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  #61  
Old 02-06-19, 09:28 AM
ceebass13 ceebass13 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrroosevelt View Post
Do you know if that $360K included scholarships? My guess it that it did not. Just curious.
That number mentioned was just the operating budget of the football program. I don't believe that included scholarships.
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  #62  
Old 02-06-19, 10:27 AM
NEOballer NEOballer is offline
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Heres a link to Coach Thomas' interview on 92.3

https://923thefan.radio.com/articles...eing-shut-down
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  #63  
Old 02-06-19, 10:55 AM
MCGal MCGal is offline
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The school was facing losing their accreditation ... there really wasn't a choice here. Now the method and timing of announcing it? That's pure shady.
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  #64  
Old 02-06-19, 11:08 AM
lc5397 lc5397 is offline
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What a scholarship "costs" and what it is "worth" are two different things. Sticker price at Malone is $40,000 at Malone but it doesn't actually cost the school $40,000 to give out those scholarships.

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Originally Posted by mrroosevelt View Post
Just did some quick and easy research. If Malone offers 20 scholarships, which are worth about $40,000 each (tuition/room/board) that comes to a cost of $800,000. Add in coaches salaries, equipment, insurance, etc. and the cost is well in excess of $1,000,000. While I have never been to a Malone football game, I would assume their gate receipts for home games are less than $15,000 to $20,000 per year. The bottom line from the financial perspective almost certainly did this program in. Contrary to popular belief, collegiate football is not the cash cow people think it is. Outside of your DI power programs, football is often the biggest financial loser a college athletic program at DII and smaller DI programs. Ever been to a Kent or Akron football game? I assume Kent and Akron give out the full 85 scholarships allowed by FBS programs. (Not sure...just guessing.) . If they do, those two programs lose a huge amount of money every year.
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  #65  
Old 02-06-19, 11:46 AM
Stark Born & Bred Stark Born & Bred is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Slippery View Post
The Pioneer Park project was primarily intended for baseball but was also to include multi-use fields for football practice (games still to be played at Benson), softball, soccer, intramurals, etc. However, I was told months ago that the donor pulled the remainder of the funding for the project. The project got as far as to erect a large retaining wall that's visible from the highway, but I have no idea what's on top or behind it right now.

Malone obviously existed for a long time without a football program, so they obviously had plenty of other programming to attract past students. We'll see if they can do it again, but the discontinuation of the football program appears to be a symptom of a larger financial issue at the university.

When one examines the number of schools listed in the College Board/AP testing catalog for where kids can send their standardized test scores, you begin to wonder how all of these schools can sustain themselves in the face of tuition that is increasing at rates exceeding both population growth and many peoples' income growth. Plus, not all of these schools have massive endowments to maintain affordability and get them through the rougher patches when enrollment takes a nosedive. Something eventually has to give.

Aside from Antioch College closing down for a few years in the late '00s, has any other Ohio college gone out of business in recent years?
Here is a link to the original plan:
https://www.malone.edu/news/details/...oneUniversity/

