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  #121  
Old 05-12-14, 10:09 AM
bb9 bb9 is offline
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I would assume the fastpitch rule is the same as the baseball rule but don't quote me on that. (I am certified to do fastpitch but haven't in a long time, and will be the first to admit I don't know the rules very well.)

Here is the baseball reference (Rule 8-4-2g) which states that a double play could possibly be the correct call in this situation based on the judgment of the umpire:

Runner is out when:

g. intentionally interferes with a throw or a thrown ball; or he hinders a fielder on his initial attempt to field a
batted ball. A fielder is not protected, except from intentional contact if he misplays the ball and has to move
from his original location; or his being put out is prevented by an illegal act by anyone connected with the
team (2-21-1, 3-2-2, 3) or by the batter-runner; for runner returning to base (8-2-6); and for runner being hit by
a batted ball (8-4-2k). If, in the judgment of the umpire, a runner including the batter-runner interferes in any
way and prevents a double play anywhere, two shall be declared out (the runner who interfered and the other
runner involved).
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  #122  
Old 05-18-14, 02:49 PM
Yappi Yappi is offline
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Both of these situations are unintentional throwing of the bat.

Situation:
Batter throws the bat after hitting the ball in the first inning. Batter is warned about throwing the bat. In the third inning, batter throws the bat again and it hits wildly but not near any defensive players...did not interfere with play.

Umpire calls batter out for throwing the bat. Umpire also allowed the runner to score from third.

Was the umpire right in calling him out for throwing the bat? Was he right for allowing the run to score.

Similar situation:
Batter hits a little dribbler in front of home plate and throws the bat which hits the catcher and prevents him from making the play. Would there be any differences between the first scenario and this scenario?

(I was always under the impression that an umpire can eject a kid for throwing a bat but could not call him out)
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  #123  
Old 05-18-14, 04:00 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yappi View Post
Both of these situations are unintentional throwing of the bat.

Situation:
Batter throws the bat after hitting the ball in the first inning. Batter is warned about throwing the bat. In the third inning, batter throws the bat again and it hits wildly but not near any defensive players...did not interfere with play.

Umpire calls batter out for throwing the bat. Umpire also allowed the runner to score from third.

Was the umpire right in calling him out for throwing the bat? Was he right for allowing the run to score.

Similar situation:
Batter hits a little dribbler in front of home plate and throws the bat which hits the catcher and prevents him from making the play. Would there be any differences between the first scenario and this scenario?

(I was always under the impression that an umpire can eject a kid for throwing a bat but could not call him out)
FED Rules...

First situation - When the first batter threw the bat, there should have been a team warning issued for violating Rule 3-3-1(c). Any other teammate violating from there on out is ejected. The result of the play stands. The batter is not called out for throwing the bat.

Second Situation - The ball is dead immediately when the thrown bat prevents the catcher from making a play. The batter is out for interference and all runners return to the base occupied at the time of the interference. The umpire could judge that the interference prevented additional outs and declare a runner(s) out as well.

There is no rule set that provides for the batter being declared out for simply throwing the bat. There are local rules that could supersede this for safety reasons. (usually youth leagues) What happens after the bat is thrown dictates what rule to apply.
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  #124  
Old 05-18-14, 10:12 PM
bucksman bucksman is offline
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The second situation Yappi posted is more common within the fast-pitch game than in baseball, though the rule is in force in baseball. Common may not be the right word to use, but it is something that has come up in past local meetings for fast-pitch interpretation.
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  #125  
Old 05-26-14, 07:39 AM
nc green wave nc green wave is offline
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Here's a situation that caused some debate in a recent game.

Runner on first, no outs. Hit and run so runner is stealing and the ball is hit to deep center. The stealing runner steps over second base without touching it and is looking out to center field and sees the center fielder make an over the shoulder catch. The runner now realizes that he has to get back to first and steps over second base without touching it and retreats to first base safely before the ball arrives from center field.

Does the runner have to touch second base to get back to first even though it wasn't touched initially?

