few more receivers, but he really can't add much and be as reactive and shifty. That is his game. He is here to cover the #1 receiver. Ward's potential concussions likely aren't going to be from tackling receivers, anyway, though. He can still be concussed any time his momentum is rapidly stopped and that short,sharp, shock of brain striking inside of skull occurs. We can be concussed in a car wreck just being caught by a seat belt, without our head striking anything.
Wow ... what an impressive line of BS to try to save face ... just stop ... please no more about “grip strength” ... it is a shoulder tackle ... yes the also rap up ... it is all explain in the 2016 video ... and yes that is the basic way they are still teaching ... it was the expanded (up dated) version from their original version that came out in 2014 ... and the concussion part, bravo ... really informative ... I had no idea how that worked ... I know that this is just going to set you off more and you are going to attack me with twice as much BS ... and to let you know, I’m done arguing with you about how to tackle ... not worth my time ... grip strength

https://footballdevelopment.com/shoulder-tackling
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  #702  
Old 04-14-19, 06:53 AM
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Also ... people get a clue about strength training ... if done properly it doesn’t slow you down ... it actually makes you faster ... that is why we are now seeing all these DL running sub 4.8 forties
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  #703  
Old 04-14-19, 09:27 AM
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Wow ... what an impressive line of BS to try to save face ... just stop ... please no more about “grip strength” ... it is a shoulder tackle ... yes the also rap up ... it is all explain in the 2016 video ... and yes that is the basic way they are still teaching ... it was the expanded (up dated) version from their original version that came out in 2014 ... and the concussion part, bravo ... really informative ... I had no idea how that worked ... I know that this is just going to set you off more and you are going to attack me with twice as much BS ... and to let you know, I’m done arguing with you about how to tackle ... not worth my time ... grip strength

https://footballdevelopment.com/shoulder-tackling
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Also ... people get a clue about strength training ... if done properly it doesn’t slow you down ... it actually makes you faster ... that is why we are now seeing all these DL running sub 4.8 forties
Dude, are you an un-helped dyslexic or have a reading comprehension problem or something ? Perhaps you're the Poster Boy for Multiply Concussed Brain Fog ? What ever your particular affliction is, it appears to result in projection of your personal motives on others

You clearly have ALL the info Maybe you just can't or are too stubborn to put it all together ? I'll type this just in case. Ready ? Once concussed, the brain becomes more vulnerable.

Stop with the generic tackling treatises. They DON'T support a cogent rebuttal because they don't properly address Ward's problem. I've spent considerable time trying to get through to you with two thoughts - traditional tackling may never prevent concussion for some. It can only minimize the risk a bit. He needs to grasp, wrap, and "throw" with his body (shift center of gravity without impact like judo), not strike with his body. This is exactly what the Seattle DBs are trying to do most of the time now. Watch and see.

The second one is tougher. It's a compound issue, so focus. Follow the bread crumbs, Hansel, and don't lose your way now. Don't cherry-pick one point to pretend to rebut my whole statement so you can raise your hand in victory, either, you punch-drunk palooka I'm on to your "face-saving" games. Focus.

Here we go. Ready ?

Ward's game requires a shiftiness that too much bulk will mess up. Peak Bo Jackson could run a 40 with Denzel. Bo could not ever be a top cover corner, as freakishly athletic as he was, but he could maybe have been the best SS ever even if he'd lost all his fingers to frostbite and couldn't hold a football as a RB. There IS a CB body, whether or not you can comprehend it. Trying to make Ward a 85% scale model Bo won't work. Will Ward ever be a SS ? Not one very often eligible from concussion protocol. SHOULD Ward add a little size and strength ? Absolutely. I've agreed on that all along. 10 or maybe even 15 pounds would be great. (He may not EVER have the metabolism to do even that much the right way) Will that added muscle prevent him from being concussed while helping out with RBs and TEs ? NOPE. Will more than a few more pounds compromise his game ? Probably.


You should block me, joe. We've been down this road before. I won't suffer stupid, so I won't stop. You may have a stroke or a heart attack if this escalates like last time.