https://www.cantonrep.com/news/20170...t-pioneer-park
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  #66  
Old 02-06-19, 11:48 AM
Stark Born & Bred Stark Born & Bred is offline
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Originally Posted by ceebass13 View Post
That number mentioned was just the operating budget of the football program. I don't believe that included scholarships.
I was always under the belief that athletic programs at non-scholarship schools and schools that give only partial scholarships (like Malone) are NEVER designed to make money or even be revenue neutral. Rather, they are suppose to drive enrollment (and the tuition and room and board dollars that follow those students). If a program - any program - doesn't do that, you have a problem financially.
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  #67  
Old 02-06-19, 11:57 AM
Bad Blake Bad Blake is offline
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Originally Posted by mrroosevelt View Post
Just did some quick and easy research. If Malone offers 20 scholarships, which are worth about $40,000 each (tuition/room/board) that comes to a cost of $800,000. Add in coaches salaries, equipment, insurance, etc. and the cost is well in excess of $1,000,000. While I have never been to a Malone football game, I would assume their gate receipts for home games are less than $15,000 to $20,000 per year. The bottom line from the financial perspective almost certainly did this program in. Contrary to popular belief, collegiate football is not the cash cow people think it is. Outside of your DI power programs, football is often the biggest financial loser a college athletic program at DII and smaller DI programs. Ever been to a Kent or Akron football game? I assume Kent and Akron give out the full 85 scholarships allowed by FBS programs. (Not sure...just guessing.) . If they do, those two programs lose a huge amount of money every year.
How do they account for losing the tuition payments of the other 100 students that the football team brought on campus? ~$4,000,000
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  #68  
Old 02-06-19, 12:08 PM
BigWorm BigWorm is offline
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snowflake society taking over.
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  #69  
Old 02-06-19, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stark Born & Bred View Post
I was always under the belief that athletic programs at non-scholarship schools and schools that give only partial scholarships (like Malone) are NEVER designed to make money or even be revenue neutral. Rather, they are suppose to drive enrollment (and the tuition and room and board dollars that follow those students). If a program - any program - doesn't do that, you have a problem financially.
That's the theory, but it's really only "working" at a limited number of places. A school (even DI) also has to find a way for the non-scholarship students to subsidize the costs of the sports program to make it "work." Some schools are explicit about this subsidy with their fees, and others just hide it in their tuition charges. That's getting harder and harder as more and more people get mad about tuition inflation.

I imagine you're going to see more and more schools get rid of football or move down a division. An interesting question around this under Title IX is for schools that get rid of football -- will those schools also be required to get rid of women's sports to get the overall gender balance back into line?

Gender balance was the original justification for having more sports for women than men, because football had so many more players than all of the other sports. So, to have the total number of players balance out from a gender perspective, more women's teams (with their smaller rosters) had to be created.

Or will we see a return of wrestling & baseball programs that were eliminated in the past for that reason? Or will schools find some cheaper sports programs to start for men, such as men's volleyball, to keep the overall gender balance in place?
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  #70  
Old 02-06-19, 03:08 PM
lc5397 lc5397 is offline
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The limited expansion we've seen in college athletics in recent years has been in sports like lacrosse and men's volleyball. It just so happens these sports have demographics where participants are more likley to be able to pay some or all of the tuition.

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Originally Posted by FormerWildcat View Post
That's the theory, but it's really only "working" at a limited number of places. A school (even DI) also has to find a way for the non-scholarship students to subsidize the costs of the sports program to make it "work." Some schools are explicit about this subsidy with their fees, and others just hide it in their tuition charges. That's getting harder and harder as more and more people get mad about tuition inflation.

I imagine you're going to see more and more schools get rid of football or move down a division. An interesting question around this under Title IX is for schools that get rid of football -- will those schools also be required to get rid of women's sports to get the overall gender balance back into line?

Gender balance was the original justification for having more sports for women than men, because football had so many more players than all of the other sports. So, to have the total number of players balance out from a gender perspective, more women's teams (with their smaller rosters) had to be created.

Or will we see a return of wrestling & baseball programs that were eliminated in the past for that reason? Or will schools find some cheaper sports programs to start for men, such as men's volleyball, to keep the overall gender balance in place?
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  #71  
Old 02-06-19, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by lc5397 View Post
The limited expansion we've seen in college athletics in recent years has been in sports like lacrosse and men's volleyball. It just so happens these sports have demographics where participants are more likley to be able to pay some or all of the tuition.
That is somewhat brilliant from a financial & political perspective. You get a bunch of kids who don't have to be subsidized, and you solve your potential Title IX issues at the same time. Voila!

The Law of Unintended Consequences strikes again!
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  #72  
Old 02-06-19, 08:53 PM
buno67 buno67 is offline
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Originally Posted by Spread All Day View Post
Lake Erie college is near by and they could use the players. They stink.