Is this an appeal play or does umpire call the out?
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  #126  
Old 05-26-14, 07:47 AM
bb9 bb9 is offline
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The time that counts is the last time the runner passes the base. So on a proper appeal the runner would be out in this case. He would be ok if he missed originally but touched on the way back.
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  #127  
Old 08-01-14, 11:28 PM
Yappi Yappi is offline
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I haven't seen this happen but just curious on the calls:

Situation - 1 out, runner on first base, 2 strikes on the batter, dropped 3rd strike and the ball gets away from the catcher towards first base dugout, runner goes to second on passed ball:

1. Batter runs to first base, catcher over throws 1st, runner goes to third.
2. Batter runs to first base, catcher hits batter in running lane, runner goes to third.
3. Batter runs to first base, catcher hits batter outside running lane to the right, runner goes to third.

In all three situations, the batter had no right to run to first base. Would being an illegal runner negate the bad throw or is it simply the catcher should know better?
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  #128  
Old 08-02-14, 04:47 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yappi View Post
I haven't seen this happen but just curious on the calls:

Situation - 1 out, runner on first base, 2 strikes on the batter, dropped 3rd strike and the ball gets away from the catcher towards first base dugout, runner goes to second on passed ball:

1. Batter runs to first base, catcher over throws 1st, runner goes to third.
2. Batter runs to first base, catcher hits batter in running lane, runner goes to third.
3. Batter runs to first base, catcher hits batter outside running lane to the right, runner goes to third.

In all three situations, the batter had no right to run to first base. Would being an illegal runner negate the bad throw or is it simply the catcher should know better?
Unless the retired batter intentionally interfered with the thrown ball, you play on in all three instances. The simple fact that he ran to first base is not illegal.

It is entirely on the defense (catcher) to know the situation and act accordingly.
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  #129  
Old 08-03-14, 03:21 PM
GrassMaster GrassMaster is offline
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Fall Ball Question

Can I get some clarification on this rule:

"Teams formed for fall baseball leagues may have no more than four players from any one school on the same team. Included in this number are freshman, JV and Varsity players from the previous year's roster."


We have four kids from one school lined up for fall ball (all players this past season). Another from the same school wants to play, that did not play for the school last year.

The first part of the rule says no, but that second part makes me think it's ok.

Thanks!
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  #130  
Old 08-03-14, 08:09 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrassMaster View Post
Can I get some clarification on this rule:

"Teams formed for fall baseball leagues may have no more than four players from any one school on the same team. Included in this number are freshman, JV and Varsity players from the previous year's roster."


We have four kids from one school lined up for fall ball (all players this past season). Another from the same school wants to play, that did not play for the school last year.

The first part of the rule says no, but that second part makes me think it's ok.

Thanks!
Please contact the AD of the school involved and let him guide you and the players involved. The AD's are paid to know this.
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  #131  
Old 08-04-14, 12:39 PM
mje037 mje037 is offline
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NEW QUESTION::


Bases loaded, no outs. Routine ground ball to short. Flips to second for an out. Runner coming into second interferes with second baseman knocking him down. Who is out? I would assume the runner and batter, so the run scores and the runner from second would get third. This rule below makes it seem like the runner going to second is out and the runner going HOME is out. Thereby leaving runners on first and third with two outs. Is that correct? I have never seen the runner going home called out when the interference is behind him and no play is being made to home.

And this is what rule 7:09 (f) says:


If, in the judgment of the umpire, a batter-runner willfully and deliberately interferes with a batted ball or a fielder in the act of fielding a batted ball, with the obvious intent to break up a double play, the ball is dead; the umpire shall call the batter-runner out for interference and shall also call out the runner who had advanced closest to the home plate regardless where the double play might have been possible. In no event shall bases be run because of such interference.
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  #132  
Old 08-04-14, 04:28 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mje037 View Post
NEW QUESTION::


Bases loaded, no outs. Routine ground ball to short. Flips to second for an out. Runner coming into second interferes with second baseman knocking him down. Who is out? I would assume the runner and batter, so the run scores and the runner from second would get third. This rule below makes it seem like the runner going to second is out and the runner going HOME is out. Thereby leaving runners on first and third with two outs. Is that correct? I have never seen the runner going home called out when the interference is behind him and no play is being made to home.

