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  #1  
Old 10-25-18, 10:49 AM
wolsey737 wolsey737 is offline
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What’s the reason for OHSAA State course change?




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  #2  
Old 10-25-18, 10:52 AM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
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So zig zags in one field replaced by zig zag in another field. Great
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Old 10-25-18, 10:57 AM
Finishtiming Finishtiming is offline
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National Trail sold 19 acres across the street that was parking so the old loop is now parking. They bought land to the north and that has been changed to that loop. The small zig zag before the mile is to get the runners over to the out loop as it used to be when you came out of that area before.

I just found out about this also, so I am just going off what meet manager told me last night on the phone.
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  #4  
Old 10-25-18, 12:13 PM
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I'm sure they couldn't do much on such short notice this year, but if the meet stays at NTR, I'd like to see less time spent on that new portion and more time spent in the woods. I'm assuming spectators won't be able to get near that zig-zag portion anyway, so if the runners are going to spend that much time where nobody can see them, more time in the woods might be more enjoyable for the runners. I'm aware that such a change would cause the 2-mile mark to have to move into the woods as well, but meet management can make it work.

I'll reserve final judgement until I see how this version of the course works.
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Old 10-25-18, 12:29 PM
RunnerAdam RunnerAdam is offline
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If it stays at NTR, hopefully they can make a 2 loop course (maybe 1.5 loops) that takes out most of the zig zagging in the future and circles back by the grandstand in the middle of the race too. It feels like you could ignore the new far field completely and do that somehow.
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Old 10-25-18, 01:17 PM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
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i met with them a few years ago about a double loop course........only one cut through on the dragstrip makes it impossible.
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  #7  
Old 10-25-18, 01:43 PM
Percidae Percidae is offline
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From a spectator's perspective, this is really bad compared to the previous setup. Standing on the top row of the west bleachers you could see quite a bit of the race since you could see all of the field zig-zags.
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Old 10-26-18, 05:12 AM
psycho_dad psycho_dad is offline
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I would also like to not see more of the race in the woods than to not see more of the race in a field.

So, if I go to the state meet, am I just a creepy old man now? I'm not there to watch the race anymore.

We know they couldn't move the two mile mark because they would not be able to get splits from anywhere else. At least live splits. God forbid we don't have those. If this was not the State Championship meet, it would be the worst meet to attend all year and I would beg the coach not to go back the next year.

I'm there for support of the kids at this point and not there to watch the races. I go to help make it a memorable experience for the kids that it means so much to. I guess I'm there for the parking. It has enough parking.
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  #9  
Old 10-26-18, 06:35 AM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_dad View Post
I would also like to not see more of the race in the woods than to not see more of the race in a field.

So, if I go to the state meet, am I just a creepy old man now? I'm not there to watch the race anymore.

We know they couldn't move the two mile mark because they would not be able to get splits from anywhere else. At least live splits. God forbid we don't have those. If this was not the State Championship meet, it would be the worst meet to attend all year and I would beg the coach not to go back the next year.

I'm there for support of the kids at this point and not there to watch the races. I go to help make it a memorable experience for the kids that it means so much to. I guess I'm there for the parking. It has enough parking.

A few good points

1. You are creepy
2. This WOULD be the worst course of the year.
3. There is no reason why they cant go out to the new field and then come back opposite direction around drag strip and in front of grandstands.
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Old 10-26-18, 07:03 AM
yj_runfan yj_runfan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_dad View Post
I would also like to not see more of the race in the woods than to not see more of the race in a field.

So, if I go to the state meet, am I just a creepy old man now? I'm not there to watch the race anymore.

We know they couldn't move the two mile mark because they would not be able to get splits from anywhere else. At least live splits. God forbid we don't have those. If this was not the State Championship meet, it would be the worst meet to attend all year and I would beg the coach not to go back the next year.

I'm there for support of the kids at this point and not there to watch the races. I go to help make it a memorable experience for the kids that it means so much to. I guess I'm there for the parking. It has enough parking.
That was all true of the previous location.
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  #11  
Old 10-26-18, 03:15 PM
psycho_dad psycho_dad is offline
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Not even close. You could see the entire start at SD. Go out and see them run the first outside loop. Head across the parking lot and stop at the fence and watch them run through the track part again, then head over to the second loop and watch that, then head back to the fence and see the finish. Maybe 800 meters of the race you could not see. When I was in half way descent shape, I could run back into the stands and watch them run into the track area and as they ran out, I would run out to the loop and watch that and get back in to see most of the finishers. My last two years, I stayed outside once I left the grand stands and watched through the fence. They still kept you too far from the action, but you could see it if you really wanted to.

The anticipation at the start of the races was great at SD and when the gun went off the place went nuts. The races at NT start without a peep of excitement. I'll put some work in to see the race, but I don't even have that option at NT. My dad used to just sit in the stands at SD and he was no big fan of the place, but he went to one at NT and was done. It was not worth it.

