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  #31  
Old 06-02-18, 05:03 PM
mathking mathking is offline
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4:06 and a win. Now we will see in the 3200.
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  #32  
Old 06-02-18, 05:49 PM
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Horter third in 9:05.88. Scrape won in 9:02.
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  #33  
Old 06-02-18, 05:58 PM
JAVMAN83 JAVMAN83 is offline
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Originally Posted by mathking View Post
Horter third in 9:05.88. Scrape won in 9:02.
Quality doubles are tough!
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  #34  
Old 06-02-18, 06:57 PM
mathking mathking is offline
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By the way, this does not mean he isnít one of the all time greats.
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  #35  
Old 06-02-18, 07:09 PM
JAVMAN83 JAVMAN83 is offline
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By the way, this does not mean he isnít one of the all time greats.
Of course not. Everyone loses. There is NEVER such a thing as a sure bet. Gazillions (yes, a technical term ) has lost gazillions on so-called "sure bets". No one race defines an athlete.
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  #36  
Old 06-02-18, 09:15 PM
mathking mathking is offline
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So a friend asked a question today at the meet. How good is Horter's two year 4:08 - 4:06 performance at the state meet? Trying to think of how many people ran under 4:10 twice at the state meet. At first I thought See, but I remembered (and then double checked) that his sophomore year was the only time under 4:10 for him at the state meet. Kennedy ran a 4:10.x as a junior. I think Zishka was close since his 4:11.2 as a junior converts to a 4:09.x so his is close, but not as fast. Anyone else?
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  #37  
Old 06-02-18, 09:26 PM
JAVMAN83 JAVMAN83 is offline
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St. Xavier's Michael Hall turned the trick twice:

2013
2 Michael Hall 11 St. Xavier 4:09.45
2014
2 Michael Hall (12)St. Xavier4:08.52
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  #38  
Old 06-02-18, 10:51 PM
mathking mathking is offline
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Originally Posted by JAVMAN83 View Post
St. Xavier's Michael Hall turned the trick twice:

2013
2 Michael Hall 11 St. Xavier 4:09.45
2014
2 Michael Hall (12)St. Xavier4:08.52
Thank Javman. I totally forgot about Hall even though I watched both of those races.
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  #39  
Old 06-03-18, 07:37 AM
LoveCrossCountry LoveCrossCountry is offline
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Originally Posted by mathking View Post
You are correct, Sence was at Nationals in 87 with Kennedy.
Oh...yeah, that is correct. Getting my Ohio legends mixed up. Second to Fry was John Trautmann. 14:50 for Fry. 15:07 for Trautmann.
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  #40  
Old 06-03-18, 07:42 AM
LoveCrossCountry LoveCrossCountry is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mathking View Post
By the way, this does not mean he isnít one of the all time greats.
Agreed. Fresh, Horter would have won that 3200, but he just ran an hour before. Too quick a turn around to win that second race against a talented field.
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  #41  
Old 06-03-18, 08:00 AM
LoveCrossCountry LoveCrossCountry is offline
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Mark Croghan! Anyone honestly question whether a 3 time Olympian and 5 time American champion couldn't have stepped it up had he needed to?
I say Croghan is obviously one of the best out of Ohio, but I think that's mostly post-high school.

His HS PR was 9:20 for the 3200. I wouldn't put his name in the list of one of the best ever Ohio HS runners. Post HS yes.
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  #42  
Old 06-03-18, 09:18 AM
claynation claynation is offline
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LOL at Croghan being mentioned in this discussion.

Despite his third-place finish in the 3200, Horter is still the greatest distance runner in Ohio HS history. There is no debate. Examine his career season-by-season from the fall of his freshman year and it's clear that no one has accomplished more.
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  #43  
Old 06-03-18, 09:38 AM
mathking mathking is offline
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Division I boys distance odds state meet 2018 (for entertainment purposes only)

Gotta say that is simply not true. He has two XC titles and two track titles. Other people have more. Like Fry. If you want to argue freshman to senior then JJ White has two titles each, with an 8-2-1Ė1 progression in XC. Third at Footlocker, a national meet win in the 2 mile. Sick as a junior or three track wins. Jeff See has more wins and at least as good a frosh to senior year progression as Horter. Kennedyís frosh to senior also compares quite favorably. Sure he is one of the best. But I do not believe you can create a credible argument he is the greatest with no debate.