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there issue is they should have never joined the GLIAC football conference. That killed them. They couldnt compete in that conference and it took a toll on recruits. They then dropped the ball on the HC situation. They fire their first HC half way through the season. All the OC to take over. Hire a new guy, who gets fired after a month because he was basically trying to hook up with the female athletes. He gets fired and they give the full time job to the OC who was the interim HC. It really screwed up the recruiting for that season. They basically had 2years with no great classes because a lot of player quit and the "new HC" was put behind the 8 ball when it came to recruiting.

Now the new HC they have, has potential. Its great he got a transfer QB from Buffalo. He was a walk on QB who played at Perry Local Schools
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  #73  
Old 02-07-19, 07:33 AM
tribefan23 tribefan23 is offline
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Originally Posted by Spread All Day View Post
Lake Erie college is near by and they could use the players. They stink.


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Lol lets not act like Malone was some kind of football powerhouse. They haven't had a winning season since 2008, and haven't even won more than 2 games since 2011. I'm not sure a lot of schools are looking to grab every player from Malone. If they were winning games, it would be another story......
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  #74  
Old 02-07-19, 08:32 AM
lc5397 lc5397 is offline
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Which brings up an interesting question. Am I wrong in thinking that the good D3 schools would have no problem beating the under-funded lower level D2 schools like Malone?

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Originally Posted by tribefan23 View Post
Lol lets not act like Malone was some kind of football powerhouse. They haven't had a winning season since 2008, and haven't even won more than 2 games since 2011. I'm not sure a lot of schools are looking to grab every player from Malone. If they were winning games, it would be another story......
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  #75  
Old 02-07-19, 09:08 AM
tribefan23 tribefan23 is offline
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Originally Posted by lc5397 View Post
Which brings up an interesting question. Am I wrong in thinking that the good D3 schools would have no problem beating the under-funded lower level D2 schools like Malone?
I don't think the gap between high level D3 and low level D2 is very big at all tbh. A lot of the bigger D3 programs are getting recruits from D1 or D2 that can't make the grades or have other circumstances that prevent them from getting a scholarship. A program like Mount Union or John Carroll in their good years would definitely compete in the GMAC and, IMO, would have a better record than a school like Malone or Lake Erie. Even though D3 schools aren't giving away "athletic scholarships," they are still recruiting and giving "academic money" to recruits that they really want. They're not at a complete disadvantage if the program is funded properly.
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  #76  
Old 02-07-19, 09:40 AM
Mean_Green Mean_Green is offline
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Originally Posted by lc5397 View Post
Which brings up an interesting question. Am I wrong in thinking that the good D3 schools would have no problem beating the under-funded lower level D2 schools like Malone?
Thomas More beat Lake Erie 44-0 this past year.
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  #77  
Old 02-07-19, 09:56 AM
Toussanger Toussanger is offline
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Originally Posted by tribefan23 View Post
I don't think the gap between high level D3 and low level D2 is very big at all tbh. A lot of the bigger D3 programs are getting recruits from D1 or D2 that can't make the grades or have other circumstances that prevent them from getting a scholarship. A program like Mount Union or John Carroll in their good years would definitely compete in the GMAC and, IMO, would have a better record than a school like Malone or Lake Erie. Even though D3 schools aren't giving away "athletic scholarships," they are still recruiting and giving "academic money" to recruits that they really want. They're not at a complete disadvantage if the program is funded properly.
Not sure if I agree with all that. Lots of pro scouts looking at D2 players, at least they were at my son's school. I once asked a friend of mine who played at Ashland if he would trade his 4 years at Ashland and no championships for 4 championships at Mount Union. He laughed and said absolutely not !
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  #78  
Old 02-07-19, 10:05 AM
tribefan23 tribefan23 is offline
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Originally Posted by Toussanger View Post
Not sure if I agree with all that. Lots of pro scouts looking at D2 players, at least they were at my son's school. I once asked a friend of mine who played at Ashland if he would trade his 4 years at Ashland and no championships for 4 championships at Mount Union. He laughed and said absolutely not !