And this is what rule 7:09 (f) says:


If, in the judgment of the umpire, a batter-runner willfully and deliberately interferes with a batted ball or a fielder in the act of fielding a batted ball, with the obvious intent to break up a double play, the ball is dead; the umpire shall call the batter-runner out for interference and shall also call out the runner who had advanced closest to the home plate regardless where the double play might have been possible. In no event shall bases be run because of such interference.
7.09 does not apply here because the interference was not with a runner interfering with a batted ball or a fielder in the act of fielding a batted ball.

What we have in actuality is interference by a retired runner. Therefore, the runner is out on the initial force, the interference causes the ball to become dead immediately. The batter-runner is called out and the runners return to where the base they legally occupied when the interference occurred. (probably back to 2nd & 3rd)
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  #133  
Old 08-14-14, 03:16 PM
Yappi Yappi is offline
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Are there any special rules for a dropped third strike appeal to 1st base umpire?

Can the offense ask for an appeal? (ie he runs to first and beats the throw before an appeal, this would then favor the offense to ask for appeal)
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  #134  
Old 08-15-14, 10:17 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yappi View Post
Are there any special rules for a dropped third strike appeal to 1st base umpire?

Can the offense ask for an appeal? (ie he runs to first and beats the throw before an appeal, this would then favor the offense to ask for appeal)
The umpire will rule whether or not the pitch was caught. He does this by either seeing it with his own eyes or looking for a signal from his partner. He then either declares the batter out or makes a "safe" signal if not caught.

There's no appeal by either team granted on this play.
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  #135  
Old 08-26-14, 09:51 PM
Grandesign Grandesign is offline
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Balk Rule

Man on 1st.
Pitcher gets the ball back and heads toward the mound.
Without touching the pitcher's plate (rubber), but rather standing 2' to the side of the pitcher's plate toward 3rd base, the pitcher starts a windup motion in an attempt to deceive the runner on base to take a lead or steal. The pitcher does not deliver the ball to the catcher, but rather stops his motion and makes an attempt to run down the runner caught off base.
Is this a legal move?
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  #136  
Old 08-29-14, 11:24 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandesign View Post
Man on 1st.
Pitcher gets the ball back and heads toward the mound.
Without touching the pitcher's plate (rubber), but rather standing 2' to the side of the pitcher's plate toward 3rd base, the pitcher starts a windup motion in an attempt to deceive the runner on base to take a lead or steal. The pitcher does not deliver the ball to the catcher, but rather stops his motion and makes an attempt to run down the runner caught off base.
Is this a legal move?
Balk

Starting the wind up motion while not properly positioned on the pitching plate is illegal.
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  #137  
Old 08-29-14, 02:30 PM
Grandesign Grandesign is offline
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I can find no such rule in 2014 NFHS. Can you help me find it?
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  #138  
Old 08-30-14, 01:14 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Rule 6-2-5
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  #139  
Old 08-30-14, 05:22 PM
Grandesign Grandesign is offline
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The actions listed in 6-2, Article 5 are infractions by a pitcher "without having the ball."
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  #140  
Old 08-30-14, 07:26 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandesign View Post
The actions listed in 6-2, Article 5 are infractions by a pitcher "without having the ball."
6-2-5

It is also a balk if a runner or runners are on base and the pitcher, while he is not touching the pitcher's plate, makes any movement naturally associated with his pitch, OR he places his feet on or astride the pitcher's plate, or positions himself within approximately 5 feet of the pitcher's plate without having the ball

The first part of the rule pertains to motions while not in contact with the plate, with or without the ball. This is what you describe in your question.

The last two are infractions without being in possession of the ball.
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  #141  
Old 08-31-14, 02:39 PM
Grandesign Grandesign is offline
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6-2
Article 4 pertains to infractions while in possession of the ball.
Article 5 pertains to infractions while not in possession of the ball.

6-1 states "The pitching regulations begin when he intentionally contacts the pitcher's plate."

6-2-5 makes it illegal for the pitcher to approach or contact the pitcher's plate without having the ball.

6-2-5 clearly makes it illegal for the pitcher fake a windup if he does not have the ball.

2-29-5... A feint is a movement which simulates the start of a pitch or a throw to a base and is used to deceive a runner.
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  #142  
Old 08-31-14, 04:36 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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You are taking the last portion of 6-2-5 "without having the ball" and applying it entirely to 6-2-5. The verbiage prior to the word "or" is separate from this and is not exclusive to the pitcher not being in possession of the ball.