They have had time to make improvements and they have made none. Give us a big screen to watch and put cameras out there. How about 1000m splits and not just the mile and 2 mile. Do something to make it better. Charge me $20 if you have to and make me feel I've gotten my money's worth. I feel ripped off at $10. At leas let the teammates that are running around like idiots, get out there in the back acres and run around and cheer. People lined the outside loops at SD. No one allowed at NT.

Like CC609 says, they should bring them back around by the stands again. They did that at SD. three times though the grand stands.

I want to be out there when they come out of the woods and cheer them there. Let them zig zag around like they do at Indiana State, but let fans out on the course like they do there. Let someone like me halve a pass where we can be inside the course like the coaches in designated areas and run around and watch. And when I die of a heart attack, just kick me out of the way. Let the people that want to or need to, sit in the stands. There is enough time between races to let spectators out from inside the course. 5 min before the gun, the gates to the inside close and you are stuck there until the end of the race. There is a lot of room on the drag strip pavement to let hundreds of people out there.
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  #12  
Old 10-26-18, 08:34 PM
yj_runfan yj_runfan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_dad View Post
Not even close. You could see the entire start at SD. Go out and see them run the first outside loop. Head across the parking lot and stop at the fence and watch them run through the track part again, then head over to the second loop and watch that, then head back to the fence and see the finish. Maybe 800 meters of the race you could not see. When I was in half way descent shape, I could run back into the stands and watch them run into the track area and as they ran out, I would run out to the loop and watch that and get back in to see most of the finishers. My last two years, I stayed outside once I left the grand stands and watched through the fence. They still kept you too far from the action, but you could see it if you really wanted to.

The anticipation at the start of the races was great at SD and when the gun went off the place went nuts. The races at NT start without a peep of excitement. I'll put some work in to see the race, but I don't even have that option at NT. My dad used to just sit in the stands at SD and he was no big fan of the place, but he went to one at NT and was done. It was not worth it.

They have had time to make improvements and they have made none. Give us a big screen to watch and put cameras out there. How about 1000m splits and not just the mile and 2 mile. Do something to make it better. Charge me $20 if you have to and make me feel I've gotten my money's worth. I feel ripped off at $10. At leas let the teammates that are running around like idiots, get out there in the back acres and run around and cheer. People lined the outside loops at SD. No one allowed at NT.

Like CC609 says, they should bring them back around by the stands again. They did that at SD. three times though the grand stands.

I want to be out there when they come out of the woods and cheer them there. Let them zig zag around like they do at Indiana State, but let fans out on the course like they do there. Let someone like me halve a pass where we can be inside the course like the coaches in designated areas and run around and watch. And when I die of a heart attack, just kick me out of the way. Let the people that want to or need to, sit in the stands. There is enough time between races to let spectators out from inside the course. 5 min before the gun, the gates to the inside close and you are stuck there until the end of the race. There is a lot of room on the drag strip pavement to let hundreds of people out there.
I could make just as long a list about the negatives of SD. The whole point was you would never have taken a team to a meet there if it wasn’t the state championship. The worst course we run on all year is the most important meet of all. It shouldn’t be like that.
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  #13  
Old 10-27-18, 06:28 AM
psycho_dad psycho_dad is offline
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They need to make improvements and they just aren't. As far as atmosphere goes, it's about a 4 compared to the 8-9 it was at SD. That's probably the biggest thing. It's the state meet, so for the kids it's a 10. I'm sure they love it. It's the top of the mountain for them. We expect a lot from kids. We need to do a better job for them on this. Any other sport, and this would not be tolerated. It's unique because CC has no boundaries or set dimensions, so I understand it's not easy. If it was my kid bringing home this "D-" year after year, it would be corrected by this point.

Ena said last year that his kids think it's the best course/ meet of the year. It's the state meet, so it's going to be big. It should be better than this. They have the land, they have the parking and important things like concessions and bathrooms. Now work on what we are there for. Invest some $ and take some sections of the fence and make them gates so that at the CC meet they can be opened to make access to other areas.

Mr. Slippery said it's somewhat understandable because they did not have much time. They have plenty of time. 5 or 6 eight hour days and a better more fan friendly course could have been designed. This was the easy way out. The timing company wasn't even consulted by the post I saw. That's the first call I make if I'm meet manager. I'm sure he has ideas and at least has information on where he can and can't place splits. Can he do more splits? How much does that cost over making the course more fan friendly? That obviously was not done. I have no problem with the course having woods and 90 and 180 degree turns and sideways footing and tall grass and hard surface, But I'd like to see it and have the crowd line the course somewhat.
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  #14  
Old 10-27-18, 07:55 AM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_dad View Post
They need to make improvements and they just aren't. As far as atmosphere goes, it's about a 4 compared to the 8-9 it was at SD. That's probably the biggest thing. It's the state meet, so for the kids it's a 10. I'm sure they love it. It's the top of the mountain for them. We expect a lot from kids. We need to do a better job for them on this. Any other sport, and this would not be tolerated. It's unique because CC has no boundaries or set dimensions, so I understand it's not easy. If it was my kid bringing home this "D-" year after year, it would be corrected by this point.