I never said every good D3 team beats every good D2 team. It's a case by case basis. Obviously Ashland is a quality D2 program that gets a player here or there taken by an NFL team. Schools like Malone and Lake Erie (at least to my knowledge) havent had that same success).

There are also pro scouts looking at D3 players too. I can name a handful of players that have been drafted out of Mount Union over the last decade (or signed on after the draft). Obviously more D2 players are usually taken, but let's not act like there has never been a D3 player scouted and drafted.

Lets put Malone in the OAC over the last few years. Do they have any more success than they've had? I think it's unlikely tbqh. Now if we put John Carroll or Mount Union in the GMAC, I think they are at least respectable and have a chance to compete for a conference champ.
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  #79  
Old 02-07-19, 11:59 AM
Toussanger Toussanger is offline
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No argument from me that there are great D3 players. Just the level of play I witnessed in the Mountain East, I dont think JC or MU would fair very well. Again my opinion !
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  #80  
Old 02-07-19, 12:04 PM
Bad Blake Bad Blake is offline
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https://mobile.twitter.com/Malone_Fo...05751466516480
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  #81  
Old 02-07-19, 12:24 PM
tribefan23 tribefan23 is offline
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Didn't know about this. That's awesome. Have there been any others from Malone that have either received combine invites or made it to a training camp?
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  #82  
Old 02-07-19, 12:39 PM
y2h y2h is offline
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Originally Posted by tribefan23 View Post
There are plenty of professional athletes that are either current or former NFL players or current or former NBA players that played football (a la LeBron) that have come out publicly saying they won't let their kid play football. Even Trump just said recently he would have to strongly think about letting his kid play. Even though equipment today is safer than it has ever been.

If you are good enough and have a choice in what sport to play, choosing basketball or baseball over football professionally should be an easy choice. Even collegiately it's an easy choice. Longer career, more money, and the safety factor isn't even close. I laugh at Kyler Murray (who is a 5'9 QB which is amazing) who already has millions of dollars guaranteed to play with the Oakland A's, that he is even considering football. He should be running to spring training right now to collect his millions and enjoy a 15 year baseball career where he should make even more.

Unfortunately, we all love a dying game.
A dying game. That explains why there are TWO new pro football leagues set to debut over the next couple years. Why the Super Bowl still draws 100 million viewers in this age of diversified viewing options. Why NFL games are routinely among the most watched shows on TV.

Hysteria aside the game has never been more healthy.
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  #83  
Old 02-07-19, 12:49 PM
y2h y2h is offline
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Ironic that Malone's first NFL player may come as the school shuts down the program.
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  #84  
Old 02-07-19, 01:05 PM
tribefan23 tribefan23 is offline
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A dying game. That explains why there are TWO new pro football leagues set to debut over the next couple years. Why the Super Bowl still draws 100 million viewers in this age of diversified viewing options. Why NFL games are routinely among the most watched shows on TV.

Hysteria aside the game has never been more healthy.
You're comparing apples to oranges here

Viewership of professional football is at an all time high (college as well). You are right about that one.

Middle and High School participation has dropped significantly over the last decade or 2. The numbers have already been shown earlier in this thread.

There's a big difference between people watching the NFL from their couches and letting their kids play football.

When celebrities like LeBron, Trump and so many others are coming out and saying they wouldn't let their kids play football, people see this and start to question if they should let their kids play. With a growing number of studies coming out about CTE and the long term dangers of football, parents are questioning whether or not it is worth the risk. Basketball and soccer are two of the largest growing sports in this country because of it. There was a feature film that millions of people watched that outlined the dangers of football. EVEN PARENTS THAT PLAYED IN COLLEGE OR PROFESSIONALLY ARE QUESTIONING IT!!!!!!!!!! And honestly, it's only going to get worse as these players from the 70s and 80s, even 90s hit older ages and start to come out more and more about how playing football for so many years has hurt them physically and mentally, and some of them have even said they regret it and it hasn't been worth the suffering they've had to endure as they've gotten older.