Case Book Play 6.2.5 Situation A

With R1 at first, F1 in the stretch position quickly steps backward off the pitcher's plate and with a motion much like his pitching delivery throws the ball to the plate where (a) B1 hits the throw; or (b) R1 is thrown out stealing by F2 on a pitchout.

Ruling:
In (a) and (b) it is a balk. F1, while he is not touching the pitcher's plate, shall not make any movement naturally associated with his pitch.

In this Case Book Play, the pitcher has possession of the ball, is off the rubber and makes a move that is naturally associated with his pitch...... Balk

Last edited by AllSports12; 08-31-14 at 04:59 PM.
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  #143  
Old 09-01-14, 09:31 AM
Grandesign Grandesign is offline
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Fair enough.

The ruling in the case example differs in that the pitcher has contacted the pitcher's plate, steps off, then delivers a pitch (legally or illegally). The balk ruling in the example opposes 6-1-3, imo.

In what circumstance could a pitcher legally feint a pitch, as described in definitions 2-29-5?
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  #144  
Old 09-01-14, 11:00 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandesign View Post
Fair enough.

The ruling in the case example differs in that the pitcher has contacted the pitcher's plate, steps off, then delivers a pitch (legally or illegally). The balk ruling in the example opposes 6-1-3, imo.
6-2-5 covers this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandesign View Post
In what circumstance could a pitcher legally feint a pitch, as described in definitions 2-29-5?
Never !! (I don't have my books handy, but I believe you are referring to 2-28-5, which defines a feint.)

6-2-4a prohibits a pitcher from feinting to home or first while in contact with the pitcher's plate.

6-2-5 prohibits a pitcher from making a move that is naturally associated with his pitch. A feint is defined as a movement that simulates the start of a pitch.......and in a nutshell, a pitch begins when any movement with his arms or legs that the pitcher to pitch....(naturally associated movement)

With that, this subject has run it's course. What you describe is illegal under every rule code that is out there.

It's time to move on........
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  #145  
Old 09-02-14, 09:22 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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I've asked now twice that you end this discussion.

You, for some reason, are hell bent in proving that something that is illegal in all codes of baseball is actually legal. (Never mind the fact that you cannot show me one instance that this has been successfully executed in a baseball game, because if it had, it would be plastered all over the internet)

That alone should tell you something.......

I encourage you to contact the NFHS in Indianapolis, the NCAA in Indianapolis, the PBUC (Minor League Baseball) in St. Petersburg, and MLB in New York..... advise them of your assertion that the rules allow for a pitcher to feint a pitch to the plate with the purpose of deceiving a runner....

See where that gets you.

Any more on the subject is pure trolling. I'll delete any further posts on this subject and will ask Yappi to intervene should you persist in re-posting deleted subject matter.
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  #146  
Old 09-15-14, 11:23 AM
Yappi Yappi is offline
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I kind of hate to ask this question but it was a debated play in a recent fall ball game.

Runner on second. He gets a great jump stealing 3rd. Pitcher hits the batter. Runner was within 20 feet of 3rd base when the ball hit the batter.

Does the runner have to go back to 2nd or does he get 3rd because it can be assumed that he would have easily made it?
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  #147  
Old 09-15-14, 11:25 AM
bb9 bb9 is offline
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Back to second my friend. He could have been standing on third by the time the batter is hit and he's still going back.
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  #148  
Old 09-16-14, 05:26 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Sometimes the rules are kind to you and sometimes they aren't.

Case in point....

Runner at third, batter hits a low screamer up the middle that is destined for center field. Ball nails the base umpire in the leg.

Dead ball......batter runner to first.......runner at third is still the runner at third...
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  #149  
Old 09-18-14, 11:57 PM
Yappi Yappi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bb9 View Post
Back to second my friend. He could have been standing on third by the time the batter is hit and he's still going back.
Thanks! Just wanted to confirm something that I thought was a routine call. Your response was actually part of my argument during this call.
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  #150  
Old 10-06-14, 11:59 AM
fortfan fortfan is offline
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Batted ball hits behind home plate, then bounces into fair territory, is it fair or foul. I think I know the answer-it's a fair ball. Then why do umpires keep calling it a foul ball?
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