Last edited by mathking; 06-03-18 at 10:07 AM..
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  #44  
Old 06-03-18, 10:26 AM
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I know I'm feeding the troll, but I thought I'd toss in my two cents. Horter is without question one of the all-time greats. However, there is no way he is the greatest.

If we look solely at cross country, I would not put him before Scharsu, Zishka, Nicholas, Fry or Kennedy. I am willing to listen to any argument, but he's not on my top 5 in cross.
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  #45  
Old 06-03-18, 12:09 PM
claynation claynation is offline
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The quality of Horter's victories elevate him to GOAT status. As I've said already in this thread, the Classes of 2016, 2017, and 2018 are all some of the deepest, most competitive in Ohio history. Ergo, Horter winning two state XC titles in THIS era is more impressive than, say, Zach Wills winning three from 2008-2010 (not that Wills is in this discussion, because he's not, but he serves as an apt example).

When comparing Fry v. Horter, Fry just doesn't have the range/versatility to match up. You can say they are close enough over 3200/5k to call it a wash, or even favor Fry by the absolute SLIGHTEST of margins (though I wouldn't, because Horter has two Division I XC titles in the deepest era in Ohio history, has the most impressive single season in Ohio HS XC history (2017), soloed an 8:48, and 3x All-Ohio at 3200m (again, in the deepest era in Ohio history), but I digress). But Horter is so far and away ahead of Fry at 1600m and especially at 800m that I don't the argument is very close. Horter has the Ohio Division I state record at 1600m (shattering Bob Kennedy's mark by 2 seconds), 2x outdoor and 2x indoor state champ at 1600m (again, and I apologize for continually repeating myself, but this is an extremely important point, DURING THE DEEPEST ERA IN OHIO HS RUNNING HISTORY, so these state titles are more impressive than, say, Jeff See's, whose competition paled in comparison to Horter's), New Balance Nationals Indoor champion in the mile (and we will see what he does at Brooks PR this week), and soloed a 1:50 800m.

When deciding who the greatest distance runner in Ohio HS history is, you're basically saying who has had the most success at 800m, 1600m, 3200m, and in cross country. By all objective and subjective measures, Horter comes out on top. Those of us who've appreciated watching him know he's the best.
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  #46  
Old 06-03-18, 12:32 PM
Seek Up Seek Up is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by claynation View Post
The quality of Horter's victories elevate him to GOAT status. As I've said already in this thread, the Classes of 2016, 2017, and 2018 are all some of the deepest, most competitive in Ohio history. Ergo, Horter winning two state XC titles in THIS era is more impressive than, say, Zach Wills winning three from 2008-2010 (not that Wills is in this discussion, because he's not, but he serves as an apt example).

When comparing Fry v. Horter, Fry just doesn't have the range/versatility to match up. You can say they are close enough over 3200/5k to call it a wash, or even favor Fry by the absolute SLIGHTEST of margins (though I wouldn't, because Horter has two Division I XC titles in the deepest era in Ohio history, has the most impressive single season in Ohio HS XC history (2017), soloed an 8:48, and 3x All-Ohio at 3200m (again, in the deepest era in Ohio history), but I digress). But Horter is so far and away ahead of Fry at 1600m and especially at 800m that I don't the argument is very close. Horter has the Ohio Division I state record at 1600m (shattering Bob Kennedy's mark by 2 seconds), 2x outdoor and 2x indoor state champ at 1600m (again, and I apologize for continually repeating myself, but this is an extremely important point, DURING THE DEEPEST ERA IN OHIO HS RUNNING HISTORY, so these state titles are more impressive than, say, Jeff See's, whose competition paled in comparison to Horter's), New Balance Nationals Indoor champion in the mile (and we will see what he does at Brooks PR this week), and soloed a 1:50 800m.