Last edited by cabezadecaballo; 04-14-19 at 09:54 AM..
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  #704  
Old 04-14-19, 03:14 PM
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When I didn’t think it could get funnier than “grip strength” ... you never cease to amaze me ... with your total lack of knowledge on this subject ... “grasp, wrap, and throw” ... this is called arm tackling ... the very thing that makes someone a bad tackler ... the technique you are trying to explain is the Hawk & Roll tackle ... you can’t take your body completely out of it ... the idea is to take your head out of the tackle ... and lessen the chance of a concussion





You are still making initial contact with the shoulder ... then wrapping and rolling ... players who don’t use their body when tackling have a simple name ... poor tackler.

Second ... you say I have a comprehension problem ... where did I ever say Ward needed to bulk up like Bo? ... all I have said is modern weight lifting principles do not slow an athlete down ... in fact in most cases it makes them faster (and quicker) ... they combine strength training with stretching (stretchbands) ... to improve both strength & flexibility ... and your right about one thing ... this training would add about 10 to 15 pounds to Ward ... which would help lessen the chance of injury ... something he needs.
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  #705  
Old 04-14-19, 05:51 PM
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When I didn’t think it could get funnier than “grip strength” ... you never cease to amaze me ... with your total lack of knowledge on this subject ... “grasp, wrap, and throw” ... this is called arm tackling ... the very thing that makes someone a bad tackler ... the technique you are trying to explain is the Hawk & Roll tackle ... you can’t take your body completely out of it ... the idea is to take your head out of the tackle ... and lessen the chance of a concussion
..........

You are still making initial contact with the shoulder ... then wrapping and rolling ... players who don’t use their body when tackling have a simple name ... poor tackler.

Second ... you say I have a comprehension problem ... where did I ever say Ward needed to bulk up like Bo? ... all I have said is modern weight lifting principles do not slow an athlete down ... in fact in most cases it makes them faster (and quicker) ... they combine strength training with stretching (stretchbands) ... to improve both strength & flexibility ... and your right about one thing ... this training would add about 10 to 15 pounds to Ward ... which would help lessen the chance of injury ... something he needs.
I'm right about the whole thing, joe


No one said Ward needs to be Bo, obviously. If you had any reading comprehension, you'd realize I cited Bo as an extreme example of a very fast man in a large body to illustrate that no weight gain could help with concussions, but even if it did, he couldn't cover as well any more than one of the greatest natural athletes in history would be able to cover. You must have had your bell rung so much they called you Westminster.


Watch actual Seahawks games, and you'll see DBs rolling without driving the shoulder. Grip strength and leg wrap are hugely important. I don't search training films to contradict someone, but it says a lot about you. Still salty, huh ?



Poor Denzel Ward will just have to latch and roll while The Great joesports disapproves of his tackling technique.

Maybe Quasimodo, not Westminster ?

Last edited by cabezadecaballo; 04-14-19 at 06:03 PM..
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  #706  
Old 04-14-19, 07:55 PM
clarkgriswold clarkgriswold is online now
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Ummmm, not that I want a part in this p!$$!ng contest, where did I connect his body mass to his concussion issue? My point is that he will be less injury prone if he had a little more muscle and exercised better judgment in tackling.

Greg Williams hit on these issues very early in the season.

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/201...liams_stu.html
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  #707  
Old 04-14-19, 08:55 PM
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Sorry clark you are 100% correct ... I was simply trying to point out that getting stronger and using a better tackling technique would help lesson his chances of injury ... but just can’t let the ideas that proper weight training slows a person down and that grip strength is the key to tackling.
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Old 04-14-19, 09:12 PM
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... as for you cabe ... I didn’t need to search the internet for video to prove you wrong (again) ... the videos I have posted are pretty much the standard used now by the vast majority of football coaches ... in fact the Seattle tackling technique is so universally recognized as one of the best videos on tackling that USA Football has adopted most of their principles as the main point of emphasis on tackling (called Shoulder Tackling System) ... but you still believe that grip strength and not using your body to tackling is the key to tackling ... watch the video ... it refers to using the shoulder at least 8 to 10 times in the first two minutes alone ... it is not just my idea on how to tackle ... almost universal ... and I don’t see or hear grip strength mentioned once.

https://www.seahawks.com/video/2016-seahawks-tackling ... count the number of times they refer to using the shoulder

https://footballdevelopment.com/shoulder-tackling
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  #709  
Old 04-14-19, 09:32 PM
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Ummmm, not that I want a part in this p!$$!ng contest, where did I connect his body mass to his concussion issue? My point is that he will be less injury prone if he had a little more muscle and exercised better judgment in tackling.

Greg Williams hit on these issues very early in the season.