Ena said last year that his kids think it's the best course/ meet of the year. It's the state meet, so it's going to be big. It should be better than this. They have the land, they have the parking and important things like concessions and bathrooms. Now work on what we are there for. Invest some $ and take some sections of the fence and make them gates so that at the CC meet they can be opened to make access to other areas.

Mr. Slippery said it's somewhat understandable because they did not have much time. They have plenty of time. 5 or 6 eight hour days and a better more fan friendly course could have been designed. This was the easy way out. The timing company wasn't even consulted by the post I saw. That's the first call I make if I'm meet manager. I'm sure he has ideas and at least has information on where he can and can't place splits. Can he do more splits? How much does that cost over making the course more fan friendly? That obviously was not done. I have no problem with the course having woods and 90 and 180 degree turns and sideways footing and tall grass and hard surface, But I'd like to see it and have the crowd line the course somewhat.
i defend the troy course for the same reason. Hate the course all you want but it the regional.
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  #15  
Old 10-27-18, 08:40 AM
EuclidandViren EuclidandViren is offline
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Originally Posted by ccrunner609 View Post
i defend the troy course for the same reason. Hate the course all you want but it the regional.
Troy is the best spectator course in the history of cross country courses.

It cannot be duplicated. I would love to see the gross income from the different regional courses and how much OHSAA makes off the regional courses. I would assume Troy has thousands of paid spectators.
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Old 10-27-18, 03:52 PM
psycho_dad psycho_dad is offline
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Have you been to Boardman? It's packed and a very good course to watch. I've been to Troy and I would guess there are 25% to 30% more spectators at Boardman.
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Old 10-27-18, 04:48 PM
Xccat1600 Xccat1600 is offline
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Boardman

Boardman is a decent spectator course but horrible for runners. Boring and bordering on unrunnable in mud. I think what OHSAA likes best about it is its relative ease in controlling spectator traffic and thus $. Tiffin and Troy are far superior athlete experiences (which should be the main focus).
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Old 10-27-18, 06:12 PM
JerryBaldwin JerryBaldwin is offline
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Things to consider when choosing a state meet site:

1. Run on grass and trails.
2. Spectator friendly.
3. Good for spectators.
4. Parking and accessibility.
5. Great spectator experience.
.
.
.
14. Course exactly 500 meters.
.
.
.
84. Course in central Ohio.

As has been said before, kids will enjoy the state meet anywhere on any course - hilly or flat, hard or easy, north, south or central - it's the state meet! My best experiences as a fan or coach have been at places like Goodyear where you can actually watch the event! Every other sport (except golf) has a limited field of play that is 100% spectator friendly. We need to do better. Medina changed their course a few years ago and went from a good spectator course to a great one. More meet directors - and the state meet - need to do the same.
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Old 10-27-18, 06:14 PM
psycho_dad psycho_dad is offline
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Have you been to Troy, It's a terrible course if you are a runner. Pickerington is by far the best course for runners. At Troy, You just run back and forth and back and forth. Troy may very well be the worst CC course I've ever seen from a runners point of view. I would have hated that when I ran. You literally start and run 400 meters around a cone at the end of the field, then run back to the start and run around a cone then run back to the other cone and around it, then back towards the start and run around that cone again then run back out towards the other cone, but thankfully run up a small hill then on top of the hill back the other way and around a cone then back the other way and around a cone then back to the other cone and around it back the other way to the finish. It's a youth soccer practice. ok, go run around that cone and come back here. Ok, Go run around that cone again. Ok, everyone run and touch the bridge and then run back here.

I've never really liked Tiffin, but it's OK.

Boardman is not the best runners course as it's 2 big loops, but a good spectators course with a great start and nice finish. I'll take two loops over 8 down and backs any day. You almost expect them to play Red Rover at Troy. Hey, nice job, you made it to the state meet. Run down around that cone and back and then we will pass out treats.

Not sure if they have changed Troy or Pickerington, but as of a few years ago, that's my perspective. Isn't it funny how two people can have such different opinions. I honestly think Troy is the worst CC course I have ever seen.
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Old 10-27-18, 07:41 PM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryBaldwin View Post
Things to consider when choosing a state meet site:

1. Run on grass and trails.
2. Spectator friendly.
3. Good for spectators.
4. Parking and accessibility.
5. Great spectator experience.
.
.
.
14. Course exactly 500 meters.
.
.
.
84. Course in central Ohio.