When deciding who the greatest distance runner in Ohio HS history is, you're basically saying who has had the most success at 800m, 1600m, 3200m, and in cross country. By all objective and subjective measures, Horter comes out on top. Those of us who've appreciated watching him know he's the best.
Good one...
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  #47  
Old 06-03-18, 05:03 PM
mathking mathking is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by claynation View Post
The quality of Horter's victories elevate him to GOAT status. As I've said already in this thread, the Classes of 2016, 2017, and 2018 are all some of the deepest, most competitive in Ohio history. Ergo, Horter winning two state XC titles in THIS era is more impressive than, say, Zach Wills winning three from 2008-2010 (not that Wills is in this discussion, because he's not, but he serves as an apt example).

When comparing Fry v. Horter, Fry just doesn't have the range/versatility to match up. You can say they are close enough over 3200/5k to call it a wash, or even favor Fry by the absolute SLIGHTEST of margins (though I wouldn't, because Horter has two Division I XC titles in the deepest era in Ohio history, has the most impressive single season in Ohio HS XC history (2017), soloed an 8:48, and 3x All-Ohio at 3200m (again, in the deepest era in Ohio history), but I digress). But Horter is so far and away ahead of Fry at 1600m and especially at 800m that I don't the argument is very close. Horter has the Ohio Division I state record at 1600m (shattering Bob Kennedy's mark by 2 seconds), 2x outdoor and 2x indoor state champ at 1600m (again, and I apologize for continually repeating myself, but this is an extremely important point, DURING THE DEEPEST ERA IN OHIO HS RUNNING HISTORY, so these state titles are more impressive than, say, Jeff See's, whose competition paled in comparison to Horter's), New Balance Nationals Indoor champion in the mile (and we will see what he does at Brooks PR this week), and soloed a 1:50 800m.

When deciding who the greatest distance runner in Ohio HS history is, you're basically saying who has had the most success at 800m, 1600m, 3200m, and in cross country. By all objective and subjective measures, Horter comes out on top. Those of us who've appreciated watching him know he's the best.
There is no way, shape or form you can argue that Horter's senior cross country season was superior to Fry's. National Champion and undefeated. I don't think you can argue that it was better than Kennedy's either. Same reason. (And remember Kennedy ran against Sence in Ohio and at Footlocker.) Heck I don't even think you can argue that it was superior to JJ White's, who was 3rd at Footlocker and won the state meet against two guys who were among the four in the top 10 at Footlocker for Ohio. And remember that all of these guys were running in an era when there was only one national meet so no divided competition. I don't know as much about Scharshu, Pittman or Zishka's senior XC seasons. So to argue that Horter had the most impressive season you have to basically argue that his 14:36 at MMOC makes his season better than the other guys who finished better at the national meet. I am not going to reignite the debate about the length of MMOC because it does not matter. For whatever reason the course is fast, and that day super fast. And Horter didn't win that race. So couldn't we argue that Kreft had a better season? In any event it is not clear nor do I even think true to argue that his was the most impressive single season in Ohio XC history. Fry and Kennedy won nationals and were undefeated. As for XC career, I don't think you can argue it was the best. Kennedy and White (to name just two) both had as good or better finishes in AAA/D1 for each year of the HS careers and finished better nationally. White doing it in an era when Ohio XC was probably it's best in comparison to the nation.