That's why I say football is a dying game. If you can't see the difference, then it's not worth my time explaining.
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  #85  
Old 02-07-19, 01:49 PM
Walt Walt is offline
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Originally Posted by Toussanger View Post
Not sure if I agree with all that. Lots of pro scouts looking at D2 players, at least they were at my son's school. I once asked a friend of mine who played at Ashland if he would trade his 4 years at Ashland and no championships for 4 championships at Mount Union. He laughed and said absolutely not !
Iím pretty sure Mount Union has sent more guys to the NFL then Ashland has. And Iíd bet that the OAC (D3 Ohio teams) in total have sent more guys to the NFL than all the Ohio D2 schools combined.
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  #86  
Old 02-07-19, 02:05 PM
tribefan23 tribefan23 is offline
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I’m pretty sure Mount Union has sent more guys to the NFL then Ashland has. And I’d bet that the OAC (D3 Ohio teams) in total have sent more guys to the NFL than all the Ohio D2 schools combined.
Ashland actually has sent more guys to the NFL according to pro football reference. John Carroll has actually sent more players to the NFL than both schools. I was intrigued so I did some research. Here are the stats I found for each school based on the number of alumni that have played in the NFL (some are AFL as well, since these stats go back to the beginning of pro football basically).

OAC
John Carroll: 10
Mount Union: 8
Baldwin Wallace: 9
Heidelberg: 12
Marietta: 8
Muskingum: 7
Otterbein: 6
ONU: 6

Ohio D2's
Central State: 21 (wasnt expecting that)
Ashland: 9
Findlay: 9
Tiffin: 2
ODU: 1
Urbana: 3

If they're not on this list, then I couldn't find anything about any alumni in the NFL.

Central State has the most prominent alumni of any Ohio D2/3 school, along with having the most. They include Roosevelt Nix, Erik Williams, Orlando Brown, Hugh Douglas (1st round pick), Vince Buck (2nd round), and Michael Stone (2nd round). Suprising number of higher draft picks.

According to d3 football.com, there were 10 D3 players on NFL rosters to begin 2018 season. https://www.d3football.com/notables/...on-nfl-rosters

Pretty interesting stats. A lot of these numbers came from guys that played in the 60's, 70's and 80's though across D2 and D3. The debate can continue as to what route is better I guess.
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  #87  
Old 02-07-19, 02:09 PM
Walt Walt is offline
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I was going off memory... at least of late (last 10-15 years) it seems like Iíve heard of more guys from Mount, JCU, H-Berg, and ONU than I have most of the local D2s.
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  #88  
Old 02-07-19, 02:12 PM
Walt Walt is offline
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And most of Central State’s guys were from the late ‘80s and ‘90s when they were a powerhouse. I bet they haven’t had any the last 10-15 years.
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  #89  
Old 02-07-19, 02:17 PM
Walt Walt is offline
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And back to the Malone situation... the timing was horrible! They should have made the announcement as soon as the 2018 season ended. Then the kids and coaches could find new schools and jobs.

Heck... just days before he announcement they were making offers to current seniors in high school. What if s kid committed an turned down an offer from another D2 just days before signing day? That’s terrible.
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  #90  
Old 02-07-19, 02:18 PM
tribefan23 tribefan23 is offline
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Originally Posted by Walt View Post
I was going off memory... at least of late (last 10-15 years) it seems like Iíve heard of more guys from Mount, JCU, H-Berg, and ONU than I have most of the local D2s.
You're right about that. OVer the last decade it has been more of those schools with a few from Ashland sprinkled in.
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