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/201...liams_stu.html
I guess I missed his injury below the neck. I never realized that there was cause to consider Ward injury prone outside of his helmet.
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  #710  
Old 04-14-19, 09:33 PM
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... as for you cabe ... I didn’t need to search the internet for video to prove you wrong (again) ... the videos I have posted are pretty much the standard used now by the vast majority of football coaches ... in fact the Seattle tackling technique is so universally recognized as one of the best videos on tackling that USA Football has adopted most of their principles as the main point of emphasis on tackling (called Shoulder Tackling System) ... but you still believe that grip strength and not using your body to tackling is the key to tackling ... watch the video ... it refers to using the shoulder at least 8 to 10 times in the first two minutes alone ... it is not just my idea on how to tackle ... almost universal ... and I don’t see or hear grip strength mentioned once.

https://www.seahawks.com/video/2016-seahawks-tackling ... count the number of times they refer to using the shoulder

https://footballdevelopment.com/shoulder-tackling
Tell yourself you won. Good job, Westy !


If Ward drives his body into a RB or TE that he isn't running down from behind, he stands a decent chance of entering the protocol. I expressly stated that he needs to grab, arm wrap, leg wrap, and roll. I can't simplify it any further for you.
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  #711  
Old 04-15-19, 07:15 AM
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Ummmm, not that I want a part in this p!$$!ng contest
Can we just get back to things that are important, like whether Mayfield or Barkley should've been taken #1 overall?
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  #712  
Old 04-15-19, 08:54 AM
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Can we just get back to things that are important, like whether Mayfield or Barkley should've been taken #1 overall?
The last thing I'd want to do is wish the summer away, but Gawd Dang it seems like FOREVER until the Browns get started again!!
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  #713  
Old 04-15-19, 09:45 AM
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The last thing I'd want to do is wish the summer away, but Gawd Dang it seems like FOREVER until the Browns get started again!!
I didn't want last season to end because I knew we were going to have to watch some bad NBA & MLB play from the other teams, which sounds very odd.
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Old 04-15-19, 11:14 AM
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I didn't want last season to end because I knew we were going to have to watch some bad NBA & MLB play from the other teams, which sounds very odd.
What a flip of the script.


I've heard the phrase "A Reversal of Fortune!" used as a euphemism when one that has drunk too much while being the life of the party rapidly ducks out to spew. It seems appropriate when the competitive levels of our pro sports teams completely reverse so rapidly that the Indians' current offense and the Cavs past season both make me want to puke.
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Old 04-15-19, 11:22 AM
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What a flip of the script.


I've heard the phrase "A Reversal of Fortune!" used as a euphemism when one that has drunk too much while being the life of the party rapidly ducks out to spew. It seems appropriate when the competitive levels of our pro sports teams completely reverse so rapidly that the Indians' current offense and the Cavs past season both make me want to puke.
It's mind boggling what Dorsey has done with this roster since joining them. Obviously finally having a franchise QB doesn't hurt.

The Cavs could be set up well (draft-wise) but I doubt I see them playing for another ring in my lifetime. The Tribe is cyclical. They will suck for a while then (hopefully) their new prospects will emerge but I think they have wasted this pitching staff. I think Kluber's about to fall off a cliff and Carrasco looks like garbage, so far. Bauer will be gone which means Clevinger's going to be the likely ace.
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  #716  
Old 04-15-19, 11:28 AM
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What do they say on the field?

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  #717  
Old 04-15-19, 11:34 AM
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It's mind boggling what Dorsey has done with this roster since joining them. Obviously finally having a franchise QB doesn't hurt.

The Cavs could be set up well (draft-wise) but I doubt I see them playing for another ring in my lifetime. The Tribe is cyclical. They will suck for a while then (hopefully) their new prospects will emerge but I think they have wasted this pitching staff. I think Kluber's about to fall off a cliff and Carrasco looks like garbage, so far. Bauer will be gone which means Clevinger's going to be the likely ace.
I still think LB could use a boost, but the thought of entering this draft as strong as the roster is now is really like a bolt out of the blue. Drafting "Best Player Available" was something for other teams, yet they can credibly do so now.
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  #718  
Old 04-16-19, 11:01 AM
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BR1986FB BR1986FB is offline
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Official schedule release tomorrow night
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Old 04-16-19, 12:24 PM
Raymo Raymo is offline
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Old 04-16-19, 12:28 PM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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