On to the subject of track times. Dustin's times are without a doubt phenomenal. I do think he is one of the greatest of all time. But his PR races in track were fresh races in the evening. His mile even had pace setters. There is a big difference between this and running in the heat of the day. Fry ran a faster 3200 under much less optimal conditions, after a 4:08 1600 at the state meet to complete a double. So in the state meet Horter ran 1 second faster in the 1600 and 19 seconds slower in the 3200 for 1st and 3rd. So I don't think there is any doubt that Fry's state meet performance in track was superior. He beat Horter's set in evening under great conditions fresh 3200 PR during the day after having run a 1600 only a second slower than Horter ran to win the state meet. If you don't think that Fry could have run faster than his 4:08.01 if he had run a just a 1600 at night with pace setters then you were not watching him run at the state meet that year. He also won Golden West as well as the Jr. National 5000. Horter has a faster 800 time. But 800 PR times depend on getting a chance to run the 800 fresh to get a fast time. Not every coach and athlete puts a priority on that. I know that Fry ran relay splits faster than his purported high school 800 PR because I watched them. And I saw him run the 4x400 relay in some fast times. So Horter being inarguably better than Fry rests on his having a faster 800 PR.
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  #48  
Old 06-03-18, 05:20 PM
ToledoXC ToledoXC is offline
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Not winning Footlocker disqualifies Horter from GOAT status. He needed to either double yesterday with a sub 9:00 3200 or break Kennedy's 1600 record. He didn't do either. Kennedy also went and won NCAAs as a freshman, would be surprised if Horter is an All-American.
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  #49  
Old 06-03-18, 05:28 PM
LoveCrossCountry LoveCrossCountry is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by claynation View Post
The quality of Horter's victories elevate him to GOAT status. As I've said already in this thread, the Classes of 2016, 2017, and 2018 are all some of the deepest, most competitive in Ohio history. Ergo, Horter winning two state XC titles in THIS era is more impressive than, say, Zach Wills winning three from 2008-2010 (not that Wills is in this discussion, because he's not, but he serves as an apt example).

When comparing Fry v. Horter, Fry just doesn't have the range/versatility to match up. You can say they are close enough over 3200/5k to call it a wash, or even favor Fry by the absolute SLIGHTEST of margins (though I wouldn't, because Horter has two Division I XC titles in the deepest era in Ohio history, has the most impressive single season in Ohio HS XC history (2017), soloed an 8:48, and 3x All-Ohio at 3200m (again, in the deepest era in Ohio history), but I digress). But Horter is so far and away ahead of Fry at 1600m and especially at 800m that I don't the argument is very close. Horter has the Ohio Division I state record at 1600m (shattering Bob Kennedy's mark by 2 seconds), 2x outdoor and 2x indoor state champ at 1600m (again, and I apologize for continually repeating myself, but this is an extremely important point, DURING THE DEEPEST ERA IN OHIO HS RUNNING HISTORY, so these state titles are more impressive than, say, Jeff See's, whose competition paled in comparison to Horter's), New Balance Nationals Indoor champion in the mile (and we will see what he does at Brooks PR this week), and soloed a 1:50 800m.

When deciding who the greatest distance runner in Ohio HS history is, you're basically saying who has had the most success at 800m, 1600m, 3200m, and in cross country. By all objective and subjective measures, Horter comes out on top. Those of us who've appreciated watching him know he's the best.
I think Horter perhaps has the greatest range, but I'm not sure that's the criteria for best distance runner. The 800 and arguably even the 1600 are mid-distance races.

It is always difficult to pick the best when looking at different eras, but to pick the best 'distance runner', I think you need to focus on the 3200 and cross country. Andrew Jordan holds the state meet record at 3200 and in cross country for D1. He also has a faster time than Horter in the 3200, and arguably in cross country if you discount the 14:36 Horter ran that many view as suspect. Scott Fry was faster at 3200 than Horter and also in cross country, again if you discount the 14:36 of Horter, and Alan Scharsu ran that 8:44 2 mile. And, as some have said, there are others that are in the conversation too.
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  #50  
Old 06-03-18, 05:51 PM
Newton's Third Newton's Third is offline
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I do not intend to get involved. I think the poster pushing Horter as clearly the greatest is just trolling. In my eyes to be the greatest a person has to hold the most titles or the fastest in one or many areas and Horter is neither. Those that hold some type of what I consider worthy of consideration at the top are in no order Sharsu, Zishka, Fry, Kennedy.
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  #51  
Old 06-03-18, 07:06 PM
claynation claynation is offline
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To clarify, I am not trolling. I believe Horter is the greatest high school distance runner in Ohio history. (Remember, we’re talking about HS only here. So don’t cite NCAA success to bolster your argument for Kennedy.)