As has been said before, kids will enjoy the state meet anywhere on any course - hilly or flat, hard or easy, north, south or central - it's the state meet! My best experiences as a fan or coach have been at places like Goodyear where you can actually watch the event! Every other sport (except golf) has a limited field of play that is 100% spectator friendly. We need to do better. Medina changed their course a few years ago and went from a good spectator course to a great one. More meet directors - and the state meet - need to do the same.
The OHSAA #1 is grandstands. #2 is parking. They dont care about anything else
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Old 10-27-18, 08:39 PM
XCFan98 XCFan98 is offline
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Ohsaa

This same group is running a D1 regional at Tiffin with 5 teams. Great idea.

Same group that has the state course where the fans can't see 75% of the race.

Plus 7 divisions in football 3 in track.
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  #22  
Old 10-27-18, 09:11 PM
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Mr. Slippery Mr. Slippery is offline
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Originally Posted by XCFan98 View Post
This same group is running a D1 regional at Tiffin with 5 teams. Great idea.

Same group that has the state course where the fans can't see 75% of the race.

Plus 7 divisions in football 3 in track.
As bad as all of that may seem, I'll take it over that combined enrollment nonsense they stuck us with in 2013 and 2014. That was beyond ridiculous.
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Old 10-28-18, 07:30 AM
yj_runfan yj_runfan is offline
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Originally Posted by psycho_dad View Post
Have you been to Troy, It's a terrible course if you are a runner. Pickerington is by far the best course for runners. At Troy, You just run back and forth and back and forth. Troy may very well be the worst CC course I've ever seen from a runners point of view. I would have hated that when I ran. You literally start and run 400 meters around a cone at the end of the field, then run back to the start and run around a cone then run back to the other cone and around it, then back towards the start and run around that cone again then run back out towards the other cone, but thankfully run up a small hill then on top of the hill back the other way and around a cone then back the other way and around a cone then back to the other cone and around it back the other way to the finish. It's a youth soccer practice. ok, go run around that cone and come back here. Ok, Go run around that cone again. Ok, everyone run and touch the bridge and then run back here.

I've never really liked Tiffin, but it's OK.

Boardman is not the best runners course as it's 2 big loops, but a good spectators course with a great start and nice finish. I'll take two loops over 8 down and backs any day. You almost expect them to play Red Rover at Troy. Hey, nice job, you made it to the state meet. Run down around that cone and back and then we will pass out treats.

Not sure if they have changed Troy or Pickerington, but as of a few years ago, that's my perspective. Isn't it funny how two people can have such different opinions. I honestly think Troy is the worst CC course I have ever seen.
Thank you! I get so much grief when I say the SW should be moved from Troy. It is a fun place but a terrible course. Plus, it’s barely even in the Southwest.
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Old 10-28-18, 07:46 AM
long time coach long time coach is offline
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Originally Posted by ccrunner609 View Post
The OHSAA #1 is grandstands. #2 is parking. They dont care about anything else
Nope # 1 is controlling access to course to charged admission
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Old 10-28-18, 08:41 AM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
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i just got done with my yearly running of the Troy course after regionals. The ground was great. Thought it might be a little soft due to rain but it wasnt.

The course is one unfriendly run for the kids. The first loop at the bottom is mentally easy but the 2nd just sucks.

Rumor has it that there is a course laid out there that finishes in the stadium and only runs one loop at bottom but Hartman wont do it.

Once he leaves then that would be interesting to see a stadium finish like Night lights
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Old 10-28-18, 08:49 AM
EuclidandViren EuclidandViren is offline
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Originally Posted by ccrunner609 View Post
i just got done with my yearly running of the Troy course after regionals. The ground was great. Thought it might be a little soft due to rain but it wasnt.

The course is one unfriendly run for the kids. The first loop at the bottom is mentally easy but the 2nd just sucks.

Rumor has it that there is a course laid out there that finishes in the stadium and only runs one loop at bottom but Hartman wont do it.

Once he leaves then that would be interesting to see a stadium finish like Night lights
I like the idea of a stadium finish at Troy.

The major problem is how do you get the runners there?

Both passages through gates are viable, but the MAJOR MAJOR problem is that both entrances are major congested areas with spectators. This would limit spectators to the course.

When designing courses I hate when spectators have to cross over the path of the runners. It is a logistic nightmare.
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Old 10-28-18, 09:04 AM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
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the runners would likely go into the east gate past where the finish would be. Where the shot put is located. Spectators and others would enter through the big gate on the west end where they enter for track meets. Wouldnt be a problem at all.

Runners would run about 300 meters around track to finish. (i know...track during CC but I feel that this would lead to an unreal finish and its better then 2.2 miles on the bottom.
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