ToledoXC, why did he need to get Kennedy’s record yesterday when he already broke it at the Mason Invitational?
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  #52  
Old 06-03-18, 07:25 PM
Newton's Third Newton's Third is offline
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Originally Posted by claynation View Post
why did he need to get Kennedyís record yesterday when he already broke it at the Mason Invitational?
The record is held by Kidder. Borchers and Zishka are also currently faster. The technicality of not having a camera at 1600 meters does not change that these three ran 9.5 meters farther in a time faster than Horter. Things like this do matter when you are comparing athletes. He has the summer to change this but for now he is not the fastest.
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  #53  
Old 06-03-18, 07:27 PM
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I am thoroughly enjoying this discussion. Am not well-qualified to comment on the merits of the runners being discussed, but to clarify, Horter did not have "pacesetters" when breaking BK's 1600 record. He had a pacesetter (singular) for about 550 meters before soloing the rest of the way. Scharsu was the best runner I ever directly competed against. Man, was he good.
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  #54  
Old 06-03-18, 07:29 PM
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  #55  
Old 06-03-18, 07:44 PM
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Dustin is without a doubt amoungst the top group, but state titles must be won and then what happens beyond the season.

Zach Wills was a pretty good runner.
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  #56  
Old 06-03-18, 09:48 PM
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Originally Posted by claynation View Post
To clarify, I am not trolling. I believe Horter is the greatest high school distance runner in Ohio history. (Remember, weíre talking about HS only here. So donít cite NCAA success to bolster your argument for Kennedy.)

ToledoXC, why did he need to get Kennedyís record yesterday when he already broke it at the Mason Invitational?
I will stress again that I don't think you are trolling. As I said, this is actually a fun, respectful argument. For anyone who doubts this, go pick a random thread on the football forum. I think that it is easy to make an argument (and fundamentally obvious) that Horter is in the group of the greatest ever Ohio HS runners. But there is no really strong argument that he is clearly the greatest. He doesn't have the fastest time in any event, he doesn't have the most state titles. He doesn't have the most national titles. He doesn't have the best state meet times. Fry in particular has one more state title and his double still ranks as one of the greatest ever.

In any event, I am going to be interested to see how many of these great Ohio runners in the class of 2018 go on to break 4 minutes. I suspect there will be quite a few. I already told Lucas Bons I am saving up money to fly to Utah to watch him do it in college.
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  #57  
Old 06-04-18, 12:16 PM
ToledoXC ToledoXC is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by claynation View Post
To clarify, I am not trolling. I believe Horter is the greatest high school distance runner in Ohio history. (Remember, we’re talking about HS only here. So don’t cite NCAA success to bolster your argument for Kennedy.)

ToledoXC, why did he need to get Kennedy’s record yesterday when he already broke it at the Mason Invitational?
Because doing it at the state meet and doing it in a regular season invitational where the race was designed for him to run fast are two completely different things. Also, if Horter is the state record holder, why isn't he on this list? http://www.ohsaa.org/sports/staterecords/tf
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  #58  
Old 06-04-18, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by ToledoXC View Post
Because doing it at the state meet and doing it in a regular season invitational where the race was designed for him to run fast are two completely different things. Also, if Horter is the state record holder, why isn't he on this list? http://www.ohsaa.org/sports/staterecords/tf
Excellent question. First it would have to be submitted and it has not been updated for it looks like a few weeks.
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  #59  
Old 06-04-18, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by mathking View Post
I will stress again that I don't think you are trolling. As I said, this is actually a fun, respectful argument. For anyone who doubts this, go pick a random thread on the football forum. I think that it is easy to make an argument (and fundamentally obvious) that Horter is in the group of the greatest ever Ohio HS runners. But there is no really strong argument that he is clearly the greatest. He doesn't have the fastest time in any event, he doesn't have the most state titles. He doesn't have the most national titles. He doesn't have the best state meet times. Fry in particular has one more state title and his double still ranks as one of the greatest ever.

In any event, I am going to be interested to see how many of these great Ohio runners in the class of 2018 go on to break 4 minutes. I suspect there will be quite a few. I already told Lucas Bons I am saving up money to fly to Utah to watch him do it in college.
Unless Lucas is injured constantly, loses interest or has some other thing that makes him leave the sport, he will break 4 minutes for the mile. I think Arjun Jha will one day too.
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